What Would Be Proof Of A God Or Gods Running The Universe?

[Buffy]

For those of you who have been following this thread:

 

The wildly and amazingly off-topic posts were pulled out of this thread and moved to "The Topology Of Time, Or The Universe Or Something..." over in the Strange Claims forum

 

I suppose they speak for themselves, but they're not germane to Mr. Moon's OP....and now back to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress...

 

Run, run rabbit run. Dig that hole, forget the sun, and when at last the work is done, don't sit down it's time to dig another one,

Buffy

[Moontanman]

the question posed in the title is not even wrong. inasmuch as "god" and/or gods is/are by definition supernatural, there is no valid scientific assessment let alone a proof. discussing the question as if it is valid is an exercise in futility. and i'm in no small measure somewhat vexed -if not bemused- that it was moonmantan that proposed it. what were you thinking mick!?

 

 

I disagree, while it's true that as long as something remains supernatural it would appear to be unknowable by science which works by natural means I again suggest that if you could, and this is just a for instance and not the only possibility, but if you could pray to a specific god and cause a grape to appear from thin air and do it repeatably in any all contexts and even show others how to do this then it becomes something science can investigate and by definition natural.

 

If evidence of a god could be shown and repeated would that not remove god from the realm of supernatural and bring her into the natural world?

 

Or would any such evidence be assumed to be technology that we simply do not understand?

 

I don't think this question is as simple as god is supernatural therefor outside the realm of science...

[VoiceInTheWilderness]

First I would ask, "Why does it ALWAYS take FAITH in order to believe in God?" And you know, the best answer I can come up with is: "Because faith/trust is the essential ingredient to any Kingdom worth it's salt." Show me a kingdom that doesn't allow the crap to float to the top and block out the Son light, and I'll show you an eternal empire. But that is the way of mankind quite nearly from the 'get go'....he has always proven, empire after empire ad nauseum, to end up dominating his fellow man to his own injury. Just as God's Word has said.

 

That being said, here are some 'proofs' of why I believe not only in the Grand Designer, but that He is Love, just as He said:

 

Youtube: Inner life of a cell

 

Youtube: Flagellar Motor

 

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm

 

http://arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm

 

God's Word is unfolding exactly as foretold, in every detail, and the hour is late, friends.

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm

 

Read Luke 21:25-28 and see the evidence that indeed, heaven and earth are shaking, sun, moon and stars are out of place along with increased agitation of the oceans, exactly as written.

 

What are many doing upon confirmation that these things are indeed taking place? Many sit in silence and hang their heads in sorrow.

 

I say, there is no better time than this moment to turn, or return, to God in Christ! And then have reason to instead, "STAND UP and LIFT UP your heads, for your redemption draws near!"

 

It is God's will that everyone come to an accurate knowledge of Him and the One He sent forth, but He will not abrogate Free Will.

 

I say, if He can save Kirk Martin, He can save me too....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc

 

 

Blessings in Christ

[Moontanman]

First I would ask, "Why does it ALWAYS take FAITH in order to believe in God?" And you know, the best answer I can come up with is: "Because faith/trust is the essential ingredient to any Kingdom worth it's salt." Show me a kingdom that doesn't allow the crap to float to the top and block out the Son light, and I'll show you an eternal empire. But that is the way of mankind quite nearly from the 'get go'....he has always proven, empire after empire ad nauseum, to end up dominating his fellow man to his own injury. Just as God's Word has said.

 

That being said, here are some 'proofs' of why I believe not only in the Grand Designer, but that He is Love, just as He said:

 

Youtube: Inner life of a cell

 

Youtube: Flagellar Motor

 

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm

 

http://arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm

 

God's Word is unfolding exactly as foretold, in every detail, and the hour is late, friends.

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm

 

Read Luke 21:25-28 and see the evidence that indeed, heaven and earth are shaking, sun, moon and stars are out of place along with increased agitation of the oceans, exactly as written.

 

What are many doing upon confirmation that these things are indeed taking place? Many sit in silence and hang their heads in sorrow.

 

I say, there is no better time than this moment to turn, or return, to God in Christ! And then have reason to instead, "STAND UP and LIFT UP your heads, for your redemption draws near!"

 

It is God's will that everyone come to an accurate knowledge of Him and the One He sent forth, but He will not abrogate Free Will.

 

I say, if He can save Kirk Martin, He can save me too....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch

 

 

Blessings in Christ

 

 

First off I will point out that proselytizing is against the rules here at hypography, if you want to preach I suggest you go to a religious forum.

 

Secondly, both your proof are trivially falsified. Irreducible complexity has been shown to be false over and over.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexitIy

 

Irreducible complexity (IC) is an argument by proponents of intelligent design that certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved from simpler, or "less complete" predecessors, through natural selection acting upon a series of advantageous naturally occurring, chance mutations.[1] The argument is central to intelligent design, and is rejected by the scientific community at large,[2] which overwhelmingly regards intelligent design as pseudoscience.[3] Irreducible complexity is one of two main arguments used by intelligent design proponents, the other being specified complexity.[4]

Biochemistry professor Michael Behe, the originator of the term irreducible complexity, defines an irreducibly complex system as one "composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning".[5] Evolutionary biologists have demonstrated how such systems could have evolved,[6][7] and describe Behe's claim as an argument from incredulity.[8] In the 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, Behe gave testimony on the subject of irreducible complexity. The court found that "Professor Behe's claim for irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large."[2]

 

If you want to play dueling videos I can do that too but the Ark is also easily refuted, the existence of echinoderms and salamanders falsify the ark easily.

 

One thing to remember, belief does not equal knowledge...

[VoiceInTheWilderness]

"One thing to remember, belief does not equal knowledge..."

 

And neither does wisdom equal fact, for it is much greater. And knowledge without wisdom, is rather like a load of books on the back of an ***. (Or so I've heard it said)

 

Truly, 'knowledge' is proved as belief every day. And since we're being honest with one another, I can honestly say that science on the whole, is itself, "best guess". And we all proselytize our 'knowledge' every day. That I advocate for the evidence of a Grand Designer, or at least, One MUCH grander than we puny mortals, is no different than you evangelizing about your new car, (except that one is more put off by the idea of answering to a Creator God than the other is about one pontificating about one's modern chariot of choice.)

 

If you are repulsed by my supplying evidence that offends one's apparently fragile sensibilities in a topic which begs the very question of God Himself,

 

Then you have my sympathies for such condition. But I make no apology whatsoever for supplying it.

 

"What WOULD be PROOF of a God or gods running the universe?"

 

Indeed....

Edited September 9, 2012 by VoiceInTheWilderness

[Moontanman]

"One thing to remember, belief does not equal knowledge..."

 

And neither does wisdom equal fact, for it is much greater. And knowledge without wisdom, is rather like a load of books on the back of an ***. (Or so I've heard it said)

 

Truly, 'knowledge' is proved as belief every day. And since we're being honest with one another, I can honestly say that science on the whole, is itself, "best guess". And we all proselytize our 'knowledge' every day. That I advocate for the evidence a Grand Designer, or at least, One MUCH grander than we puny mortals, is no different than you evangelizing about your new car, (except that one is more put off by the idea of answering to a Creator God than the other is about one pontificating about one's modern chariot of choice.)

 

If you are repulsed by my supplying evidence that offends one's apparently fragile sensibilities in a topic which begs the very question of God Himself,

 

Then you have my sympathies for such condition. But I make no apology whatsoever for supplying it.

 

"What WOULD be PROOF of a God or gods running the universe?"

 

Indeed....

 

 

Just as soon as you actually supply some evidence of a god much less your god I'll be glad to discuss but if you noticed i did provide evidence. I can go on to totally destroy the ideas you have suggested as evidence if you want but I sense that empirical evidence means nothing to you because you think you possess belief but belief has possessed you...

 

BTW your statement that science is nothing but best guess shows your complete ignorance of science, science runs on evidence, empirical repeatable evidence.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Moontanman

[Turtle]

the question posed in the title is not even wrong. inasmuch as "god" and/or gods is/are by definition supernatural, there is no valid scientific assessment let alone a proof. discussing the question as if it is valid is an exercise in futility. and i'm in no small measure somewhat vexed -if not bemused- that it was moonmantan that proposed it. what were you thinking mick!?

 

I disagree, while it's true that as long as something remains supernatural it would appear to be unknowable by science which works by natural means I again suggest that if you could, and this is just a for instance and not the only possibility, but if you could pray to a specific god and cause a grape to appear from thin air and do it repeatably in any all contexts and even show others how to do this then it becomes something science can investigate and by definition natural.

 

If evidence of a god could be shown and repeated would that not remove god from the realm of supernatural and bring her into the natural world?

 

Or would any such evidence be assumed to be technology that we simply do not understand?

 

I don't think this question is as simple as god is supernatural therefore outside the realm of science...

 

i stand by my assertion. say "unfalsifiability." buffy agreed in few & no uncertain terms.

]

the question posed in the title is not even wrong. inasmuch as "god" and/or gods is/are by definition supernatural, there is no valid scientific assessment let alone a proof. discussing the question as if it is valid is an exercise in futility.

You got it! :cheer:

 

the thing is, she goes on -as do you and the rest here- inspite of the logical fallacy at the root. :shrug: well, nothing simple about that behavior i'll agree.

 

anything beyond the limits and grasp of the human mind is either illusion or futility; and because your god having to be one or the other of the two, in the first instance I should be mad to believe in him, and in the second a fool. :phones:

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

You sillies!!!!

Of course God exists! You're talking about him aren't you.

It is impossible to discuss anything which does not exist! As soon as it becomes a thought it EXISTS!!!!!

 

The real question to the answer is "how do you prove God not an imagined being"

 

Can't answer "What Would Be Proof Of A God Or Gods Running The Universe?"

without first answering that question, unless of course you fall back on belief without proof....which of course is hardly a scientific approach to things.

Edited September 10, 2012 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

[Moontanman]

i stand by my assertion. say "unfalsifiability." buffy agreed in few & no uncertain terms.

 

 

the thing is, she goes on -as do you and the rest here- inspite of the logical fallacy at the root. :shrug: well, nothing simple about that behavior i'll agree.

 

anything beyond the limits and grasp of the human mind is either illusion or futility; and because your god having to be one or the other of the two, in the first instance I should be mad to believe in him, and in the second a fool. :phones:

 

 

Turtle, at one time lightning was considered supernatural, should we have just stopped trying to figure out what caused it?

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

I agree with Mr Moon

Our ancestors (don't even have to go back more than say 300 years) if shown much of our current technology would most certainly suspect it to be of supernatural origin.

Just think how fast they'd freak at the sight of an Ipad or a flatscreen! i'm sure a laser pointer would bring much amusement...until you found yourself tied to a stack of firewood.

 

Should the sun stop in the sky it would likely be written of as some sort of weird fluke of nature...which for anyone unfortunate enough to see it would not be good if it lasted say several days or so.

 

I got it!

Should a booming voice be heard by all of the world at the same time saying 'watch as I flood every street to exactly 1mm deep with water" and it were heard in the native tongue of every person listening and it were followed by a flood that flooded every street to 1mm depth of water...would that be proof?

Edited September 10, 2012 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

[Turtle]

Turtle, at one time lightning was considered supernatural, should we have just stopped trying to figure out what caused it?

 

y'all are gonna do as you are wont to do and the facts be damned. good luck with all that.

[Iam Joy]

What convinces me more than anything that all which exists has been designed/created is the absolute, utter, complete, 100% precision that is in everything from the tiniest aspect of the microverse, to the way everything physically operates and how it all works together 100% perfectly at the macroscopic level. Existence is utterly mind-blowing and incomprehensible. All physicists say that it runs/exists with such a minute level of precision that if one tiniest quantum bit was wrong then nothing would be here.

 

That makes me wonder.

 

I find it impossible to accept that this ALL happened by chance.

 

However, who or what caused all of this is up for debate. It could well be true that we are all in a computer simulation - how could we tell? It could well be true that an intelligent consciousness did all this - how do we know?

 

We live with the mystery.

[blamski]

IamJoy, if everything had been designed with 100% precision then whales wouldn't still have the remains of hind legs in their skeletons and the human spine wouldn't be better suited to a quadroped.

 

I think you're having a cause and effect issue here, which is a very common mistake. maybe if one quantum bit was 'wrong' then maybe we wouldn't be here. but maybe something else would, and maybe that something else would be marveling at how perfectly everything seems to fit together. its not that the universe is fine tuned to allow everything to exist in it, its that everything that exists is fine tuned to exist in the universe.

[Moontanman]

What convinces me more than anything that all which exists has been designed/created is the absolute, utter, complete, 100% precision that is in everything from the tiniest aspect of the microverse, to the way everything physically operates and how it all works together 100% perfectly at the macroscopic level. Existence is utterly mind-blowing and incomprehensible. All physicists say that it runs/exists with such a minute level of precision that if one tiniest quantum bit was wrong then nothing would be here.

 

I'm not sure I understand your definition of perfection, I see virtually nothing that works to perfection, there would seem to always be a bit of uncertainty to everything and mistakes happen would seem to be the only real constant.

 

That makes me wonder.

 

Again, wonder in what way?

 

I find it impossible to accept that this ALL happened by chance.

 

As far as I know no one says all this happened by chance, do you know of anyone who says it all happened by chance? Science most certainly does not say "it all happened by chance"...

 

However, who or what caused all of this is up for debate. It could well be true that we are all in a computer simulation - how could we tell? It could well be true that an intelligent consciousness did all this - how do we know?

 

It is up for debate but the moment you assume it's unknowable all debate stops... but again you are making an assumption that something caused all of this, in fact you would appear to making an assumption that something consciously "did all this" I have to ask did all of what? Things like computer simulations or creators or anything not possible to know adds nothing but an unnecessary layer of complexity to the problem.

 

We live with the mystery.

 

The mystery of what?

[CraigD]

All physicists say that it runs/exists with such a minute level of precision that if one tiniest quantum bit was wrong then nothing would be here.

IamJoy, I urge you to try to support this claim, first carefully reading one of the many refutations of it, such as the Wikipedia article fine-tuned Universe, which I hope will convince you that your claim is badly wrong.

 

Some well know physicists, notably Paul Davies, have long noted that various “tunable physical contants” must fall within fairly narrow ranges of values to allow the physics necessary for life like outs to exist, but not that they must be have exactly their present values. Others have suggested, and explored via computer simulations, that many possible collections of greatly different tunable parameters are possible. Others, notably John Barlow and Frank Tipler, have pointed out that tunable constant may much more often than not result in universes in which life is not possible, of which no living being is aware, because they cannot exits in them, an explanation know as the anthropic principle.

 

One can wonder at great length with great pleasure and intensity at the implications of statement like yours, but it’s very important, I think, to first be sure they are not false.

[Chewbalka]

I hate to bring up the obvious here lol but i have noticed it has passed by un noticed by everyone here lol... If we are to base this all off of the facts we believe to be true today... How did life begin on earth? Bacteria carried by comets and such that impacted on the planet that eventually evolved into what we see today? Correct? And if this is so bacteria seems to be a stepping stone as well as a basic blue print in evolution. What i am trying to say here is that if we originated as bacteria from space then there is a more then highly probable chance that most if not all life also originated from these bacterias equalling some what if not identical life forms everywhere? Besides the sturdiness or lack of sturdiness of species based on gravitational effects it would not be slightly surprising to me to see similarities in life forms millions of light years apart. In order for me to be one hundred percent convinced that god is real would be simple. He shows up and takes everything away without hurting one person so we can all see. And by everything i mean everything we own houses, cars, roads, lights if you can think of it its gone just a bunch of people standing around in empty fields. He's all powerful so i can not see this being an issue for him. Plus its a world wide scale so therefore no illusionist is capable of a feat like this. Otherwise i will doubt the existance.

 

Buffy mentioned this.

 

Throughout human history, "supernatural feats", "miracles" and other apparent occurrences "beyond human ability or reason" have been used to "create belief" in the rulers and later religious leaders as religion and government slowly bifurcated. When you think about this, this is incredibly simplistic though, and as our society has evolved to a state where we have begun to think about thinking about God within the context of a much much much larger creation, we've begun to be conscious of the fact that things "just enough beyond human ability" really isn't all that impressive.

 

This is true very true but theres a huge catch to this. Not only is this becoming obvious for science to dis prove, religion is constantly ammending to insure no dis proof of god. Its a viscious circle which will eventually lead to god as just an intellegent being that has vast technology and he is hiding from us.

[DanielT61479722]

I Think the Fact that we live in a universe and world that has order to it, The laws of the universe allow for life to thrive and since laws need a lawmaker to me its common sense that there is a creator. Check this link out http://dannytaylor02.hubpages.com/hub/The-Coincidences-of-Science just a couple of things science cannot explain without a creator.