Windows 8

[Buffy]

Well Windows 8 is here, and filled with stuff to argue/complain about. What do you think and what are you going to do about it?

 

Missing Start button and lack of access to system functions are proving to make the thing a royal pain in the *** for professionals, and people are only starting to realize that touch apps really ought to work differently than mouse and keyboard apps. On the otherhand Windows RT is what windows developers have been dreaming of for a long time: ridding the Windows kernel of decades of crap.

 

Those of us who are actually *in* the computer business look at this as a reality and have to deal with it no matter what we think about it personally, but both personal and professional opinions are welcome here.

 

On a side note Steve Sinofsky--head of the Windows division and the idiot/genius behind 8--has been canned, er, left to pursue other opportunities... Ballmer and Gates finally figured out that having a non-team player who pissed off everyone else in the company might not be a good business strategy (the always snarky Code Project Newsletter said: "It's not you, it's... well, actually it is you. Seeya.")... Ding dong the warlock is dead! :cheer:

 

It is a common delusion that you make things better by talking about them, :phones:

Buffy

[Lancewen]

Well Windows 8 is here, and filled with stuff to argue/complain about. What do you think and what are you going to do about it?

 

Missing Start button and lack of access to system functions are proving to make the thing a royal pain in the *** for professionals, and people are only starting to realize that touch apps really ought to work differently than mouse and keyboard apps. On the otherhand Windows RT is what windows developers have been dreaming of for a long time: ridding the Windows kernel of decades of crap.

 

Those of us who are actually *in* the computer business look at this as a reality and have to deal with it no matter what we think about it personally, but both personal and professional opinions are welcome here.

 

On a side note Steve Sinofsky--head of the Windows division and the idiot/genius behind 8--has been canned, er, left to pursue other opportunities... Ballmer and Gates finally figured out that having a non-team player who pissed off everyone else in the company might not be a good business strategy (the always snarky Code Project Newsletter said: "It's not you, it's... well, actually it is you. Seeya.")... Ding dong the warlock is dead! :cheer:

 

It is a common delusion that you make things better by talking about them, :phones:

 

Buffy

 

Right now I'm okay with Windows 7 and am in no hurry to move to Windows 8. Also, Windows 8 is not the same thing on different types of machines. On tablets it's mostly just a group of Apps similar to those that run on a smart phone. They still call it Windows 8. So when you talk about Windows 8, you need to be a little more specific about what you are really referring to.

[CraigD]

I'm so out-of-touch with the Windows API for the past 5 years I'm unlikely to know much about Win8's anytime in soon (my work has morphed to purely server-side stuff, and my hobby time dwindled to almost nothing), but from what I gather from tech bloggery, it's something of a platform-dependent hodgepodge at present, the result more of a rush to market than a good consolidation of many different platforms. In short, in terms of success as device-independence OS, it's not yet back to the glory days of 1990's WinNT.

 

So I'll wait for Win9 or whatever its called, in the hope that Microsoft will play catch-up and fix this sorry state of affairs, while quietly grumbling that no end user should be aware of APs and OSs, had markup language realized their potential, and bitching about how nobody these days mentions mode errors, and that an app in the modern mobile device sense of the word is, fairly by definition, an intentional invitation to them.

 

I'm off now to reread Down With GUIs and change the imaginary flowers on my imaginary shrine to Jef Raskin. ;)

[labelwench]

Windows 7 is what I have here at home and also at the office. From what I have been observing of the discussions on various threads, not too many are singing the praises of Windows 8.

Then again, I had few complaints with Vista on my previous laptop because many of the features and prompts that experienced users were annoyed by were actually rather helpful to me at that stage of my

learning with computers.

 

I expect that I shall be at the mercy of the marketplace and whatever is available about the time I need to replace one of my computers. I don't anticipate a smart phone in my life anytime soon so all of the

technology geared toward those devices does not excite me.

[Buffy]

...Also, Windows 8 is not the same thing on different types of machines. On tablets it's mostly just a group of Apps similar to those that run on a smart phone. They still call it Windows 8. So when you talk about Windows 8, you need to be a little more specific about what you are really referring to.

 

Of course that's exactly part of the debate! :)

 

To clarify there are two versions of Windows 8 (ignoring the "Pro" and "Enterprise" versions which aren't a change):

• Windows 8 runs ONLY on Intel and runs all existing Windows software built on .Net and Win32 Libraries.
  
• Windows RT runs ONLY ARM chips (in the Surface tablet and others on the way), and supports only applications built with the new WinRT (AKA Metro UI) libraries.
  

 

The OS Kernel is actually the same for both, and that's why Windows 8 running on a desktop/laptop boots in a fraction of the time, and generally runs much faster than Windows 7. But it's the shift in the libraries that is going to drive users and developers nuts. It means on the tablet you will not get any legacy applications (although a pared down version of Office is bundled with it), and apps built to run on the tablet run full screen only on the desktop..."We don' need no steenkeen windows!"

 

If you're a developer, this is the usual "Microsoft completely redoes its programming paradigm every 5 years". We're kind of used to it. At least the Metro API has the same Class interface specs as .Net and uses XAML for UI specification, so it's actually a transition, but the dang thing is missing some pretty big chunks of functionality.

 

To be fair, the same is true of Apple's tablet/phone-only iOS versus MacOS. What many of us detest about what Sinofsky did was the crime of not recognizing that no, Desktop/Laptop devices are USED DIFFERENTLY from how Tablets/Phones are used, but he wanted to shove the tablet paradigm down everyone's throats.

 

The bet being that "the desktop/laptop computer is dead".

 

Like Mark Twain said, that may be "premature," if it indeed ever happens.

 

I've got one of absolutely everything and nothing I do on a tablet do I also do on a desktop/laptop in the same way. Even e-mail is something that I really only limit to "quick responses" when I'm using my tablet (an iPad if you're wondering although I'm getting an ARM Surface for development and will probably get an Intel Surface when they ship for personal use).

 

I really don't understand why people think that everyone is always only going to have one computer. The last time I only had one computer in the house was (oh god I'm old) *decades* ago.... While mostly it's been techies who do that, I really don't know many people who ONLY have a tablet.

 

And the real test, I have been telling people, is just try to do serious word processing or even spreadsheet work with a vertical touchscreen and no mouse. Go ahead. Try it. I dare you.

 

It's a rare person who wants to hear what he doesn't want to hear, :phones:

Buffy

[CraigD]

Win8 is PalmOS for the 2010s?!

 

This usability study summary of Win8 by Jakob Nielsen comes, well-informed, to the same conclusion I did, ill-informed:

I'll stay with Win7 the next few years and hope for better times with Windows 9. One great thing about Microsoft is that they do have a history of correcting their mistakes.

It also contained an observation that came as a shock to me:

One of the worst aspects of Windows 8 for power users is that the product's very name has become a misnomer. "Windows"

no longer supports multiple windows

on the screen. Win8 does have an option to temporarily show a second area in a small part of the screen, but none of our test users were able to make this work. Also, the main UI restricts users to a single window, so the product ought to be renamed "

Microsoft Window

.”

So, in short, big mouse-pointed-to desktop (or really big wall-mounted) screen or small candybar-style handheld alike, Win8 is essentially a high resolution variation on the single active window GUI that was a big hit under PalmOS in the 1990s and early 2000s.

 

I’m a big fan of PalmOS (and die-hard legacy user – I’ve kept a functioning Palm TX handheld on or near my person as my regular “personal digital assistant” for nearly a decade, well past its generally accepted extinction date and all hope of manufacturer support) and its design philosophy, and ca. 2000 seriously suggested the idea of something like it being implemented on large-screen devices, but share Nielsen’s conclusion that Microsoft’s design decision to really do this is very misguided (despite my enthusiasm for the idea a decade ago). It ignores, I think, a key aspect of the design philosophical points that made PalmOS devices successful 15 to 10 years ago: that handheld devices were best considered extensions of, not replacements for, stationary ones, and that while a single non-resizable window works well for a handheld’s GUI, it doesn’t for a larger-screened device.

 

I hope Win9 returns resizable windows for large screens to its GUI.

[Guest MacPhee]

Microsoft is a commercial company, which earns its money by selling. So it has to keep producing new versions of its best-selling product - Windows.

 

The company can't say: "Here is 'Windows-Ultimate'- the final, definitive version! Buy this, and you'll be set up for life - you'll never need to buy Windows from us again!." Obviously. Because once everyone had bought it, there'd be no more sales. And the company would die.

 

Isn't the simple explanation of the continual launching of new versions of Windows this - it's to sell the latest "hot product"?

Edited November 20, 2012 by MacPhee

[CraigD]

Microsoft is a commercial company, which earns its money by selling. So it has to keep producing new versions of its best-selling product - Windows.

Although It’s possible (I don’t have verifying or refuting data on hand) that the Microsoft sells more units per year of its Windows Operating Systems than of any other products, so one might call Windows its “best selling” product, it’s not its only product, or even the one responsible for most of its revenue or profit. For 2012, 25% of its revenue is from Windows, 25% from “server and tools”, the largest part, 33% from “business” (primarily Office), and the remaining 17% from its entertainment and online services and hardware. How Microsoft’s recent start of manufacturing a tablet/laptop-type computer, the Surface, will affect these numbers for 2013, I’ve no guess. (source: http://www.tannerhelland.com/4273/microsoft-money-updated-2012)

 

In short, Microsoft could arguable exit the OS making business, and remain or even become more profitable, though I think that’s unlikely to happen within the next 5 years.

 

The company can't say: "Here is 'Windows-Ultimate'- the final, definitive version! Buy this, and you'll be set up for life - you'll never need to buy Windows from us again!." Obviously. Because once everyone had bought it, there'd be no more sales. And the company would die.

Like much or most commercial software sold in the last couple of decades, the Windows End User License restricts the purchase of a single Windows (or Office or many of its lesser non-freeware products) license to a single computer, so even if no new versions of Windows were made, people and enterprises needing to continue to use the OS would need to continue to buy it as they replaced their PCs.

 

The “like a book” (any body can use one purchased copy of something on any computer, but no single person can use it on multiple computer, or more than one person use it, at the same time) software licensing model hasn’t been much used in the commercial marked since the late 1980s. So there are reasons other than wanting a newer version of a product to purchase a new copy/license of it.

 

PS: Microsoft actual does use the name “ultimate” for the most feature-rich version of Windows7, but not in the sense of “you’ll never need another OS than this one”, rather “this is the best version of Win7 you can buy”.

 

Isn't the simple explanation of the continual launching of new versions of Windows this - it's to sell the latest "hot product"?

I don’t think so, and haven’t any such conclusion by a business or technical expert.

 

The most common, and I think, correct, explanation for Microsoft’s having developed and sold its new Windows8 and RT OSs is that it is due to an observed trend and expectation of continued reduction in the number of and amount of money spent on, and possibly, in the near future, the near complete disappearance of old-fashioned keyboard and non-touchscreen computers, in favor of touchscreen computers, small and without boards, medium size with and without keyboards and large with and without keyboards. Compared to Google Android and Apple iOS, Windows7 and earlier versions are considered poorly suited for use in touchscreen devices, forcing Microsoft to produce a much changed version of their OS, Windows8.

[Lancewen]

Although It’s possible (I don’t have verifying or refuting data on hand) that the Microsoft sells more units per year of its Windows Operating Systems than of any other products, so one might call Windows its “best selling” product, it’s not its only product, or even the one responsible for most of its revenue or profit. For 2012, 25% of its revenue is from Windows, 25% from “server and tools”, the largest part, 33% from “business” (primarily Office), and the remaining 17% from its entertainment and online services and hardware. How Microsoft’s recent start of manufacturing a tablet/laptop-type computer, the Surface, will affect these numbers for 2013, I’ve no guess. (source: http://www.tannerhel...ey-updated-2012)

 

In short, Microsoft could arguable exit the OS making business, and remain or even become more profitable, though I think that’s unlikely to happen within the next 5 years.

 

What I've heard or read some time ago was that MS is planning to move the OS and all their applications into the cloud and the customers will pay by the month similar to how you pay your phone bill now. Using the OS would be your basic service and the Apps you use would just be added to your monthly bill. I can see it now, home plans, business plans and all kinds of service plans in between. The big advantage would be any device with Internet access could be built to make use of these services and getting a monthly payment from millions of customers is hard to beat as a business model.:rolleyes:

[CraigD]

What I've heard or read some time ago was that MS is planning to move the OS and all their applications into the cloud and the customers will pay by the month similar to how you pay your phone bill now.

Indeed.

 

“Cloud computing” is a darling of the computer industry these days, for sure, though the name is IMHO just a rebranding of older, less catchy names like “internet appliance” and “thin client” and “net PC” which were similarly dear at various times over the past 15 years or so.

 

The big advantage would be any device with Internet access could be built to make use of these services ...

No matter how “thin” the client, its hardware must run some OS or OS-like software to provide some sort of user interface and handle the actual connection to the internet, so not just any device with internet access can make use of any given cloud computing scheme, so I expect there will remain a need for such software for some time to come.

 

In an ideal IT world, served data and programs – “the cloud” – would be largely unaware of the nature of the hardware and software being used to accessing it, behaving appropriately on any of a large collection of “internet capable” devices and their software. Alas, I think the realization of runs so counter to the business that build and sell computers/communicators that it’s unlikely to see widespread use. As you say, arKane,

... getting a monthly payment from millions of customers is hard to beat as a business model.:rolleyes:

Another over-arching business principle is that the business purpose of selling computers and their software is not to provide their users with the ideal use experience, but to make the business doing this money. If making wonderfully good hardware and software can gain improve a company’s finances, making and selling it’s a good business practice. If not – or, in the extreme case, if it hurts the company – it isn’t. The “perfect computer” – one that allows any user to do anything she wants – poses a vexing business problem (which I’ve had explained to me by several MBA students): to be sound from a business perspective, it must make its seller as much as every device the user does not buy because the “perfect” one is better at a desired task than it; but pricing such a product, no matter how useful, so high results in it being bought by so few people, it make the company little money. My personal term for this is something like “the white suite conundrum”, after the 1951 movie The Man In The White Suit.

 

What concerns me most in the current computer industry is the not biz folk finding new ways to get customers to pay for what was formerly free (eg: storing data and computing in a pay cloud vs. on one’s own paid-for hardware), but the binding, via contracts, of hardware with software and services. While Apple is the current paragon of this, with its wildly popular “our OS and no other” hardware, I think Microsoft is scrambling to join in with its WinRT or Win8 only Surface.

[Moontanman]

Windows 8? I'm still running 32 bit Windows XP, wait let me stoke the fire box on my computer with coal...

[belovelife]

i wish i had xp,