blamski Posted July 26, 2012 Report Posted July 26, 2012 hi all.... its some time since i've been on here. i signed up originally to discuss with people the relationships and tensions between science and art, and got some pretty interesting feedback. now i'd like to introduce and discuss one of my current projects - 'drosophila titanus' - so here's a very brief introduction. i wasn't sure which would be the best section to put this in, so hopefully this is it. i've been generally interested in the science of astrobiology for a while, as well as how and why we conduct bio experiments in space - biosatellites, space shuttle, ISS, etc etc. of course, drosophila melanogaster, as a model organism, has been one of the workhorses of research into how the living organism adapts to the space environment. i've also become fascinated by titan and the incredible world that cassini/huygens has revealed it to be. basically then, my project involves a process of experimentation, conditioning and breeding through artificial selection of drosophila to see if i can push them towards being a new species that would theoretically be capable of survival on titan. i am devising apparatus to select for cold tolerance, pressure tolerance, UV tolerance, circadian rhythm adaptation and so on. flies will be selected for further breeding from the results of these experiments. now, i'm aware that alarm bells will already be going off with most of you. 'titan is way too cold to support life', 'there's no oxygen', 'you can't produce a new species', etc etc. i accept that the end result of this project is impossible, but what interests me more is the process; following a rigorous scientific procedure and seeing how much artistic content i can get out of that. i'm obviously also interested to see what if any changes take place with my flies after a few years of selective breeding. the project also introduces discussion about several related issues: - the species problem, and the lack of agreement on what actually defines one species from another- speciation by artificial means (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html)- the art/science relationship- the concept of the right stuff and suitability for space travel- eugenics and the problematic idea of the 'perfect organism'- and more! one scientific story which has really piqued my interest recently is the one about Syuichi Mori's drosophila being kept in the dark for 57 years - 57 years of darkness i'm having to read up a lot on evolutionary theory (which is lots of fun as its an ever changing minefield), heredity, recessive and dominant genes and traits, phenotypes and genotypes, and all sorts of other stuff. so, i'd love to hear back from any of you that are intrested, that like it, that hate it, that can offer me advice on selection, breeding or experiments. the website for the project (which badly needs updating) is http://www.hostprods.net/projects/quest-for-drosophila-titanus/. you can also follow the development blog with drosophila titanus as the search term here http://hostdev.wordpress.com/category/drosophila-titanus/ Turtle and CraigD 2 Quote
Turtle Posted July 27, 2012 Report Posted July 27, 2012 hi all.... so, i'd love to hear back from any of you that are intrested, that like it, that hate it, that can offer me advice on selection, breeding or experiments. sounds cool. :thumbs_up can't think of any suggestions, but i'm wondering what you feed them. would you also have to send a food plant with them to titan do you think? :ip: Quote
blamski Posted July 27, 2012 Author Report Posted July 27, 2012 fortunately, feeding them on titan isn't a problem i really have to address owing to the theoretical (conceptual) nature of the project. if i was somehow successful in developing a fruit fly that could survive in -180 degrees with no oxygen then i guess i could also do the same for a banana - but i have to admit its unlikely. otherwise i could use standard drosophila media, but that would have to be kept in a heated chamber to stop it freezing solid, which would mean the flies would also have to access the chamber to eat it, which means they'd probably stay there as it would be much more comfortable. then i would also have to get hold of or develop some kind of craft to transport my flies, media and bananas to titan, and that would probably tip the whole project over budget. on the subject of feeding though, right now i am feeding half my stocks with a fairly generic drosophila media mixed with smnall amounts of the amino acid proline. research has shown that drosophila larvae fed with this supplement are much more resistant to freezing. http://the-scientist.com/2012/02/13/freeze-tolerant-flies/ the other option i have, of course, is to wait a few billion years until the sun expands enough to warm titan to almost terrestrial temperatures. Quote
Turtle Posted September 10, 2012 Report Posted September 10, 2012 how goes the project blam? :fly: i checked your links and saw nothing since june. rereading your goals i decided i had missed the art part. anyway, you could glue your dead flies to a board and arranged so as to make an over-all image as was the fashion with butterfly wings in the late 19th early 20th century. throw in some breeding for color & call it Drosophilollage. :lol: e-bray ad Quote
blamski Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Posted September 10, 2012 hey turtle yeah... i know... the long summer months here in spain make it hard to get much in depth work done. kids off school, other projects needing attention, and all that. the project goes on though, and my flies are merrily breeding away. the stage of the project i'm working on now is the cold acclimatisation stage, or at least the bit where i select flies that seem to have a 'preference' for a cooler temperature. i'm feeding them an amino acid called proline after reading this article - http://phys.org/news/2012-02-tolerance-fruit.html. for the experiment i'm building a temperature gradient which will have several tracks with approx 30º at one end and 10º at the other. any flies that gravitate towards the cooler end will be selected and those that don't will be 'retired'. i then need to develop experiments to select for pressure tolerance, atmospheric change tolerance, circadian rhythm change tolerance, etc etc. big questions i have are about the scheduling of the experiments and the resulting selection. should i do all the cold selection first, then pressure.... i.e. sequentially, or is it better to mix it up a bit more? i made a flow chart here - http://hostdev.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/drosophila-breeding-strategies/ and i'd like to know if it is seriously flawed or not, and if so then what is the ideal strategy for artificial selection. its interesting that you are the one asking about this project, and that you'd missed the art references. i've noticed that, for better or worse, you are one of the more rigorous (lets say) members on here - facts and proofs pretty much rule for you, and you have little time for the more... erm... fringe aspects of science. delighted to discuss it with you though of course... in fact i appreciate the occasional rigor test. helps me learn the more scientific method which i think is necessary to prevent this project from becoming totally meaningless artistic narcissism. what i'm more afraid of though, is old pincho paxton or voiceinthewilderness getting wind of it and telling me how it either proves loopy time froth theory or even the existence of god. :shrug: Quote
blamski Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Posted September 10, 2012 oh, and the drosophillage idea :lol: - i love it. it might take me the rest of my life to make a postcard sized one though... Quote
Turtle Posted September 11, 2012 Report Posted September 11, 2012 hey turtle yeah... i know... the long summer months here in spain make it hard to get much in depth work done. kids off school, other projects needing attention, and all that. love all that! interesting that kids get summer vacation in spain; i did not know that. take heart though as fall is in the air. :autumnleaves: do kids trick-or-trick on all hallows' eve there? :hal_jackolantern: but i digress... the project goes on though, and my flies are merrily breeding away. the stage of the project i'm working on now is the cold acclimatisation stage, or at least the bit where i select flies that seem to have a 'preference' for a cooler temperature. i'm feeding them an amino acid called proline after reading this article - http://phys.org/news/2012-02-tolerance-fruit.html. for the experiment i'm building a temperature gradient which will have several tracks with approx 30º at one end and 10º at the other. any flies that gravitate towards the cooler end will be selected and those that don't will be 'retired'. mind you i'm no expert -say no experience- in conducting breeding studies, and mind you that i won't let that stop me from trying to be. :lol: on the proline, i get from your article that some insects make it themselves to use as antifreeze. oui/no? so while feeding your flies proline may protect them in their lifetime, i don't see that effecting a genetic change that enables them to produce their own. or did you even have that in mind? the idea of letting them choose a preference is interesting. my thought was that i would give them all no choice of a lower temp and breed survivors. (starting from say a cool temp. such that on average only 10% survive? again, no experience. :shrug:) i then need to develop experiments to select for pressure tolerance, atmospheric change tolerance, circadian rhythm change tolerance, etc etc. big questions i have are about the scheduling of the experiments and the resulting selection. should i do all the cold selection first, then pressure.... i.e. sequentially, or is it better to mix it up a bit more? i made a flow chart here - http://hostdev.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/drosophila-breeding-strategies/ and i'd like to know if it is seriously flawed or not, and if so then what is the ideal strategy for artificial selection. i don't know anything about at what number of generations an ideal cross is made, or even if there is such thing. my thought on looking at your flowchart is that the more experiments the merrier; except for equipment, expense, and work of course. :omg: so for example, besides crossing your phenotypes 1 & 2, you would concurrently continue each line alone as they started in order to try and make further gains in that particular expression you're selecting for. its interesting that you are the one asking about this project, and that you'd missed the art references. i've noticed that, for better or worse, you are one of the more rigorous (lets say) members on here - facts and proofs pretty much rule for you, and you have little time for the more... erm... fringe aspects of science. delighted to discuss it with you though of course... in fact i appreciate the occasional rigor test. helps me learn the more scientific method which i think is necessary to prevent this project from becoming totally meaningless artistic narcissism. well writ. what i'm more afraid of though, is old pincho paxton or voiceinthewilderness getting wind of it and telling me how it either proves loopy time froth theory or even the existence of god. :shrug: we'll swat those flys if it comes to it. :fly: :fly: Quote
blamski Posted September 12, 2012 Author Report Posted September 12, 2012 mind you i'm no expert -say no experience- in conducting breeding studies, and mind you that i won't let that stop me from trying to be. :lol: on the proline, i get from your article that some insects make it themselves to use as antifreeze. oui/no? so while feeding your flies proline may protect them in their lifetime, i don't see that effecting a genetic change that enables them to produce their own. or did you even have that in mind? the idea of letting them choose a preference is interesting. my thought was that i would give them all no choice of a lower temp and breed survivors. (starting from say a cool temp. such that on average only 10% survive? again, no experience. :shrug:) no, i don't expect a genetic change that enables the flies to produce more of their own natural proline, but i wouldn't have the experience or resources to test whether this was happening or not. its possible, perhaps, that a continued higher level of proline in the flies diet and the resulting increased passage through the gut wall might result in a raised ability to assimilate it. again though, i don't know how i would test for this. IF some of my flies show an increased tolerance for cold (either as larvae or adults) then i'll need to work out a way to explain it, even if its just the fact that eating proline is beneficial in this circumstance. your preferred method of selection is interesting too, and i'll certainly beat it in mind. i guess it would be interesting and informative to run parallel assays to see which of these approaches is more effective across all the conditioning experiments i make. the school of hard knocks for flies, eh? i don't know anything about at what number of generations an ideal cross is made, or even if there is such thing. my thought on looking at your flowchart is that the more experiments the merrier; except for equipment, expense, and work of course. :omg: so for example, besides crossing your phenotypes 1 & 2, you would concurrently continue each line alone as they started in order to try and make further gains in that particular expression you're selecting for. the flow chart is actually simpler now - and i should amend it - as i am only using one phenotype of drosophila, and that is the vestigal wing mutant. partly they are easier to work with - escapees can only walk away quickly and are easily caught, plus the idea of offering flight again in the low grav, high density titan environment is poetically pleasing to my artistic sensibilites. Quote
Turtle Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 no, i don't expect a genetic change that enables the flies to produce more of their own natural proline, but i wouldn't have the experience or resources to test whether this was happening or not. its possible, perhaps, that a continued higher level of proline in the flies diet and the resulting increased passage through the gut wall might result in a raised ability to assimilate it. again though, i don't know how i would test for this. IF some of my flies show an increased tolerance for cold (either as larvae or adults) then i'll need to work out a way to explain it, even if its just the fact that eating proline is beneficial in this circumstance. 10-4 your preferred method of selection is interesting too, and i'll certainly beat it in mind. i guess it would be interesting and informative to run parallel assays to see which of these approaches is more effective across all the conditioning experiments i make. the school of hard knocks for flies, eh? not so much my preferred method as much as my best guess. maybe flies that survive my experiment & breed would lead to offspring predisposed to depression, lethargy, and suicide wheras your survivors would be happy, not worry, and ultimately adapt better. i imagine there must be protocols for genetic studies, though i am unaware of them. the flow chart is actually simpler now - and i should amend it - as i am only using one phenotype of drosophila, and that is the vestigal wing mutant. partly they are easier to work with - escapees can only walk away quickly and are easily caught, plus the idea of offering flight again in the low grav, high density titan environment is poetically pleasing to my artistic sensibilites. roger that. standing down on the pulling off of wings suggestion. :omg: :lol: does having no wings affect reproductive preference? that is, do wingless prefer wingless or winged if they can choose or do winged reject wingless for winged or go for the wingless in a hot way? : :love: :unlove: :QuestionM Quote
blamski Posted September 13, 2012 Author Report Posted September 13, 2012 not so much my preferred method as much as my best guess. maybe flies that survive my experiment & breed would lead to offspring predisposed to depression, lethargy, and suicide wheras your survivors would be happy, not worry, and ultimately adapt better. i imagine there must be protocols for genetic studies, though i am unaware of them. wow, now there's an entire sociological study there in itself. and i'm obviously keen to witness fly suicide... for curiosity's sake. :lightbulb roger that. standing down on the pulling off of wings suggestion. :omg: :lol: does having no wings affect reproductive preference? that is, do wingless prefer wingless or winged if they can choose or do winged reject wingless for winged or go for the wingless in a hot way? : :love: :unlove: :QuestionM i don't have any hard evidence at hand to fall back on, but as far as i know (with apologies to hypography rules) wild type and vestigial, and other phenotypes, mate freely. there's been some interesting research on gut bacteria composition having an effect on mating preference which could actually have some relevance to the proline diet with my own flies. what will happen though, is that the offspring of wild type and vestigial wing flies will be all wild type as vestigial wingness is a recessive trait. are there no drosophila breeders, artificial selectioners, evolutionary theorists, or something out there that can right all my wrongs with this project?? :fly: Quote
Turtle Posted September 14, 2012 Report Posted September 14, 2012 wow, now there's an entire sociological study there in itself. and i'm obviously keen to witness fly suicide... for curiosity's sake. :lightbulb ... snip :fly: can fruit flies swim? winged or wingless? do they have access to open water in your experiments? anyway, i guess it might be hard to tell if a death is suicide or not. anyway, anyway, speaking of not to being, do your flies get any parasites or fungi? i only ask because i was just reading something on insect suicide. i trust it's on topic enough. Suicide Grasshoppers..."It's one of the most horrific things I've ever seen," Loxdale said. "It makes the science fiction film Alien look pretty tame in comparison." "When the grasshopper hits the water, the worm comes out of its rear end and then swims off to find a mate. The worm is about three or four times longer than the host—it's amazing....Hairworms, or Nematomorpha, are a little-known group of parasites, which contains around 300 known species worldwide. Biron, the study author, says the organisms target a wide range of land-based insects, including praying mantises. The French research team studied proteins produced by both the parasite and its host to investigate how hairworms might make grasshoppers hop to their deaths.... good bye cruel titan; i can't live without my proline!!! Quote
blamski Posted September 21, 2012 Author Report Posted September 21, 2012 from my own observations, fruit flies make pretty bad swimmers - in water, in 96% ethanol, in faulty liquified food media, etc etc. it all results in some pretty ungraceful drowning. there are parasites, principally mites, and fungi that can affect drosophila (and can be a total nuisance), but as far as i know they don't alter behaviour. however, there are a whole number of parasites that carry out some fascinating neuro engineering on their hosts to enable them to get to the next host. ants that climb to the top of the nearest tall blade of grass to await being eaten by a sheep, fish that lie belly up near the water surface waiting for a hungry heron, etc etc etc. carl zimmer's book parasite rex has all sorts of great and gory examples. proline dependency in drosophila is an interesting though too. maybe i need to set up some kind of social care program for the ones that get in too deep. well, either that or straight into my collection of hungry and waiting carnivorous plants - its a tricky decision. Quote
blamski Posted March 16, 2013 Author Report Posted March 16, 2013 its going on.... slowly. i've got lots of flies, and i've been putting them through the temperature gradient apparatus and selecting those that hang out at the lower temperature end. i've been showing the interim results at one or two exhibitions (there's one opening next week at genspace in brooklyn if that's near any of you). mostly, right now, i'm keeping my stocks going while waiting for that elusive animal that is arts funding, which i'll know if i have or not next month. in the event that i get it then it'll be full on with collaborating with an evolutionary biologist in the UK, designing and building pressure systems, low temp incubators, atmosphere thingummyjigs and so on. thanks for asking :) Quote
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