Time does not exist

[AGThePoet]

wow, this is going to be way over my head for a while, until I take physics (probably next year). Just a hypothetical question: If I was standing still, and Bob was in a ship going the speed of light spinning around me (lets just ignore the g-forces and wind and all that good stuff for the sake of simplicity) for a couple of days, when he stopped would his clock be different then mine?

 

Alex

[AkiraBakaBaka]

I agree that time does not exist, that it is merely a construct of the mind created by humans. That does not mean that it isn't useful; math is plenty useful, even if its completely abstract and doesn't actually exist except as language and ideas (1 + 2 = 3, but show me a one or a two).

 

The problem is very similar to the ancient Buddhist idea that there is no such thing as "ego". We are born and we are named, and we forever associate our "identity" with that name, which is merely a designation and has no Real existence. Then we learn language, and the designations (words) for various objects, and thus we fool ourselves that there is such a thing as a "book" or a "chair" when in fact these are just constructs of the human mind. When you search for your ego it appears to exist not in your body and not in your mind, and yet it also appears to exist in both places! This paradox is easily resolved once you realize that ego is imaginary. </long>

 

The same things can be said for time. Time exists nowhere, in no measurable quantity. It's effects can not be predicted nor can they be measured. Quantum theory has shown us that the only "time" is NOW!

 

The best we can do is observe a phenomenon at random intervals to see what its state is, and determine the probability of it being in a certain state when we observe it. Thus, we can not predict any event in the "future", no matter how trivial (from making toast to the decay of particles; see Murphy's Law).

 

This is most dramatically realized in Hawking Radiation. Theoretically, nothing should be able to escape the event horizon of a black hole, but quantumly there is a tiny chance that particles may be 'generated' from this surface. So even though the theory states that all matter *should* be absorbed, we can never say with 100% certainty that it actually *will*, due to quantum effects. At best we can rest assured that more often than not we get our toast...

 

The same goes for observing the present or quantifying the past. Heisenberg's uncertainly principal states that we can never truly know a specific property of an object (mass, velocity, etc) past a certain amount of precision.

 

So in the end, we're stuck in the eternal present. All matter and energy is constanty changing, eternally in quantum flux. I like to call this "existence", and we are fortunate as humans to have the capacity to observe it and rationalize it. It almost sounds like a matter of mere semantics, but understanding that time has no effect on Reality can completely shift a person's point of view.

[Roberto]

@AG: about your question, yes, the clocks will be different. Just one correction: Bob would not be at the speed of light, because it is forbidden by relativity theory.

 

@Akira: if you're saying that time does not exist as much as a book, a table or ourselves, then I must agree with you. The problem here is: what's your definition of "to exist"? Because, if you say that something exist and something don't, there must be a way to discriminate it. If you simply say that nothing exists, it does not have any usefulness.

 

But I disagree with you concerning your other statements. Time can be measured (in clocks) an can be predicted (as we already discussed). And what in Quantum Mechanics says that time is only now? QM is not a theory concerning time, time in QM is just a parameter, it does not have the special status it has in Relativity.

 

Yes, in QM you will only have predictions about probabilities, but to say that you cannot predict anything is an error. You can indeed predict how probabilities evolve in time and a lot of bahaviours that can be measured in labs. QM is a highly tested theory and gives precise predictions. And when we are not in subatomic domains, classical mechanics give excellent predictions too. We build airplanes using classical physics, not QM probabilities.

 

When you say that theoretically nothing could escape from a black hole, it is fundamentally wrong. Hawking radiation is a theoretical discovery, not an experimental one. Hawking discovered the radiation reasoning about theoretical fundamentals and the Hawking radiation, as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please), is yet an unmeasured phenomena. Anyway, the spectra of the radiation is well predicted theoretically.

 

Finally, the uncertainty principle does not say that we cannot measure any property of an object with wanted precision. In QM you can in principle measure any property with whatever precision you want, but the UP forbids you of measuring some properties simultaneously, for example, space and velocity. But if you measure them separately, the UP does not impose any limit on the precision. Indeed, in QM, there are sets of variables that can be meaured with any precision simultaneously and others that not, depending on the experiment.

[GAHD]

Originally posted by: Roberto

QM is a highly tested theory and gives precise predictions.

My one question on this comment is; If QM is so highly tested and precise:

A) Why is it still only a THEORY?

B) Why hasn't a valid quantum computer been created.

 

Next in line there is a small point on the Time Dilation topic originally posted.

 

If satellites suffer time dilation the ENTIRE time dilation theory self-destructs, at lest in logic.

Ex satellite is orbiting the Earth in Geo-sync. The satellite thus revolves around the earth at 3075 m/s speed. However, the satellite is actually moving at quite a few varying speeds; it is orbiting the Earth, which is orbiting the sun at roughly 66,600 miles/hour, which in turn is orbiting the center of our galaxy at whatever speed.

Before you shout "REFERANCE FRAMES!" let me finish.

The resulting time dilation, even assuming reference frames, would be doing quite a bit of yo-yoing. As it's overall velocity increases as it enters the part of it's orbit leading away from the sun, and decreases as it passes the next halfway point and 'falls' back to the side of it's orbit closer to the sun. The overall Equation causes the relevant velocity to nearly negate itself.

[Roberto]

Theory is just a technical name for a set of hypothesis and explanations and this name remains even after the set has been tested.

 

Quantum computers are a problem of technology and not a problem with QM.

 

I will repeat: there is no known experiment ever made that disagree with quantum mechanical predictions.

 

Concerning time dilation, it doesn´t matter if the velocity increases and decreases, the final effect is related to the length of the world line of the body which is being accelerated, in this case the sattelite. The body that suffers acceleration feels time passing slowly.

[I.D]

I think the discussion of "if time exists" is a very complex topic. Firstly its so hard to get to the core of the discussion instead of constantly going in cycles from one theory to another and this is mainly because there is never an absolute definition to anything and everything is relative. That is why "if time exists" can be looked at two ways or maybe even more...either in a physical sense or psychological. I believe that psychologically anything can exist but that is mainly because it is just our perception of what is happining to us physically. Physically time does not exist, yes it is measured, but what are we really measuring, isn't it just the decay of matter? This decay, is it not due to the influence of gravity ect. matter does not decay because of time, so really time is just a man made concept to explain the gradual decay of matter. So even if time does exists psychologically, it does not affect us.

 

Muon decay, illustrates the dilation of time in a moving object. This occurs in the decay of unstable elementary particles called muons. These particles are created high in the atmosphere by fast cosmic-ray particles arriving at the earth from space. Muons have a speed of 0.998c, their lifetime is 0.000002 sec, therefore they can only travel only 600m.However, they are created at altitudes more than ten times greater than this. If we use the Lorentz contraction formula we can see that in our reference frame they have traveled 9500m.And because in the muons frame of reference it only takes 600m to reach the ground and in our reference frame it seems like it has travelled 9500m to us it seems that its lifetime has been extended.Since Muons travel at such high speeds they are able to dilate there lifetime and/or contract the lenght for them to reach ground level, otherwise they wouldent be able to reach sea level at profusion. This proves time dilation. If u want it to be called time dilation, it is really decay dilation..since time is only man made concept to measure the gradual decay.

[ccazanave]

You are right Mr. Poet, time does not exist.

There is a great physicist who has shown that time does not exist only change exists. See

 

http://www.platonia.com/

 

Yours truly

 

Professor of Physics and Astronomy Claude Cazanave

[wavelength?]

Time does exist. If your traveling at the speed of light then time stops, it does this because you would actually be riding a wave length. Wave lengths travel at the speed of light which is the only way you could travel at the speed of light, by becoming a wave length.

 

I agree with I.D when he says that time is just the decay of matter. This is true because in cosmic terms we are almost motionless in space, and we are constantly being bombarded by many different wave lengths from all over the universe,(radiation) which causes decay of matter. if there were no wave lengths passing through us then there would be no time or decay of matter.

 

If your traveling at the speed of light does time really stop? no. Unless you can get away from all cosmic waves, which is impossable because they are everywhere.

 

Passage of time is just the passage of wave lengths.

How many are passing through you right now?

[zcrumb]

Time is a dimension. We travel through it just like we travel through space.

If you go to the atomic and sub atomic level we are moving through space and matter in a irreversible linear fashion just like time. I can walk from my room to another room and back, but the room is never exactly the same, the earth moves through space I will be located in a different position in space. On an atomic level atoms are always moving, just more slowly nothing ever retains its true form. Time never retains a true form to go back to. It is just a different dimension then height, width or length it has different properties. As for perception, perception of anything is in the eye of the beholder. Perception will always change in relativity to your position in any given dimension.

Measurement, you cannot measure any dimension without a tool, take away the measurement tool and it becomes a perception again. Sure you cannot "see" time but you cannot see anything outside of a certain light wave bandwidth. Without time everything would exist in every possible location at the same moment. All movement would be instantaneous.

[burrows733]

Hi AG

I hear what you are saying but time, just is. Its not here, there or anywhere. It's a bit like a 3 D sculpture idea in your head not physically existing, and not there until you make it so.

The conventional way time has always been understood is that it follows in linear format like one step following another.

Let's assume the concept of time as just an idea in your head, and as a concept alone, it exists. Work with me here AG. Now assuming it exists but in a slightly different way. A bit like if you consider that time and I mean all the time that has ever existed past, present and future was represented by a bucket of water. Now with a hypothetical probe i.e. your finger, put it into the water now at what point in linear time are you, past present or future? Linear time makes no sense but is the perceived conventional way of dealing with it.

To properly deal with time you have to use a different approach or concept. Let's assume you are right and time does not exist in our perceived awareness of our world around us. But time as an idea does exist as an idea in our head. All be it that we can't prove it, in our senses orientated sphere of existence. So if it exists as an idea in our head what has caused this "idea" to come into being?

Well that bit of crinkly grey stuff between our ears is the engine that pulled this idea from its area of being/existence. This realm/area of being that Mr. Einstein eluded to in his work is the 4th dimension, which most people can't understand, or they think belongs in the realm of science fiction. But in actual fact they are moving between the 4th and the 3rd all the time (no pun intended) although they haven't a clue they are doing so.

What I'm actually doing now by typing this email and thinking, this is within the edges, how ever lightly, of the 4th dimension, working out a mathematical sum/computation however small is an abstract thought and within the 4th dimension. And the deeper into the mathematical problem you get you are just getting further into the 4th.

As for sleeping have you ever considered how mixed up and chaotic your dreams are. And it’s usually the underlining feeling you perceive that dominates the dream and it’s what you remember when you wake, more than anything else. Well if you are randomly moving about in time (via the 4th dimension) past events and future events are all in there (like the bucket of water) and when you wake fragments of these thoughts linger (which is exactly what 4th dimension reality is all about. Thoughts.) Remnants of these thoughts/dreams/feelings still linger in the consciousness of the 3 D physical world. This is what our physical bodily senses try to come to grips and deal with, and that is why you get the feeling you have been in this or that situation before. Although you know you haven't and never where.

Let's sum up now. If your brain is a mode of moving between 3rd and 4th dimensions and Einstein as most will admit was quite a savvy chap, tells us that the 4th exists and all the tools we use in our 3rd dimension, are to the 4th dimension what a sledge hammer is to brain surgery.(not really much good)

So the means of using this 4th dimension I think has already been given by nature to us all. It is generally believed that we (human beings) only use 10% or is that 20% of our brain. What is the other 80-90% used for? I think, and bearing in mind this is only my opinion, I think it’s an unopened 4th dimension tool chest with unheard of 4th dimension gadgetry for us to use. But like a chimp with a 4 stroke car engine strobe timing lamp. Unless he has a rudimentary education and the intelligence to figure out that it is used as a means to an end.(and what is this end) All he will do is crack nuts with it.

In conclusion for an idea to have 3D form and exist on a table top as you think about it. That is impossible. And for the table to have 4D form and physically exist in your mind (not brain). That is impossible.

[Tormod]

So the means of using this 4th dimension I think has already been given by nature to us all. It is generally believed that we (human beings) only use 10% or is that 20% of our brain.

 

This is a myth and has no basis in reality.

 

Here is an entertaining page on the 10% subject:

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html

 

Tormod

[burrows733]

Hi Tormod,

 

I didn't say the idea was right but I didn’t say it was wrong either it’s just my opinion. I used to have a 2.5 litre MGB sports car and I used the whole engine (read brain)when I took it out and all the parts went through the moving motions but rarely did I open it up and use it all to its full potential.(read brain again)

If you weren’t taught the process of how to read would you have naturally picked it up? No. Unless someone can teach us how to exploit our brain to it’s full potential. We as a species are very unlikely to advance further than the caveman type mentality that binds us to our evolutionary path with all the other animals.

To change tracks a little. Indigenous native Brazilians who have been cut off in the remotess parts of the Brazilian jungle and have never had contact with the west or their ideas. Who, when confronted with, so called "civilization", have absolutely no phrase in their language for our concept of tomorrow or next week it just does not exist. When near 6pm in the evening some of the westeners let it be know via the native interpreters that the chief was welcome to come to have a meal with them shortly. The chief arrived in full cerimonial dress two days later very early at 5am for what westeners would call a very early breakfast expecting a huge meal. The word time had no meaning to him. A short while to him was exactly what he did, and a long time would probably have been 6or 7 years or to the next full moon, who knows

But on the other hand the world of dreams, deep contemplative thought and this ability to travel to different geographical location and view the future while in these deep 4 D states/sleep/trance what ever you want to call it. Is to us, a bizarre notion of seeing into the future via our dreams?

OK I hear you say this guy is in cloud Cuckoo land, well maybe I am. But I rather like the idea that I might be different and right maybe. And if I can see some kind of logic to my train of thought who in so called learned authority has the dead fire certain knowledge to say I‘m absolutely wrong.

If I am so widely off the mark on this, why did the U.S. government spend untold multiple millions of tax payer’s dollars at the height of the cold war on exactly this concept? It was called “Remote Viewing”. By all accounts it was very successful to, else wise; they the CIA would never have been able to get funding for year after year of government money.

If you cut yourself and the cut opens up and starts too really bleed and you squeeze it together to stop it and cover it up with your other hand. And say, oh no that didn’t happen and because you can’t see it, and you don’t want it to be true, it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. It’s still cut and still there. You have to accept it deal with it and carry on and do something about it. Now while I know I am probably not correct here in a lot of what I say, but it does bear some thought. But when things start to get really complicated I tend to try to find my own logical way through the theoretical maze. In a way that makes sense to me so that I can move on and forward. This is my kiss principle.(keep it simple stupid) It may not be right but it works for me.

I was told once by a drinking buddy I had multiple personalities. I got worried and went to the doctor and got a clean bill of health and we’re all right now.

Geoff

 

PS

I like this forum it has some very interesting ideas. I especially like the way everyone can air their thoughts and points of view in a frank and open manner without a total disrespect from other forum users. Even though I know some of my ideas are way out there on the limb.

[AGThePoet]

wow. that was a lot of stuff to read through. cool

 

To the sleeping to see into the future thing:

Ive always understood REM sleep as just your mind taking whatever is there and trying to (re)create it. Lots of times I'll think about swimming or something as I fall asleep and that night I dream about swimming. I don't think time has much to do with it. Then again, I still know diddly squat about time. so that could explain it

 

Hmmm... all this talk about QM and sub amtomic levels of reality... ugh... 1 AM... school tomorrow... I'll have physics soon enough, then I can understand you all. Course, right now I'm so tired I barely understand that a banana is yellow. Perhaps if we were going just under the speed of light in the sub atomic reality the banana would be purple.

 

i think ill stop trying to make jokes about 4th dimensions now

 

AGThePoet

[burrows733]

Hi AG again,

The quantum computer thing is not that far off. Silicon chip technology is 2 D orientated, i.e. forward-back-left-right and in this format can only go so far. Now there is a scientist in the US who is doing research and is extremely far on, and into another form of chip technology.

Bearing in mind I’m not university educated so don’t know and wasn’t taught QM. But the jist of what this guy say's is that in a measured glass of fluid let’s say water for the sake of argument and there are a finite number of molecules in there. Now what he is trying with a modicum of success I might add is to electronically tag each atom. So it will in essence have an identity within the molecule one byte of information and if enough of these similar molecules exist they will form clusters and communicate between each other, forward -back-left-right-up- down much in the same way our own brain works. Exponentially making the amount of so called chip operating speed and memory into a mechanical form of what our own brain is and does, and it doesn’t and won’t forget much like our own silicon P.C’s, don’t forget. But this will have the capacity to hold what’s in all the worlds mega computers today with over 50% to spare.(remember this is the amount of fluid in a glass of water) As for computing speed it will handle all the large complex equations and numbers involved in quantum mechanics and make speculations on improvement to them.

Our organic brain has the imperfection of forgetting and it won’t he claims. He says it will do everything Albert Einstein did but even better and with complete accuracy. This was on a Discovery Channel about a year ago, and if it was on there, then.

It must be old hat stuff now. Makes you think, just what does a government organization with extremely deep pockets, spend your Tax money on,and won't let you play with

Geoff

[Tormod]

AG, I wonder why it is that the bananas I bought yesterday always turn brown today. As this thread's title suggests, time does not exist. Someone also argued that while time does not exist, change does.

 

So, in short, bananas change from brown to yellow NOT over time but through change.

 

So don't bother going anywhere near the speed of light, becase a) if you bring the banana it will turn into energy or B) if you watch the banana it will disappear at close to the speed of light (meaning you won't see it at all).

 

OK, I'm tired, too.

 

Burrows, I appreciate your views and comments. There was a feature article on quantum computers in the latest issue of New Scientist, worth a read. It discussed some ways it could be made possible using something called "anyons" which have a property called "topography" (that's about where I got lost).

 

Tormod

[burrows733]

Hi Roberto,

In regards to black holes and idea that they exist and that they are there, started off as an "idea" in someone's head. Note I said "idea". In that space where we all do our thinking and I hate to go on about it, this space is the 4th dimension where time in its totality, has for us in our 3rd dimension no relevance whatsoever.

To say nothing escapes a black hole is to me fundamentally wrong. Every material thing and that includes gravity, light, radiation and everything in this material universe that we can conceive of, is bound by that statement. “But” and everything has a “but” because, When you have an idea that you can “do a superman and raise your arm and just fly up” impossible you say that’s only for the movies. And here comes the “but” again, people said that about the Wright brothers when they were trying to fly. ”But,” oh there it is again, they were bucking the conventional belief’s of the day.

They had this idea the 4th dimension place where they live (ideas that is) that they could fly, impossible people said. But the very fact that they could imagine it in their head’s (4th dimension) this idea was translated by technology and theory into fruition and history.

Right the history lesson over. The fact that you can imagine (think, form an idea) that something is possible in your head, and just because with today’s technology it is impossible, doesn’t mean to say the future won’t hold an answer. If you can think about it in your head eventually it will be able to be done maybe a long way in the future but is possible (the old camel and the needle thingy)

Now with the groundwork laid, if you can think with your brain that you are in a black hole. And lets face it thinking you are there is the only way anyone could survive it. By thinking you are there by “Remote Viewing” is by far the quickest way to travel and remain unscathed and unfettered by 3rd dimension restraints, in a black hole.

So I think that with a thorough understanding of 4th dimension rules (laws) physical transportation of our material bodies is not necessary.

Obtaining that understanding is the key factor and the amount of knowledge we will get, along the way there is crucial to comprehension of the 4th dimension. And that my forum buddies is when two realities (worlds) collide.

Regards

Geoff

[Tormod]

Geoff, please don't take this as an offense (it is not!), but I think you should throroughly read our thread called "Theories on the 5th dimension" - your usage of the term 4th dimension is a bit strange. To do what you claim one would most likely need at least one other dimension. We might live in a 3D space but it is coupled with the passage of time which turns it into a 4D space-time. I don't think anyone in this thread has managed to convince me otherwise.

 

What we imagine and what is real is of course a good discussion, but we have had it many times now, and since this was originally a threadcalled "what is time" I think it might be a good idea to try to start new threads in order to bring new ideas to the front, like your point that remote viewing is a possible way of experiencing anything (I don't buy it. You can buy Astral Projection guides for $19,99 online, and they are (to put it lightly) pieces of junk).

 

"Remote vieweing" as a way to explore the world in your mind is not an accepted scientific theory and would require some proof (I'd say extraordinary proof). I don't think your "groundwork" as you call it is enough!

 

But as for some of your other ideas: there is a big difference in people imagining themselves flying with supernatural powers, and two brothers building a physical plane and taking off with it (I think they came some 7 meters on that first flight). That is what invention is all about! It has nothing to do with how many dimensions we live in, nor the passage of time.

 

Of course, the spirit of Hypography is that all ideas are welcome and if anyone likes (or dislikes) an idea they are free to discuss it. But I don't fall for that "but" argument of yours. Ideas do no become facts just because you can pull a rabbit or two out of your hat and claim that this hat is magical because I just pulled a rabbit out of it. Get my point?

 

The wonders of cosmology, in which black holes have their place, is incredible. To think that when Einstein formulated his theory of general relativity he did not know that they would predict black holes! Black holes were discovered around the same time (in 1916 Karl Swarzchild decided to use Einsteins new calculations to study the gravitational fields of stars), although some world models showed that they had to exist (this can be traced to the Rev John Michell in 1783, whose papers were not discovered until the 1970s but his ideas where used by Laplace as early as 1796).

 

Everything in our mathematical, physical and philosophical theories today started out as ideas, and most of them are still ideas. Like the point you made a few posts ago about the "10% usage of the brain", one must be able to find out which ideas are just claims and hoaxes, and which are ideas which may bring us to a further understanding of the world. Sometimes one does the other, which is why philosophy and creawtive thinking is very important, but at the same time it requires us to act as scientists and consider the facts and the possibilities.

 

In short, I believe that to think that being able to think something must make it true is a misunderstanding of the way the world works and the power of the human psyche.

 

Let's get back to the discussion here about what time is, or start new threads.

 

(*wiggling my index finger at all of you and forgetting that I am not a grandfather*)

 

Tormod