Moon Base

[Deepwater6]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21293258

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point_colonization

 

Interesting designs, I have always been a proponent of setting up a base on the moon before we head to Mars. Call it a practice run, a place to work out the bugs that is not too far away from home. If we don't do that then at least a station at the Lagrange point.

 

You wouldn't start out learning how to hike mountians by starting off on K2 you would slowly build your way up. I think that's exactly what we need to do so our eventual Mars mission will be a success.

 

With so many private companies now involved hopefully progress will accelerate. Nothing gets things going better than good ole Capitalism. With all that free asteroid ore out there it's going to be a bonanza. :lol:

[Moontanman]

A base at one of the Lagrange points would be my first choice. I think bases on planets are inherently a bad idea. orbiting base/colonies make much more sense from an expended energy stand point.

[sigurdV]

A base at one of the Lagrange points would be my first choice. I think bases on planets are inherently a bad idea. orbiting base/colonies make much more sense from an expended energy stand point.

What is the reason for having a base there?

Arent resources a bit scarce?

What makes it worth its costs?

[sigurdV]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21293258

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point_colonization

 

Interesting designs, I have always been a proponent of setting up a base on the moon before we head to Mars. Call it a practice run, a place to work out the bugs that is not too far away from home. If we don't do that then at least a station at the Lagrange point.

 

You wouldn't start out learning how to hike mountians by starting off on K2 you would slowly build your way up. I think that's exactly what we need to do so our eventual Mars mission will be a success.

 

With so many private companies now involved hopefully progress will accelerate. Nothing gets things going better than good ole Capitalism. With all that free asteroid ore out there it's going to be a bonanza. :lol:

Moon is ok, but why go to Mars? Wheres the profit?

[Moontanman]

What is the reason for having a base there?

Arent resources a bit scarce?

What makes it worth its costs?

 

Lifting materials to the Lagrange points from the moon or the asteroids is fairly easy i concede but the Lagrange points can be used for bases that spin to produce artificial gravity and those bases can be moved around if need be but more importantly the lagrange points can be used for orbiting colonies. Easy to keep them in place, sunlight 24/7 for solar cells.

 

Moon is ok, but why go to Mars? Wheres the profit?

 

The profit is in having a colony off the earth in case of planet wide disaster.

[Moontanman]

The lagrange points of Jupiter contain huge amounts of material btw...

[Eclogite]

Moon is ok, but why go to Mars? Wheres the profit?

It is not about profit. Homo sapiens is a curious species. Our curiosity is integral to our success (and, arguably, our failures). Without curiosity we are no longer human.

 

Curiosity leads naturally to exploration and migration. We are destined by genetics to explore and colonise the solar system and then the galaxy. If we turn from that destiny, we turn from our humanity.

[sigurdV]

It is not about profit. Homo sapiens is a curious species. Our curiosity is integral to our success (and, arguably, our failures). Without curiosity we are no longer human.

 

Curiosity leads naturally to exploration and migration. We are destined by genetics to explore and colonise the solar system and then the galaxy. If we turn from that destiny, we turn from our humanity.

The profit motive has been mentiobed in the thread...I quote Deepwater:

"With so many private companies now involved hopefully progress will accelerate.

Nothing gets things going better than good ole Capitalism.

With all that free asteroid ore out there it's going to be a bonanza."

 

Theres three obvious factors behind space presence:

1 Curiosity

2 Defence

3 Profit

And I was not questioning colonizing space, I think Moon Factories is an important early step.

What I questioned was the desire to visit Mars as quickly as possible!

 

WHY MARS? WHY NOT VENUS?

Whenever I read someone discussing Space Travel I find him occupied with the desire to go to Mars!

Nine out of ten authors advocate Mars as the most important target for our efforts...

WHY? May I ask? Is there a rational explanation for the behaviour or not?

 

Is curiosity alone compelling you to go to Mars?

I think there must be other reasons for the amazing similarity of opinion!

Are there perhaps telepathic Marsian Virae inducing us to visit them?

 

Or is it simply so that the first author was keen on Mars and all you guys do is repeating his mistake?

[Rade]

What is the reason for having a base there?Arent resources a bit scarce?What makes it worth its costs?

 

HELIUM-3 ! See here:

 

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/10/china-launches-second-moon-mission-is-mining-helium-3-an-ultimate-goal.html

 

Now, helium-3 not only is a future source of energy using thermal nuclear fusion, it also has potential for use in LENR (low energy nuclear reaction) production of energy.

[Eclogite]

What I questioned was the desire to visit Mars as quickly as possible!

 

WHY MARS? WHY NOT VENUS?

The temperature on the surface of Venus is several hundred degrees centigrade. The technical requirements to survive there are an order of magnitude beyond that on Mars. The gravity well is almost as deep as the Earth's so leaving it would be very difficult in comparison with Mars, even if we took advantage of floatation rquipment to raise us high in the atmosphere. (That's the atmosphere with acid clouds and permanent hurricane force winds.)Mars, on the other hand, is almost as benign as the South col on Everest, or Brixton on a Friday night.

[sigurdV]

The temperature on the surface of Venus is several hundred degrees centigrade. The technical requirements to survive there are an order of magnitude beyond that on Mars. The gravity well is almost as deep as the Earth's so leaving it would be very difficult in comparison with Mars, even if we took advantage of floatation rquipment to raise us high in the atmosphere. (That's the atmosphere with acid clouds and permanent hurricane force winds.)Mars, on the other hand, is almost as benign as the South col on Everest, or Brixton on a Friday night.

You mean Sheeps go to Mars and Wolves to Venus?

Your thinking is guided away from the question WHY: YOU want us to go to MARS instead of SOMEWHERE ELSE!

I bet you some juicy straws of green grass that you will never be able to understand that question ;)

 

But your observation that it is HOT on Venus Ground is interesting?

We cant design an egg that will stay raw no matter how much you heat it?

 

This is a deep question! On first sight it looks as if we can: Just transform incoming heat to electricity and use it to cool the egg. But... energy transformations arent a 100% effective! Some heat wont get converted and if its not gotten rid off it will boil the egg eventually! The solution is to radiate it off ... making a part of the eggshell hotter than the surroundings and excess heat will go towards colder places outside the egg. Keeping the shell intact and its hotspot isolated from the inside and in its place will be tricky, especially if we place the egg within the Sun, but the problem seems solved in principle and can be radiated over to the Technicians.

[sigurdV]

HELIUM-3 ! See here:

 

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/10/china-launches-second-moon-mission-is-mining-helium-3-an-ultimate-goal.html

 

Now, helium-3 not only is a future source of energy using thermal nuclear fusion, it also has potential for use in LENR (low energy nuclear reaction) production of energy.

I can see the value of helium-3 but I dont see much of it in the Lagrange points.

I suggest we speed up installing the necessary infrastructure to harvest it from the Moon instead!

[Moontanman]

You mean Sheeps go to Mars and Wolves to Venus?

Your thinking is guided away from the question WHY: YOU want us to go to MARS instead of SOMEWHERE ELSE!

I bet you some juicy straws of green grass that you will never be able to understand that question ;)

 

But your observation that it is HOT on Venus Ground is interesting?

We cant design an egg that will stay raw no matter how much you heat it?

 

This is a deep question! On first sight it looks as if we can: Just transform incoming heat to electricity and use it to cool the egg. But... energy transformations arent a 100% effective! Some heat wont get converted and if its not gotten rid off it will boil the egg eventually! The solution is to radiate it off ... making a part of the eggshell hotter than the surroundings and excess heat will go towards colder places outside the egg. Keeping the shell intact and its hotspot isolated from the inside and in its place will be tricky, especially if we place the egg within the Sun, but the problem seems solved in principle and can be radiated over to the Technicians.

 

 

sigurdV, Venus is not just warm version of the Earth.

 

Venus is classified as a terrestrial planet and is sometimes called Earth's "sister planet" owing to their similar size, gravity, and bulk composition (Venus is both the closest planet to Earth and the planet closest in size to Earth). However, it has been shown to be very different from Earth in other respects. Venus is shrouded by an opaque layer of highly reflective clouds of sulfuric acid, preventing its surface from being seen from space in visible light. It has the densest atmosphere of the four terrestrial planets, consisting mostly of carbon dioxide. The atmospheric pressure at the planet's surface is 92 times that of Earth's. With a mean surface temperature of 735 K (462 °C; 863 °F), Venus is by far the hottest planet in the Solar System. It has no carbon cycle to lock carbon back into rocks and surface features, nor does it seem to have any organic life to absorb it in biomass. Venus may have possessed oceans in the past,[14] but these would have vaporized as the temperature rose due to the runaway greenhouse effect.[15] The water has most probably photodissociated, and, because of the lack of a planetary magnetic field, the free hydrogen has been swept into interplanetary space by the solar wind.[16] Venus's surface is a dry desertscape interspersed with slab-like rocks and periodically refreshed by volcanism.

 

We have not even been able to get a automated lander to survive for more than a few minutes on the surface.

 

The Soviet Venera 3 probe crash-landed on Venus on 1 March 1966. It was the first man-made object to enter the atmosphere and strike the surface of another planet, though its communication system failed before it was able to return any planetary data.[107] On 18 October 1967, Venera 4 successfully entered the atmosphere and deployed a number of science experiments. Venera 4 showed the surface temperature was even hotter than Mariner 2 had measured at almost 500 °C, and the atmosphere was about 90 to 95% carbon dioxide. The Venusian atmosphere was considerably denser than Venera 4's designers had anticipated, and its slower than intended parachute descent meant its batteries ran down before the probe reached the surface. After returning descent data for 93 minutes, Venera 4's last pressure reading was 18 bar at an altitude of 24.96 km.[107]

One day later on 19 October 1967, Mariner 5 conducted a fly-by at a distance of less than 4000 km above the cloud tops. Mariner 5 was originally built as backup for the Mars-bound Mariner 4, but when that mission was successful, the probe was refitted for a Venus mission. A suite of instruments more sensitive than those on Mariner 2, in particular its radio occultation experiment, returned data on the composition, pressure and density of the Venusian atmosphere.[108] The joint Venera 4 – Mariner 5 data were analyzed by a combined Soviet-American science team in a series of colloquia over the following year,[109] in an early example of space cooperation.[110]

Armed with the lessons and data learned from Venera 4, the Soviet Union launched the twin probes Venera 5 and Venera 6 five days apart in January 1969; they encountered Venus a day apart on 16 and 17 May that year. The probes were strengthened to improve their crush depth to 25 bar and were equipped with smaller parachutes to achieve a faster descent. Since then-current atmospheric models of Venus suggested a surface pressure of between 75 and 100 bar, neither was expected to survive to the surface. After returning atmospheric data for a little over 50 minutes, they both were crushed at altitudes of approximately 20 km before going on to strike the surface on the night side of Venus.[107]

 

The atmosphere at the surface is really hyper critical liquid CO2 at a temp of 500c and a pressure of almost 1500 psi, the surface literally glows red with heat.

 

Landing on Venus is not something easily done.

[sigurdV]

m: sigurdV, Venus is not just warm version of the Earth.

 

s: Yes I know. Ive seen the data on Venus before but I think it was a good decision of you to publish them in here!

 

m:We have not even been able to get a automated lander to survive for more than a few minutes on the surface.

 

s: So we do not know much of its inside then?

 

m:The atmosphere at the surface is really hyper critical liquid CO2 at a temp of 500c and a pressure of almost 1500 psi, the surface literally glows red with heat.

 

s: Its a challenge! Sheep will avoid it! Avoiding all challenges is not the best policy!

 

m:Landing on Venus is not something easily done.

 

s:And thats WHY we will go there eventually... but theres better things to do at the moment. At home...

[moonguy]

The lagrange points of Jupiter contain huge amounts of material btw...

Resources, yes. Energy? Alas, no.

[moonguy]

HELIUM-3 ! See here:

 

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/10/china-launches-second-moon-mission-is-mining-helium-3-an-ultimate-goal.html

 

Now, helium-3 not only is a future source of energy using thermal nuclear fusion, it also has potential for use in LENR (low energy nuclear reaction) production of energy.

I hope you are right about this. It will make Mercury the energy center of the Solar System. There is likely several times as much He3 in Mercury's atmosphere as on the Moon. Though I would like to know what is keeping the He3 age from dawning. . .

[moonguy]

Five things to do with a Lunar Base:

1) Incoming asteroid detection & interdiction.

2) Earth satellite retrieval, repair, refurbishment and repurposing.

3) Very much upgraded Deep Space Communications Network.

4) Nuclear rocket development facility.

5) Nuclear waste disposal/treatment facility.

These are not glamorous, high-ticket tasks for a Lunar Base. But each of these tasks are important and can potentially be money makers or at least be self-sustaining financially. They all require at least a few people. This goes beyond 'flags and footprints' or spending billions 'just to collect rocks.' We have to start somewhere. . .