peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I understand the theory, and I like it, but it is circumstantial at best. As you said, we cannot go back in time to test the theory, although, we could go back in time and make an educated guess about what would have happened if Pearl Harbor would have not been attacked. It is easy to see that when making a choice only one can be made, and mine right now is to continue to study this proposition... We do not need to go back in time to know whether this is mathematical or not. If we extend the relation properly we can see that this is undeniable. Continue to think of examples and you will eventually understand what I am saying when I say it is mathematical. We can ponder from now until eternity (don't take me literally), but pondering itself is in the direction of greater satisfaction. At that moment we chose to ponder instead of not ponder. Does that make sense? I hope you will continue to think about this proposition because it will become clearer as more examples are given. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokinjoe9 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 If he was blind and told to pick a path, he would be guessing as to which path is the best one. He would have no way of knowing other than guessing because the necessary information would not be available. I am not saying it would be the right choice if he was told to pick one without knowing what he was picking. Obviously, it could be the worst choice of the three, but this is not what I was referring to. I was only using examples where people were given more than one choice to pick from and showing why the choice they ultimately make is not free. This is the whole of no freewill, this is exactly what you are talking about...It doesn't matter how you spin it, do to the forces beyond our control we will pick a path no matter what happens. If we could go ahead in time we could see the results of the path chosen and say I knew that would happen, but we can't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokinjoe9 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Obviously, it could be the worst choice of the three, but this is not what I was referring to. Why does he choose the path he does... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Clay, no matter what example you give me, the principle holds true. He chose what he chose because any other alternative that he was offered at that moment, was the least preferable alternative. Therefore, there was only one possible choice open to him at that moment and that is the one that gave him the greatest satisfactiobn. This is why his will is not free.Semantics, semantics, is what we have here. Define the word free. One can choose to do what satisfies their desires. I'm free to choose, right? Define will. To seek that which I desire. By your own definition, I can choose to do that which I desire. I believe that what you are describing defines free will. I personally believe in determinism, but for entirely different reasons than the merry-go-round that you are describing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokinjoe9 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 If he was blind and told to pick a path, he would be guessing as to which path is the best one. I like that word, GUESSING, let's look at it for a minute...We know what that word means, and we do it alot. Where does it fit in with the theory, sometimes it is all we have to make our choice. A choice based on a guess, please help me here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokinjoe9 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 . I personally believe in determinism I also believe in determinism, the choices made determine where we go next, they cannot be changed once they have been made, but as we make more desicions the path we go down continually changes, again to be determined along the way and so it goes until death...Well maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I also believe in determinism, the choices made determine where we go next, they cannot be changed once they have been made, but as we make more desicions the path we go down continually changes, again to be determined along the way and so it goes until death...Well maybe? Smokinjoe9, that is exactly right because each choice we make becomes part of our reportoir of experience. I make completely different choices today than I did ten years because my life circumstances have changed. What I found satisfying then is not what I find satisfying now. This is life and the reason mankind is in a more developed stage than he was 1000 years ago and why he will be in a more developed stage 1000 years hence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 OK, so the scenario is this. At the company christmas party all of the gifts people bring are numbered and placed under the tree. For each gift the number is written on a small square of paper and dropped in a basket. Later the basket is shaken and I am asked to reach in blindly and pick a square. I might decide to pick the first square I touch or I might wriggle my hand about and pick some other square. You are saying though that I am not making this choice freely, that I am picking the square that satisfies me the most and that I am determined to pick even though I could not know the outcome of my choice. Please point me to the post that proves this, I must have missed it. There is no specific post that points this out, but if you understand that every choice we make is in the direction of greater satisfaction you will be able to figure this example out as well. First of all, you could not know the outcome of your choice as far as which square is the best pick so that would not be included in determining the motive for your choice. Determining which square to pick, the first one you touch or a different one, is your set of options at that moment. If you decide to wriggle your hand and pick another one, at that moment this was the better choice which means that moving your hand around gave you greater satisfaction. Your desire to wriggle your hand around may be nothing more than that you like the feel of the squares as you dig your hand into the bag. Whatever the reason you chose to wriggle your hand over choosing the first square you felt, it still remains that you got greater satisfaction out of doing it one way than another, at that precise moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 OK, so the scenario is this. At the company christmas party all of the gifts people bring are numbered and placed under the tree. For each gift the number is written on a small square of paper and dropped in a basket. Later the basket is shaken and I am asked to reach in blindly and pick a square. I might decide to pick the first square I touch or I might wriggle my hand about and pick some other square. You are saying though that I am not making this choice freely, that I am picking the square that satisfies me the most and that I am determined to pick even though I could not know the outcome of my choice. Please point me to the post that proves this, I must have missed it.First, there is no way you could prove you would have done any differently than you did. To do that, you would have to prepare the exact same circumstances which is physically impossible. But suppose you could recreate the situation exactly. What would cause you to choose anything other than the square you chose the first time? If the answer is "nothing," then you have free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 This is the whole of no freewill, this is exactly what you are talking about...It doesn't matter how you spin it, do to the forces beyond our control we will pick a path no matter what happens. If we could go ahead in time we could see the results of the path chosen and say I knew that would happen, but we can't... We have to pick something in our environment from moment to moment because, as was stated throughout the entire discussion, we would remain in one spot, which would be death. We are compelled, by our very nature, to pick choices all through life that we believe are best for us not worst. In other words, sometimes we don't have all the information that allows us to make the most objective choice. Even though we are always correcting our mistakes based on past experience, the fact remains that given our limited circumstances, knowledge, and options, we must pick the choice that gives us the greatest satisfaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Why does he choose the path he does... I have no clue why some people go down certain paths because I am not them and have no way of knowing what gives them greater satisfaction. We are all different to a degree which is why some people, given the best advice from someone else, will reject it for a choice that might appear detrimental in the eyes of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 First, there is no way you could prove you would have done any differently than you did.I didn't say I could. I asked for proof that that my choice was determined. I don't think that can be proven either. Can you prove either one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 First, there is no way you could prove you would have done any differently than you did. To do that, you would have to prepare the exact same circumstances which is physically impossible. But suppose you could recreate the situation exactly. What would cause you to choose anything other than the square you chose the first time? If the answer is "nothing," then you have free will. If you were given the same exact circumstance, how is it possible for there to be a different outcome knowing will is not free. It is impossible. This is hypothetical because once something occurs, there is no other outcome that could have happened. As far as recreating the situation exactly, how could there be the possibility of another choice? That is impossible unless you are talking about a new situation that has not yet taken place. I am not sure what you mean when you say that if the same situation would not cause any other choice, that makes your will free. Once a choice is made, it could have been no other way which proves that will is not free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Let me get this straight...What you are saying is the choices we make, make no difference because we make them? Since we make the choice we make, it is the right choice all the time, but it doesn't matter because we would have made that choice anyway, even if we made a different choice it doesn't matter because that is the choice we made....Hence - No Freewill, hehe, what a paradox, hey I had this same problem with a program I wrote years ago, it just kept looping and looping, I could have left it, but I control broke it instead, but I now know that is what I would have done anyway :eek: I never said that our choices make no difference because we make them. Sometimes are choices turn out to be the wrong ones looking back in hindsight so we correct our choices the next time a similar situation comes up. I am not sure what you meant by your last comment. We can predict our behavior oftentimes because we know our reactions to things but that does not mean we are predestined to act a certain way if we choose not to. Our fate is not controlled by something outside of ourselves causing us to act that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokinjoe9 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I have no clue why some people go down certain paths because I am not them and have no way of knowing what gives them greater satisfaction. We are all different to a degree which is why some people, given the best advice from someone else, will reject it for a choice that might appear detrimental in the eyes of others. My question was about the blind person with multiple paths of unknown origin because they cannot be seen. Why would he/she choose the path chosen. Also, how would that be the path of the most satisfaction? If the blind person just guessed at the path(which is what I would do) is that the path of greatest satisfaction? I understand that once the path had been chosen the result would be unchangable(after the fact). no matter which path is taken it will produce a different result. My question remains, which path will he/she choose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokinjoe9 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Riddle me this.....Pick a number from 1 to 100, any number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokinjoe9 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Is the number you chose leading you down the path to greater satisfaction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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