Smokinjoe9 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 pick another number.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokinjoe9 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Repeat.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokinjoe9 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I can't help it....Ok, my point is, when does the lack of free will come into effect, before the number is chosen, or after... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I can't help it....Ok, my point is, when does the lack of free will come into effect, before the number is chosen, or after... The lack of free will is unchangeable, it does not matter whether a choice has been made or not made. The point is that everytime we move at all, we are making an unconscious decision to move away from what dissatisfies us to what is more satisfyiing. this is very difficult to understand but it is the basis of the rest of this knowledge. I hope you all get it because I feel alone in this. I am not giving up. I am just beginning and you are a group that I believe in because you don't jump the gun; you are not attacking me to prove your point, I see the difference with different audiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Semantics, semantics, is what we have here. Define the word free. One can choose to do what satisfies their desires. I'm free to choose, right? Define will. To seek that which I desire. By your own definition, I can choose to do that which I desire. I believe that what you are describing defines free will. I personally believe in determinism, but for entirely different reasons than the merry-go-round that you are describing. There is absolutely no semantics in this. Free is the ability to choose, but the choice we make (in the end) is not free. Can you not see that you are the proponent of one who says we are free in the sense of picking our choices, which is absolutely true, but you have missed the other side of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 There is absolutely no semantics in this. Free is the ability to choose, but the choice we make (in the end) is not free. Can you not see that you are the proponent of one who says we are free in the sense of picking our choices, which is absolutely true, but you have missed the other side of the equation.PG- This thread gets the award for the most circuitous discussion I have ever seen. I am pretty convinced that you could have consolidated all of your first 60+ posts into 3 paragraphs. But I am not sure that the paragraphs would be internally consistent if you did. The above post is a great example of inexplicable text. It is impossible to read this and extract any meaning. Could you offer a single concise post that describes your position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I can't help it....Ok, my point is, when does the lack of free will come into effect, before the number is chosen, or after... Lack of free will does not change. But only after you choose can you not go back in time to change the outcome. What is done is done. But we all can look forward to is the future even though the past is written in stone. :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 PG- This thread gets the award for the most circuitous discussion I have ever seen. I am pretty convinced that you could have consolidated all of your first 60+ posts into 3 paragraphs. But I am not sure that the paragraphs would be internally consistent if you did. The above post is a great example of inexplicable text. It is impossible to read this and extract any meaning. Could you offer a single concise post that describes your position? You are entitled to your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I like that word, GUESSING, let's look at it for a minute...We know what that word means, and we do it alot. Where does it fit in with the theory, sometimes it is all we have to make our choice. A choice based on a guess, please help me here.... Guessing is a choice based on lack of knowledge; so what? It is not inconsistent with determinism. The two are not mutually exclusive. I guess about things a lot; my choice to guess about something is what gives me greater satisfaction than not to guess. Where is the conflict? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishteacher73 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Guessing is a choice based on lack of knowledge; so what? It is not inconsistent with determinism. The two are not mutually exclusive. I guess about things a lot; my choice to guess about something is what gives me greater satisfaction than not to guess. Where is the conflict? Here....Determinism means that there is no free-will and therefore no ability for choice. This does not preclude the illusion of choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 You are entitled to your opinion.I will take it that you are unwilling to offer a concise description of your position, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Here....Determinism means that there is no free-will and therefore no ability for choice. This does not preclude the illusion of choice. Choice is definitely an illusion because it appears that we can choose one thing just as equally as another making it appear as if our will is free; but in reality only one choice can be made at any given time making one choice impossible. If only one choice in any circumstance is possible, causing any other choice in comparison an impossibility, then it is not free at all. We do have the ability to decide which alternative is the most preferable, giving the illusion of free choice. You are so right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I will take it that you are unwilling to offer a concise description of your position, then? Biochemist, I have given my position the entire time I have been here. Have you read the entire thread? I cannot repeat myself; it is too difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishteacher73 Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Choice is definitely an illusion because it appears that we can choose one thing just as equally as another making it appear as if our will is free; but in reality only one choice can be made at any given time making one choice impossible. If only one choice in any circumstance is possible, causing any other choice in comparison an impossibility, then it is not free at all. We do have the ability to decide which alternative is the most preferable, giving the illusion of free choice. You are so right! In a deterministic universe we do not have any ability to decide, choose, opt, or select, you just are and do. There is no option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Let me help parse this for you. I am not trying to be difficult. I am trying to help you communicate.Choice is definitely an illusion because it appears that we can choose one thing just as equally as another making it appear as if our will is free; but in reality only one choice can be made at any given time making one choice impossible. This sentence says that choice in an illusion because choice in an illusion. You could have stopped with "choice in an illusion", and it would have been clearer.If only one choice in any circumstance is possible, causing any other choice in comparison an impossibility, then it is not free at all. We do have the ability to decide which alternative is the most preferable, giving the illusion of free choice. You are so right!The second sentence in this excerpt is a non-sequitur with the first. If we have no choice, we cannot decide anything. If you meant that we can appear to decide, then these last two sentences are redundant with the first phrase in the first excerpt. In that case, this whole paragraph reduces to "Choice is an illusion". Does this make sense to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Biochemist, I have given my position the entire time I have been here. Have you read the entire thread? I cannot repeat myself; it is too difficult.I apologize if I am stressing you out. I did not mean to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Has anyone managed to associate science with this discussion? It does kind of look like uniform circular motion to me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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