The Bible, and reasons why not to allow kids to read it

[CerebralEcstasy]

Many read the bible but miss the message entirely, no matter what age.

 

I recall reading the bible at 12, and finding it difficult in some respects to comprehend. Most parents choose to opt for a children's bible, which tends to tone down some of the more racier bits. I chose to read the KJV for myself, as I had questions my "children's" bible couldn't answer.

 

One could pick out several points, as some have already done in earlier posts and take them entirely out of context using them for their own purposes, whatever they may be.

 

However, those who are more familiar with the writings might glean different information from it.

 

I would liken it to an inorganic chemistry text, where some individuals who were interested in such things, and had some formal training in the sciences would be able to understand what was written with little to no instruction.

 

As opposed to Billy-Bob from Hicksville, who is more interested in figuring out whether the Dodge has a bigger and better engine than that found in the Ford would understand something different and might require a teacher to assist him in learning from it.

 

Whichever side you happen to be on, I've always found it rather interesting how the bible appeals to both laymen and professional, to the rich, to the poor, and so forth.

[TheBigDog]

The bible is there for those who seek it, and it is there for those who ridicule and deride it. To each their own. I have no problem with people reading the bible, or having their kids read it. Christian religions exist to interpret the meaning of the bible. When people find comfort in such interpretations they are welcome as individuals to join in the accomanying belief systems.

 

It is not my role to mandate the role the bible plays in bringing comfort to people. It is not my role to critisize the meanings that people draw from the reading of the bible. It only become my role when such interpretations become a liability to myself, my family or my society (chosen culture).

 

For ages believers and non-believers have manged to peachfully coexist. This will continue in the future. Why do secularists make such a big deal of peoples personal choice to have faith in God and to live my an interpretation of the bible, to the point of ridicule (not going to the worst cases of war), while demanding from them open mindedness that is not granted in return?

 

I am not trying to stir up that every secularist/atheist/agnostic/whatever you call yourself this week who posts here is a closed minded imbicile. But step back and look objectivly at the tone used to describe person's of faith and tell me it is not insulting. These are not unintelligent people. They are people who see the same world and make a different choice.

 

Bill

[ughaibu]

TheBigDog: I've been active on internet fora, dealing with various subjects, for about five years. During that five years I have seen almost no mention of god or religion, on any other board. One of the first things that struck me about this site was the large number of threads about creationism, there are also a bunch of missionist threads started by various posters. The majority of these and other threads concerning religion, such as this present thread, are posted by religious members and often address no scientific enquiry, as this is a dedicated science forum, it is not surprising that some members find this stream of religion intrusive and annoying, that their patience wears thin and this shows in their posts is also no surprise.

[Edella]

The bible is there for those who seek it...

 

And for those who don't.Many of us non-religious types are approached frequently by those spreading the Word...Imagine having atheists coming to your door to show you "The Way"

To each their own

How could Evangelical missionaries then do their work?

Why do secularists make such a big deal of peoples personal choice to have faith in God

I have no problems with people's faith,I respect faith as such,but when someone starts talking about knowledge and truth,we are in the realm of science and all claims can be challenged,dissected and studied.

I am not trying to stir up that every secularist/atheist/agnostic/whatever you call yourself this week who posts here is a closed minded imbicile. But step back and look objectivly at the tone used to describe person's of faith and tell me it is not insulting. These are not unintelligent people. They are people who see the same world and make a different choice.

Whatever you call yourself this week ?Do you see that your doing exactly what you are accusing secularists/atheists/agnostics/whatevers of doing?I would never say this to a Baptist/Presbyterian/Catholic/Lutheran or whatever Christians call themselves these days.

 

 

If one has faith,fine I can't touch that.But remember this is a science forum and claims that one has knowledge or "The Truth" will be challenged if not backed up by something more than faith.BigDog,I agree with you that people should respect people's faith(or lack thereof),I would ask in return that people respect the right of science to question everything.Respect is a two-way street.

[Cedars]

what is the reason some people say that people should not let their kids read the Bible?

 

I can supose that some of the same people who say that let kids watch movies and be around questionable people.

 

The only use I had as a parent with letting my kid read the bible was to allow knowledge of what the believers were referencing, when confronted with religion based questions.

 

Fortunately the sheer boredom of reading this text resolved the issues of whether or not it was a good parental move to introduce this young mind to the horror that is the Christian God. Others have posted references to the overt crimes against humanity that God is credited with in many different threads so I dont need to go over that part again. But I will add this following link to add to the reasonings.

 

A newsgroup post that sums it up well:

Subject: Christianity - A Fundamentally Immoral Religion? (20 Aug 97)

 

http://www.geocities.com/mn_cedars/TWopEd.htm

[Boerseun]

Freedom of Religion also means Freedom from Religion.

[IDMclean]

Percisely.

[cwes99_03]

Looking over the last 10 posts I see a lot of people divided on the issue.

 

Some say they should be allowed to be free from people "harassing" them about their religious beliefs. I quesiton this thought. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they have been commanded to teach others about God and Jesus. Thus they go from house to house looking to talk to people about their beliefs. Do they come and kidnap you and brainwash you? Not so far as I know, though some did use a foot in the door technique to keep you from closing the door, which I found in bad taste. I don't believe they do that anymore anywhere.

At the same time, I expect if someone felt strongly enough about this topic, that they would do the same, going door to door teaching people about the evils they see in believing the Bible. Some on this very website do just that, which BTW is not allowed per forum rules.

Now, one person said they couldn't believe that topics like this would be discussed on a self-described science forum. Well, that's kind of closed-minded as those of us who post on the theology forum do enjoy discussing topics of religious belief in a scientific manner. We have had discussions on this site about whether someone can say that something is truth if it takes faith to believe it, and we've found that there are a lot of things in science that are purported as truth in journals, while most people can only accept it as truth on basis of faith in the scientist reporting the findings. ( Look at Korea's cloning incident a few months back and see that what was reported in an incredibly respected journal didn't turn out as a hoax. )

BigDog,I agree with you that people should respect people's faith(or lack thereof),I would ask in return that people respect the right of science to question everything.Respect is a two-way street.

I think that was moderately well said, so I'll second this. Question away at my beliefs, but have fun trying to break me of them, I've been studying the Bible for about 18 years.

 

Now on to the question at hand. Should children be allowed to read the Bible?

To this I ask, should parents be required to teach their children what is morally right and wrong? If so, what moral standard should they go by? I believe that the moral situation is in decline for two reasons. 1) parents stopped teaching their children morality (the reasons for this are various and I don't expect to discuss them here) 2) parents decided that they would make up their own morality and teach their children that (often for the same reasons as (1) and this I believe is more fatal because children see right through these made up moral laws when you don't do them yourself, but that is a flaw of the teacher.)

The Bible in and of itself teaches morality the same way it has for some 3500 years. The teachers of this moral law have changed over the same time period, and their attempts to adjust it to fit their own understanding and wants happened as well. Many appauling things have been done in the name of the Bible and the christian God, including revisions of the Bible to make it fit the current human philosophy and scientific views. This to me is wrong, and according to the Bible it is wrong as well (you may argue this point, but you would not be arguing the words of the Bible but your own understanding of what those words may or may not mean.)

 

If you are willing to undertake the task of "teaching your young children from infancy" lessons on morality, I applaud you. I cannot tell you what or how to do this, but I feel that the Bible itself is a fine source considering you understand it yourself. Only you can say how well you understand it. Only you can determine how well someone else may understand it.

But here is the sticking point, do they use the Bible in teaching it, or do they use some persons view on the Bible from 1000 years ago who also did not cite biblical scripture in their writing. The books of the Bible were determined nearly 2000 years ago by the last of the apostles. Those same books have been used by the majority of christian religions ever since. Some modernists want to include other books that were never mentioned before 300AD after all the apostles had been long gone, but the majority of christianity still views these as non-biblical works of men. Those words are little changed in 2000 years but those who supposedly teach them rarely use them. Instead they confirmedly say they teach the tradition of the church, even if it goes against the words of the Bible (for example the celebrations of christmas, easter, haloween, veneration of the saints, saying prayers to Mary, acceptance of homosexuality, acceptance of extramarital sexual relationships, etc.)

 

Do you have to use the entire Bible? Again this is your choice. There are many scientific articles out there that contain some meaningful science data even if the end conclusions were wrong (don't begin to think that I feel the same way about the Bible, but many do). The data in those studies was still accurate, even if the conclusions weren't.

 

Was the author of this thread's view that we need to find a consensus as a group and then abide by it? I don't think it was, but that would certainly be wrong. It is up to each one of us personally to decide these things and hopefully make the right decision. You can only make that decision if you have done your due diligence in attempting to understand the words themselves and not just one person's interpretation of them. This may take seeking a more knowledgeable source than your own person.

[TheBigDog]

...while most people can only accept it as truth on basis of faith in the scientist reporting the findings.

This is a great point. Much of what I know or accept as fact I do so based upon my faith in those who are telling it to me. Especially when you get into the very deepest conversations about the beginning of things. I take what I know, weigh it, ponder it, and come to a conclusion. With all the bright minds we find here, if given the same set of facts they will all draw differing conclusions - even on very basic things. Given that set of facts, we must see that it is only through accepting our differing beliefs, and continuing to engage in productive conversatoni about them, that we will ever live peacefully together. It is not by obliterating those things that you see as being wrong.

 

Bill

[Cedars]

Looking over the last 10 posts I see a lot of people divided on the issue.

 

Was the author of this thread's view that we need to find a consensus as a group and then abide by it? I don't think it was, but that would certainly be wrong. It is up to each one of us personally to decide these things and hopefully make the right decision. You can only make that decision if you have done your due diligence in attempting to understand the words themselves and not just one person's interpretation of them. This may take seeking a more knowledgeable source than your own person.

 

 

As I understood this threads meaning was to ask those who Do Not think the Bible is appropriate reading material for children and their reasons why.

 

Nothing posted here in this thread so far, will prevent any other person from believing whatever it is they choose to believe. No one will be impeaded from using the Bible to teach their children if they so chose to do so, via any words posted here that run contrary to some idealisms on the Bibles place in a childs growing mind. But there are people who do not respect the totality of the Bible and feel to teach morality, one does not need to use these teachings. And they have their reasons why. They were asked those reasons why in this thread.

 

This thread was not put into the Theology forum, it is posted in Philosophy and Humanities. You may not agree with or like the answers you see, but in an open forum that will come about when people answer such questions. You dont have to like it. You dont even have to respect it. But dont you think its good to know another point of view exists and why?

[cwes99_03]

Was that a quesiton for me?

[Freddy]

Let kids read the Bible just stop indoctrinating them into believing the nonsense.

[Cedars]

Was that a quesiton for me?

Yes it was. As I read your post I struggled to find one single example where you addressed the topic. What exactly are your thoughts on "the Bible, and reasons why not to allow kids to read it" As I read more of your post, I saw nothing regarding this part and a challenge for those who so desire to "have fun trying to break them [your beliefs]."

 

Instead of answering the question, you pose your own "To this I ask, should parents be required to teach their children what is morally right and wrong? If so, what moral standard should they go by?"

and this:

"but I feel that the Bible itself is a fine source considering you understand it yourself."

 

I would also disagree that morality has gone into a 'decline'. I attribute much of what is being touted as a decline to a number of factors including better law enforcement tools, more things being considered a crime, better documentation of the human condition, more freedom for women, people of color, etc. and most significantly, the comfort of people to be honest when responding to questions regarding aspects of their lives, which are used as markers for deciding what is what, for the statistical branches of the bureacracy.

 

I think I do understand the Bible enough that I dont have to skip over parts and dismiss other parts so it will appear as a moderate and paletable opinion of God's wishes of/from people. The link I posted compares the final judgment of the Christian God to the concentration camps of WW2 in a very articulate way. I do not understand how anyone can support such a horror, from any being, whether it considers itself a God or not.

 

I always wondered why there was no commandment from this being of absolutes of "thou shall not own people".

 

The Bible is nothing more than another group of religious Bigots demands on the world in an Us or Them mentality that is used, even to this day, to rally its members around whatever action is needed to instill fear and compliance from/of those who are of a different opinion. Over and over within the pages of that book are stories of conquer and destruction of those who fall outside the boundries of Us and religates Them to slavery or death (and dont forget the eternal damnation of people who fall under Them). I dont know how anyone can justify raising their child under the influence of this kind of idealism.

[cwes99_03]

I guess my point, while not stated specifically, was that you cannot judge whether or not to use the Bible in teaching kids if you yourself do not have an understanding of the Bible in some way.

If you believe that you have an understanding of the Bible, and you think that it teaches a lot of good things, then you will most likely use it to teach your kids those same good things.

If you believe that you have an understanding of the Bible, and you think that it teaches a lot of horrible inhuman things, then you will most likely use it not to teach kids, but to put down others who believe differently than you do.

If you believe that you have an understanding of the Bible, and it turns out in your kid's eyes that you have no understanding of the Bible for the good or the bad, but you still use the Bible to teach your kids what you perceive it says is good without backing up your teachings scripturally, then your kids will only learn that you are stupid and that the Bible is a bunch of lies.

If you believe that you have an understanding of the Bible, and it turns out in your kid's eyes that you have no understanding of the Bible for the good or the bad, but you still use the Bible to teach your kids what you perceive it says in a bad way (i.e. you think it is a bunch of hypocritical teachings and you teach your kids thusly) then your kids may begin to think that the Bible is evil, or they may see through your excuses when later in life they decide to find out for themselves.

[Cedars]

OK lets start with this one quote from you.

If you believe that you have an understanding of the Bible, and you think that it teaches a lot of horrible inhuman things, then you will most likely use it not to teach kids, but to put down others who believe differently than you do.

I am curious about the assumptions made by you with this. Do you personally know someone who uses the Bible to put down others who believe differently than one who does, when raising their children? A kind of example of what NOT to do, when trying to teach your children about good/evil. I am not talking about your experiences with type written words on a forum, I am talking about knowing a parent who uses the Bible to put down others, to influence their children, without it being a response by this parent to conditions I list below.

 

Because to be honest with you, I did not raise my child with any comprehension of God belief. Religion and the items used by the religious to confirm their faith was a non-issue in my home, until the children who were religious started bringing up the issue of Jesus and God in schools (like on the playground, not as a part of the curriculum). Just so you can comprehend what I am talking about, this information told to my child was hideously similar to the web page I put a link to. The only time I used the Bible was in self defense for some horrible issue brought into my childs life by those using the Bible as their moral guide.

 

You have no idea the impact this had on my child and the things that we needed to discuss, such as how my child is not going to hell because Jesus wasnt a part of his/her life. This was information gleened from Christian kids, not from a non-believing parent trying to insure that this child held a bigotry towards any flavor of religion.

 

And please do not respond with "well they werent interpreting the Bible correctly". Their words were a direct result of many local/national/world known persons interpretation of what the Bible says, and a common lesson taught to most, if not all, Christian children in their formative years while trying to ensure the God idea is a part of the Christian childs thought process.

 

BTW, this was children in 3rd grade. It got worse from this point until around 9th grade, when children often start to see the wrong idealisms a parent, community, society holds. As a parent, I was GRATEFUL for the rebelious years of youth which allowed SOME of these societally approved of religious bigots, to start looking at my child from a more open minded point of view, and some of them actually began to treat my child as an equal human being, rather than the pariah label once relegated upon this little person. You cannot begin to comprehend the emotional pain this child went thru during very influential growth years via the intolerance inherant in religion.

 

How exactly would you suggest a parent deal with such an issue that is so ingrained in a society? Yes, the Bible does teach alot of horrible and inhumane things. It is about bigotry against others who believe different and an excellent guideline to propel that separation of people. And why is that wrong to teach someone to stay away from this idealism that is so intolerant of others singularily because of an issue of 'faith'?

[IDMclean]

I would not even go so far as to teach it as wrong, I would love to sit down with my kids and read them portions of the Bible, Kuran, Gita, Torah, and Tao Te Ching. Then discuss with them what it is that they think the texts are trying to teach. It would be fun. Also by having those kinds of lessons I can teach them tolerance and understanding, I can catch if they decide they like a given religion.

 

It's like drug use, I would prefer that my kids didn't. However if it must be, then I would prefer that the needles be clean and the supply be good and clean.

 

I don't want bigots telling my kids what is what in terms of religion, however I also don't want those bigots to have so called divine knowledge over my kids. I found it personally gratifying to be able to out argue most casual christians at their own game, due to a greater understand of the bible and it's teachings and stories. Useful to, if some one get's aggressive about recruiting you can slap them down because most come from the position that if you don't believe then it's cause you haven't read the bible. Shuts them up quick when you begin countering with exerpts from the bible.

 

All knowledge is what it is. It is neither good nor evil, it maybe repehensible, but it is better to know and forgot than to never have known in the first place.

[cwes99_03]

I am curious about the assumptions made by you with this. Do you personally know someone who uses the Bible to put down others who believe differently than one who does, when raising their children? A kind of example of what NOT to do, when trying to teach your children about good/evil. I am not talking about your experiences with type written words on a forum, I am talking about knowing a parent who uses the Bible to put down others, to influence their children, without it being a response by this parent to conditions I list below.

Yes, I have known a couple of people. These people taught their children that it was OK to hate people simply because they identified themselves as a Christian. That the Bible was full of

alot of horrible and inhumane things. It is about bigotry against others who believe different and an excellent guideline to propel that separation of people.

. Those same kids would then come to school and try to say that I believed slavery, bigotry, polygamy, ethnic genocide, and other things were OK and then cite scripture from the Bible. Of course when I tried to explain to them where their errant parents or religious leader had misled them, they covered their ears and shouted loudly.

You have no idea the impact this had on my child and the things that we needed to discuss, such as how my child is not going to hell because Jesus wasnt a part of his/her life. This was information gleened from Christian kids, not from a non-believing parent trying to insure that this child held a bigotry towards any flavor of religion...You cannot begin to comprehend the emotional pain this child went thru during very influential growth years via the intolerance inherant in religion.

This was in the second grade, and I did not turn 8 until weeks before I started the third grade. I had one particular student call me a Nazi simply because I believed that I should not salute the flag in the 4th grade. In High school, the attacks came from a new direction where people said that I belonged to a cult because I would not participate in some afterschool programs that would tie up too much of my time.

I also note that you said gleaned from, were these children saying these things directly to your childs face, or was your child just overhearing conversations and asking you questions about their beliefs?

And please do not respond with "well they werent interpreting the Bible correctly". Their words were a direct result of many local/national/world known persons interpretation of what the Bible says, and a common lesson taught to most, if not all, Christian children in their formative years while trying to ensure the God idea is a part of the Christian childs thought process.

I'm sorry, but I am free to respond that they weren't interpreting the bible correctly. In fact, I challenge these very beliefs all the time. No one has ever been able to convince me that there is a place where God sends people to torment them for eternity. Have you ever read such a scripture? Or are you falling into that group that believes what one person said 1000 years ago about what they believed the bible taught and since then has been a doctrine of tradition not of scripture?

Because to be honest with you, I did not raise my child with any comprehension of God belief. Religion and the items used by the religious to confirm their faith was a non-issue in my home, until the children who were religious started bringing up the issue of Jesus and God in schools (like on the playground, not as a part of the curriculum). Just so you can comprehend what I am talking about, this information told to my child was hideously similar to the web page I put a link to. The only time I used the Bible was in self defense for some horrible issue brought into my childs life by those using the Bible as their moral guide...

How exactly would you suggest a parent deal with such an issue that is so ingrained in a society? Yes, the Bible does teach alot of horrible and inhumane things. It is about bigotry against others who believe different and an excellent guideline to propel that separation of people. And why is that wrong to teach someone to stay away from this idealism that is so intolerant of others singularily because of an issue of 'faith'?

Sounds like you did raise your child with comprehension of religion, though possibly not by choice. You took the road that you understood the Bible well enough to pass judgment and teach your kids. Hopefully you made the right decision, I would disagree with your understanding, and only time will tell. I'm saying that everyone does, because at some time or another they are going to have to deal with the very subjects you brought up here.

Is it better to sit back and wait until someone breaches the subject with your children? Do you want your children to go through the heartache you described at such a young age, because you didn't want to discuss it? The common theme today is that you should talk to your kids about everything, including drugs, sex, etc. at a very young age because they will have to deal with it sooner or later.

I personally think that you must first be aware of your own beliefs and be able to back this up when you do so. I wouldn't want you to discuss sex or drugs with your kids if you yourself did not have the information necessary to discuss it. Sadly however this is done daily by parents around the world.