Archaeological Proof Of Biblical Giants & More!

[Iam Joy]

Hi :smile:

 

Quite by chance and good fortune I came across this amazing page full of 'proof' of things from the Bible; like giants and men living with dinosaurs - when I say "amazing" I mean that my expression was like the "What the f..k?" cat off YouTube!

 

I think you'll also go; "What the f..k?" too when you see this page:

 

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/giants.htm

 

It's got a ton of stuff on it with images - just please tell me if ANY of this 'proof' is actually real, or is it all stuff from Ripley's Believe it or Not? :lol:

 

What the heck is that giant femur from? What about the other images and the claimed human footprints in/around dino prints? Is there a speck of truth/reality in any of it? I hope you won't simply diss it all without actually knowing what you're saying, just because they're Bible folk - maybe some of this is real alt. science (?)

[belovelife]

i don't know about it all, but a pertified finger would be a bone not the whole finger,

[Moontanman]

Hi :smile:

 

Quite by chance and good fortune I came across this amazing page full of 'proof' of things from the Bible; like giants and men living with dinosaurs - when I say "amazing" I mean that my expression was like the "What the f..k?" cat off YouTube!

 

I think you'll also go; "What the f..k?" too when you see this page:

 

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/giants.htm

 

It's got a ton of stuff on it with images - just please tell me if ANY of this 'proof' is actually real, or is it all stuff from Ripley's Believe it or Not? :lol:

 

What the heck is that giant femur from? What about the other images and the claimed human footprints in/around dino prints? Is there a speck of truth/reality in any of it? I hope you won't simply diss it all without actually knowing what you're saying, just because they're Bible folk - maybe some of this is real alt. science (?)

 

All of it, every last one of the things asserted in that article is horse feathers, if you want to play this game then go with one at a time, I get tired of researching this crap and trying to show it all to be crap is difficult so choose your favorite one, I really don't care which one and I'll show you it's nothing but lies and deceit... I'll give you a heads up, the human foot prints and dinosaur prints is not only misinterpreted but is in fact a hoax perpetrated by theists who think it's ok to break the 9th commandment as long as it's to make people believe in god... all the rest of that stuff is either misrepresented or out right hoaxes...

[Iam Joy]

Funny how I knew exactly what MOONTANMAN would say in his reply to this :lol:

 

I'm sorry that you're sick of looking at stuff like this MOONTANMAN; perhaps your antitheisism gets in the way, maybe - I could be wrong, but your post gives that impression. I so didn't want this to turn into a dissing session aimed at Bible folks. Personally I'm never tired of looking at strange stuff and reading odd ideas and unusual theories; I enjoy all the Fortean and Nexus stuff. I'm so glad that I've never become jaded and have never snubbed anything because it comes from a certain type of person, or from a certain type of belief system.

 

I hope everyone else will ignore that it's a Bible site and will just look through the webpage without prejudice. I know the first thing on the page is that very unlikely-looking 'finger' that might put people off going any further, but towards the bottom of the page it gets a bit more curious (I think so anyway).

 

I mainly wondered that if the giant femur is actually real (and if it's not then do you have proof?), does anyone with a clue actually know what animal it could have come from? Let's imagine it was actually from a bipedal 'human' then it does seem rather thin to me to bear the weight - if such a tall being ever existed I'd have thought that the femur would be far more robust than it appears in the image, which makes me think it may have been modelled on a normal-sized femur; but maybe I'm wrong. Could it be from a dino, or an elephant?

 

I do appreciate it when people make the effort to say why they think something is fake, rather than simply dissing it or name-calling; even if they think it's something really stupidly daft. Thanks.

[Moontanman]

Funny how I knew exactly what MOONTANMAN would say in his reply to this :lol:

 

I'm sorry that you're sick of looking at stuff like this MOONTANMAN; perhaps your antitheisism gets in the way, maybe - I could be wrong, but your post gives that impression. I so didn't want this to turn into a dissing session aimed at Bible folks. Personally I'm never tired of looking at strange stuff and reading odd ideas and unusual theories; I enjoy all the Fortean and Nexus stuff. I'm so glad that I've never become jaded and have never snubbed anything because it comes from a certain type of person, or from a certain type of belief system.

 

I hope everyone else will ignore that it's a Bible site and will just look through the webpage without prejudice. I know the first thing on the page is that very unlikely-looking 'finger' that might put people off going any further, but towards the bottom of the page it gets a bit more curious (I think so anyway).

 

I mainly wondered that if the giant femur is actually real (and if it's not then do you have proof?), does anyone with a clue actually know what animal it could have come from? Let's imagine it was actually from a bipedal 'human' then it does seem rather thin to me to bear the weight - if such a tall being ever existed I'd have thought that the femur would be far more robust than it appears in the image, which makes me think it may have been modelled on a normal-sized femur; but maybe I'm wrong. Could it be from a dino, or an elephant?

 

I do appreciate it when people make the effort to say why they think something is fake, rather than simply dissing it or name-calling; even if they think it's something really stupidly daft. Thanks.

 

 

If you think that my appraisal of your link to horse feathers was inappropriate I suggest you use the little yellow report button in the lower left hand corner and the human femur is a hoax, flat out made up horse feathers...

 

http://fundiesvatheists.lefora.com/2010/05/31/the-true-story-of-the-47-inch-human-femur/

 

During Part 7 of the Seminar Series Hovind points to the bone and says;

"[...] like this thigh bone here over my head which is from a human which would have been nearly 13 feet tall. [...] That would have been a 13 foot human. Well, if only a fragment of that bone was found nobody would believe it came from a human if they believed in evolution."

 

There is an interesting story behind this bone.

Firstly, it is not a real bone. Hovind acknowledges this in Part 2 of his video series; "thigh bone replica from a giant skeleton". While it is not uncommon for museums to use replicas for preservation and security reasons, this replica is not based upon an artifact. There is no "giant skeleton". There isn't a single bone. There isn't even a bone fragment.

 

So where did this "bone" come from? The source is the imagination of Joe Taylor of Mt Blanco Museum. Taylor received a letter claiming large skeletons were found during road construction in Turkey. Other sources claim this "discovery" was made in the 1950's but no references are provided. And like most such stories actual physical artifacts are absent. Hovind claims this "bone" was found in Egypt. Egypt? Turkey? Confused yet? (See also Ed Babinski's comments)

 

However, the absence of an actual bone didn't stop Taylor. He modeled the femur (thigh bone) on the normal skeleton of "one of the Malachite Man females" (also known as Moab Man) which he has in his collection. Because women's femurs have slight variations to men's Hovind's "13 foot man" is actually a woman.

 

But by only doubling all of the dimensions of a regular femur Taylor has ignored basic anatomical proportion. The square-cube law observes that doubling the dimensions of an organism increase its mass (volume of body) eight-fold. Bones of creatures like elephants are so thick relative to length because it is the cross-section of the bone which carries the load. If our giant human remained in proportion, her femur would need to have eight times the cross-section of a regular femur to support the increased load. Taylor has only given her half of the strength she would need. This also means all of the bones of the skeleton poster (see photo) have the wrong proportions.

 

Taylor sells these 2:1 scale models of a normal femur for US$450 A poster of a 2:1 sketch of a normal skeleton costs $50 extra.

 

So in summary, Taylor made an oversized replica of a normal human femur to represent a bone whose only evidence of existence is a letter based upon rumor. Additionally, the proportions of the bone are wrong. Then along comes Kent Hovind who tries to pass off this fantasy as science and manages to turn a woman into a man in the process.

 

Carl Marychurch 2005 (Source: http://www.kent-hovind.com/articles/them_bones.htm )

[Moontanman]

Funny how I knew exactly what MOONTANMAN would say in his reply to this :lol:

 

I'm sorry that you're sick of looking at stuff like this MOONTANMAN; perhaps your antitheisism gets in the way, maybe - I could be wrong, but your post gives that impression. I so didn't want this to turn into a dissing session aimed at Bible folks. Personally I'm never tired of looking at strange stuff and reading odd ideas and unusual theories; I enjoy all the Fortean and Nexus stuff. I'm so glad that I've never become jaded and have never snubbed anything because it comes from a certain type of person, or from a certain type of belief system.

 

Creationism is a lie, it is a lie based on lies supported by lies. It lives for no reason other than lies, it cannot exist next to the light of reality.

 

I hope everyone else will ignore that it's a Bible site and will just look through the webpage without prejudice. I know the first thing on the page is that very unlikely-looking 'finger' that might put people off going any further, but towards the bottom of the page it gets a bit more curious (I think so anyway).

 

Actually my disdain for this site is based on the fact that all the stuff listed is lies, all of it, it wouldn't really matter who was asserting it as reality it is still lies...

 

I mainly wondered that if the giant femur is actually real (and if it's not then do you have proof?), does anyone with a clue actually know what animal it could have come from? Let's imagine it was actually from a bipedal 'human' then it does seem rather thin to me to bear the weight - if such a tall being ever existed I'd have thought that the femur would be far more robust than it appears in the image, which makes me think it may have been modelled on a normal-sized femur; but maybe I'm wrong. Could it be from a dino, or an elephant?

 

 

My link showed it was a fake, not real , a model of a human female's femur, a hoax, nothing more...

 

 

I do appreciate it when people make the effort to say why they think something is fake, rather than simply dissing it or name-calling; even if they think it's something really stupidly daft. Thanks.

 

 

Name calling? I called you a name? I am already familiar with the site you offered and the lies it offers, I did not think it was a fake I know it is a fake. I have known these things were fake for at least 40 years... that is part of the falsehood of creationism, they continue to repeat lies trying to snare people who might be unaware of their lies and hoping that eventually people will forget about this stuff. I on the other hand do not forget that in everything they do and say are lies, if you are believer who does this sound like? I suggest you watch this series of videos and find out just how dishonest creationists really are...

 

[Aethelwulf]

Hi :smile:

 

Quite by chance and good fortune I came across this amazing page full of 'proof' of things from the Bible; like giants and men living with dinosaurs - when I say "amazing" I mean that my expression was like the "What the f..k?" cat off YouTube!

 

I think you'll also go; "What the f..k?" too when you see this page:

 

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/giants.htm

 

It's got a ton of stuff on it with images - just please tell me if ANY of this 'proof' is actually real, or is it all stuff from Ripley's Believe it or Not? :lol:

 

What the heck is that giant femur from? What about the other images and the claimed human footprints in/around dino prints? Is there a speck of truth/reality in any of it? I hope you won't simply diss it all without actually knowing what you're saying, just because they're Bible folk - maybe some of this is real alt. science (?)

 

 

Opposite to what Moon has stated, I on the other hand don't find it too difficult to discredit these claims. I've even had friends come up to me and say... '' did you see that we have uncovered massive skeletons...'' To which I kind of glare at them for a second and reply, ''it's not real.''

 

I then go on to say, ''If it had been real, you would have been sure to hear about it from every major news presenting company from all over the world. It would have been the biggest discovery of the century. Instead, people often see these things on dodgy sites or on youtube clips which have clearly been photoshopped - poorly in some cases. There is absolutely no credible scientific source which accredits the existence of these skeletons.''

[LaurieAG]

I have actually been reading Robert Graves (he wrote I Claudius, Penguin classics) book on the myths of ancient Greece and he has some interesting theories with regards to the period between 1400bc and the time of Homers Iliad and Odyssey (800bc).

 

The structure of the analysis is fascinating, for each particular myth or legend, he presents and cites every reference available and then analyses the myth based on all the available historic and archeological evidence of the time.

 

He put forward an interesting theory about how all of the various Hercules/Herakles legends in all of the different areas (including the middle east, and especially the Amazon myths) were all connected to the supression of matrilinear child sacrifice cults that originated in Libya, around Lake Tritonius thousands of years before. This change to animal sacrifice to the gods was closely related to a change from an ancient female dominated religion/society to the classical greek pantheon of the gods dominated by men that laid the foundation for western culture as we know it today.

 

And to make it even more interesting, because there are ancient myths and legends about bones too, he says the reason for myths about large bones are either from a zulu like group found in one area of the middle east if human or a whale or porpoise bone if non human.

Edited November 19, 2012 by LaurieAG

[Moontanman]

Opposite to what Moon has stated, I on the other hand don't find it too difficult to discredit these claims. I've even had friends come up to me and say... '' did you see that we have uncovered massive skeletons...'' To which I kind of glare at them for a second and reply, ''it's not real.''

 

I then go on to say, ''If it had been real, you would have been sure to hear about it from every major news presenting company from all over the world. It would have been the biggest discovery of the century. Instead, people often see these things on dodgy sites or on youtube clips which have clearly been photoshopped - poorly in some cases. There is absolutely no credible scientific source which accredits the existence of these skeletons.''

 

What do you mean by that Aethelwulf? The OP gives us a huge list of stuff, all of it horse feathers but doesn't even list the items he wants to discuss and expects us to go through them one at a time and show why they are false but can't even type them out themselves? Couldn't even by bothered to cut and past them?

 

if you want to know why all those things are fake them type them in one at a time and I'll refute them but to expect me to go to the link and go over them my self and come back with reasons why they aren't shows me the op wasn't all that interested to begin with.

 

If you want to know if something is real or not then have the courtesy to ask them your self. Linking to a page full of horse feathers and expecting us to go over them all at once is thoughtless at the very least...

Edited November 21, 2012 by Moontanman

[Moontanman]

I have actually been reading Robert Graves (he wrote I Claudius, Penguin classics) book on the myths of ancient Greece and he has some interesting theories with regards to the period between 1400bc and the time of Homers Iliad and Odyssey (800bc).

 

The structure of the analysis is fascinating, for each particular myth or legend, he presents and cites every reference available and then analyses the myth based on all the available historic and archeological evidence of the time.

 

He put forward an interesting theory about how all of the various Hercules/Herakles legends in all of the different areas (including the middle east, and especially the Amazon myths) were all connected to the supression of matrilinear child sacrifice cults that originated in Libya, around Lake Tritonius thousands of years before. This change to animal sacrifice to the gods was closely related to a change from an ancient female dominated religion/society to the classical greek pantheon of the gods dominated by men that laid the foundation for western culture as we know it today.

 

And to make it even more interesting, because there are ancient myths and legends about bones too, he says the reason for myths about large bones are either from a zulu like group found in one area of the middle east if human or a whale or porpoise bone if non human.

 

 

Could you give me a link to that info? I would be interested in reading about it.

 

Elephant or mammoth skulls were often said to be giant cyclops, and proto triceratops fossils were connected with the myth of the griffin. Ancient animal bones were often used to show these myths to be true as well as others. Given their limited understanding it is easy to see how they could have been mislead by those bones...

[Aethelwulf]

What do you mean by that Aethelwulf?

 

 

Well you said you find it hard sometimes to refute these things... I am on your side here, only that I don't find it that hard to refute.

[Moontanman]

Well you said you find it hard sometimes to refute these things... I am on your side here, only that I don't find it that hard to refute.

 

 

 

Quite the contrary, refuting these things is generally easy, but it is rude to simply link to a large number of these things and then expect others to sort them out. It's like being presented wit a wall of text about many different things and expecting them to be refuted one by one.

 

If some one has a question about something expecting an answer to many of them at once is a creationist tactic to overwhelm anyone who is responding, win by default. her crack about me being an atheist was insulting as well. As thought i was too biased to be trusted and my response would be suspect because if it.

 

If someone wants an answer to a question i think they should at least form the questions and be willing to do a little typing themselves. Simply showing a link to many different things and asserting them as proof of the bible is rude and tiresome.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable for the OP to actually ask about each thing in their own words rather than simply cruise the net for links to shove at us...

Edited November 22, 2012 by Moontanman

[LaurieAG]

Hi Moontanman,

 

Could you give me a link to that info? I would be interested in reading about it.

 

I can't find the site but the PDF should be ok, just search for bones towards the end. The rest is very insightfull as well.

 

He wrote another book called 'The White Goddess' and the other PDF is an article. Brilliant stuff.

 

While he was a poet, in the celtic context, he was also a polymath.

Edited November 22, 2012 by LaurieAG

[CraigD]

Elephant or mammoth skulls were often said to be giant cyclops,

This explanation was common when I was introduced to ancient Greek history, in school in the 1970s, with the qualification that post-Mycenaean (what nowadays are called the “Greek Dark Ages”) Greek people discovered not modern elephant or extinct mammoth remains (none of which are found in Greece), but of extinct dwarf elephants remains, which are found on many islands near the Greek mainland. Like modern elephant sculls, the central cavity from which the live animal’s trunk emerges looks remarkably like a single huge eye socket in these sculls, while they are much smaller than modern elephant sculls, about twice the size of a human scull. Combined with mysterious large mortarless masonry ruins – “cyclopean walls” – the explanation that people about twice the height of modern humans, able physically lift the large stones in them, became a popular explanation, and the basis for the region and emerging culture’s giant myths, and the peculiarity that these giants were often imagined to have been one-eyed.

 

An overview timeline of ancient Greek history is needed to appreciate this well

• about 1900-1200 BC – the Mycenaean culture. Bronze tools and weapons, governed by wide regions from central fortresses, a scheme known as “palatial economy”. Had writing of a sort, but didn’t use it much, so little is known about these people other than through archeology and legends (which are, of course, of dubious accuracy).
  
• about 1100-700 BC – the “Dark Ages”. The Mycenaean culture is overrun by “sea barbarians”, perhaps – little is known with certainty, other than the old buildings were abandoned, and no more like them built. People live with informal government in small, perhaps single extended family villages, make iron tools and weapons, and write little or nothing.
  
• about 800-150 BC - “extended classical Greece” (my own term). City states and small empires, writing, art, philosophy and science which we read (most of us in translation) to this day.
  

And then came Rome.

 

I have actually been reading Robert Graves (he wrote I Claudius, Penguin classics) book on the myths of ancient Greece and he has some interesting theories with regards to the period between 1400bc and the time of Homers Iliad and Odyssey (800bc).

I ought to read more Robert Graves. Along with most neopagan/Wiccans of the time, I read, with a pretty high degree of credulity, his 1948 essay The White Goddess, in the 1970s. Unfortunately, I’ve no longer have a copy of it, and due I think in most part to its popularity as a Wiccan religious document, it remains a strongly publisher-guarded property, not in the public domain. Despite being nearly 100 years old, only a minority of Graves writing, mostly poetry collections, appear to be in the public domain.

 

The structure of the analysis is fascinating, for each particular myth or legend, he presents and cites every reference available and then analyses the myth based on all the available historic and archeological evidence of the time.

(bolding mine)

 

A problem with Graves’s writing, or perhaps more accurately with how people read it, is that it’s essentially imaginative, not scientific or history, but many of its readers believe that it is scientifically and historically well-supported. This thesis that prehistoric humans were predominantly matriarchal and goddess-worshiping, while intuitively appealing, isn’t supported by scientific evidence, nor based on an analysis of all, or even much, of the archeological data available when it was written, most of it 1920-1950. Even today, there’s not strong archeological evidence that prehistoric humans were not matriarchal and goddess-worshiping, but the absence of disproof doesn’t constitute proof.

 

My first serious questioning of the assumption of at least somewhat scientific validity of Grave’s hypothesis about early government and religion came in the wake of my reading, in the mid 1980s, the English translation of Gunter Grass’s much less well-knows, stylistically different, but thematically similar to Grave’s prehistoric matriarchy thesis 1997 German novel The Flounder. This novel presents an intuitively compelling deep history of prehistoric matriarchy and goddess worship replaced by patriarchy and god worship (encouraged by the title character, a magic fish derived from magic fish myths). However, although he references many real cultures and histories, Grass he makes no claims that his main history is other than metaphorical. Once I realized this, after striving for some time to find real historic references to his various fictional ones, I began searching for the support from at least some mainstream anthropologists, archeologists, and historians for Grave’s presentation of this history, and to my surprise, found none.

 

In short, many people (especially Wiccans) accepted the idea a general history of goddess displaced by gods because it feels profoundly true. Some do this because they are unaware or disbelieving of the absence of credible scientific support for the idea, others because, while aware of this, consider the feeling of truth to be more important, in a personal, religious context, to be more important, than actual, physical reality.

[LaurieAG]

Robert Graves actually made a compilation of all of the available information for all of the temples and sites described by Pausanias in the 2nd century AD from all available sources including Herodotus, all the Greek and Roman writers and all of the archaeological evidence for the past 3400 years or so up until 1960,

 

I actually managed to pick up both volumes of Pausanias Guide to Greece and can see how useful they are, especially the footnotes by someone who has been through most of the areas archaeology and papers. Pausanias wrote down all of the local legends told by his guides as he went around and described all of the architecture so the early archeologists went around in the 19th and 20th centuries and found what was left and noted discrepancies. Graves put together and consolidated all of the legends attached to all of the various greek gods and heroes in a similar way.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_(geographer)

Pausanias ( /pɔːˈseɪniəs/; Ancient Greek: Παυσανίας Pausanías) was a Greek traveler and geographer of the 2nd century AD, who lived in the times of Hadrian, Antoninus Pius and Marcus Aurelius. He is famous for his Description of Greece (Ἑλλάδος περιήγησις), a lengthy work that describes ancient Greece from firsthand observations, and is a crucial link between classical literature and modern archaeology.

 

The celtic traditions aren't actually Wiccans, a modern pagan religion, either as Irish Literature goes back a long way. The stuff you are talking about goes back to the 17th century and is not the 7th century literature (and before) that Robert Graves studied.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_literature

If we take, let us say, the "Annals of Ulster", which treat of Ireland and Irish history from about the year 444, but of which the written copy dates only from the 15th century, we find that they contain from the year 496 to 884 as many as eighteen records of eclipses and comets, and all these agree exactly to the day and hour with the calculations of modern astronomers. How impossible it is to keep such records unless written memoranda are made of them at the time by eyewitnesses is shown by the fact that Bede, born in 675, in recording the great solar eclipse which took place only eleven years before his own birth, is yet two days astray in his date; while on the other hand the "Annals of Ulster" give, not only the correct day, but the correct hour, thus showing that their compiler, Cathal Maguire, had access either to the original, or a copy of an original, account by an eyewitness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fili

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

Edited November 23, 2012 by LaurieAG