Leave Mars Alone!

[sigurdV]

This thread is a spinoff from...aww it doesnt matter... I noticed an unexplained conformity of opinion:

Everybody wants to go to MARS! And I got suspicious: WHY GO TO MARS? Why not go somewhere else?

 

29-June 11 LocationStockholm Sweden Posted Today, 12:56 PM

 

Eclogite, on 16 April 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

 

It is not about profit. Homo sapiens is a curious species. Our curiosity is integral to our success (and, arguably, our failures). Without curiosity we are no longer human.

 

Curiosity leads naturally to exploration and migration. We are destined by genetics to explore and colonise the solar system and then the galaxy. If we turn from that destiny, we turn from our humanity.

 

I say:

 

The profit motive has been mentioned in the thread...I quote Deepwater:

 

"With so many private companies now involved hopefully progress will accelerate.

Nothing gets things going better than good ole Capitalism.

With all that free asteroid ore out there it's going to be a bonanza."

 

Theres three obvious factors behind space presence:

1 Curiosity

2 Defence

3 Profit

And I was not questioning colonizing space, I think Moon Factories is an important early step.

What I questioned was the desire to visit Mars as quickly as possible!

 

WHY MARS? WHY NOT VENUS?

Whenever I read someone discussing Space Travel I find him occupied with the desire to go to Mars!

Nine out of ten authors advocate Mars as the most important target for our efforts...

WHY? May I ask? Is there a rational explanation for the behaviour or not?

 

Is curiosity alone compelling you to go to Mars?

I think there must be other reasons for the amazing similarity of opinion!

Are there perhaps telepathic Marsian Virae inducing us to visit them?

 

Or is it simply so that the first author was keen on Mars and all you guys do is repeating his mistake?

[JMJones0424]

WHY MARS? WHY NOT VENUS?

 

Mars is technically much easier to go to, and very much easier to return from. Venus's lower atmosphere is very hot, corrosive, and quite dense. Venus's greater gravity means far mor energy is required to escape and Venus's much denser atmosphere means rocket engines would be far less efficient when taking off from Venus rather than from Mars.

[Moontanman]

You go to Venus sigurdV better take some barbecue sauce with you, those 450c temps and 90 bar atmosphere will be a bit difficult to ignore i bet...

[Eclogite]

The posts here reflect my observations in the other thread. The executive summary: walk before you run.

[sigurdV]

(Oh the paradigmic thinking of my contemporaries...sigh!)

 

What on Venus (pun intended) shall we at the moment do on the surface of Venus?

 

Its obvious Natural Resource is its atmosphere! Its rich in carbon and oxygen

and most elements needed for carbohydrates except for Hydrogen...

But that can be harvested from "empty" space. So the idea is ORBITING VENUS!

For instance producing oxygen oil and other interesting carbohydrates for export to Moon and Earth!

 

If we want we can genetically modify algae to live in the upper layers where the temperature is low enough to

 

establish lighter than CO2 colonies... theres more liveable room than a dozen (at least) earth surfaces there...

 

Venus is a truly gigantic source of OIL and oxygen! Do you get the point now?

Edited April 16, 2013 by sigurdV

[Moontanman]

Yes sigurdV I see your point but if you comb your hair right i think you might be able to hide it...

 

Dragging something out of a gravity well and bringing it back to Earth takes far more energy than could be got from it on the Earth so oil is not likely to be imported from other planets... even if you could make it from the atmosphere of Venus it would make much more sense both in energy expended and ease of removal to take hydrocarbons from Titan, in theory at least you could pump then into orbit with a pipe the gravity is so low...

 

Floating colonies in the atmosphere of Venus is not a unique idea but the technical problems not to mention the result of failure seems to be a bit unlikely to be popular...

 

And last but not least... how do you harvest hydrogen from empty space?

[sigurdV]

The posts here reflect my observations in the other thread. The executive summary: walk before you run.

Im not sure what you mean?

I am only prospecting at the moment?

Identifying resources.

Im not really making a proposal.

Just pointing out possibilities

 

What "walking" are you referring to.

Prospecting the resources in low Earth orbit?

Deciding on methods of transportation?

Establishing low orbit farming?

Establishing a selfsufficient spacestation?

Where do you think the crawl should start?

Here on Earth?

[Eclogite]

Venus is a truly gigantic source of OIL and oxygen! Do you get the point now?

Totally, but do you really want me to demonstrate the monumental 'lack of intellectual depth' to your proposal? I need to declare up front, I shall not pull any punches.

[sigurdV]

Yes sigurdV I see your point but if you comb your hair right i think you might be able to hide it...

You assume too much. Its not healthy. What if Im bald?

 

 

Dragging something out of a gravity well and bringing it back to Earth

That is obviously how NOT to do it.

Do you think its necessary to always use the most inefficient methods to bring about a result?

I think I said somewhere close to here that one should "discuss methods" of transportation in space!

I didnt mean "assume the most inefficient methods"

 

takes far more energy than could be got from it on the Earth so oil is not likely to be imported from other planets...

With the methods you suggests it seems unlikely indeed!

But surely you CAN think of better methods? Cant you?

How about using Solar Power?

Together with automated processes?

Getting resources for free, except initial costs?

[even if you could make it from the atmosphere of Venus

Of course it can be done! Why doubt that?

...it would make much more sense both in energy expended and ease of removal to take hydrocarbons from Titan, in theory at least you could pump then into orbit with a pipe the gravity is so low...

And then you suggest rockets to transport it?

 

 

Floating colonies in the atmosphere of Venus is not a unique idea...

Yes ... It was a big surprise to me to see somebody else think out of the box!

 

but the technical problems not to mention the result of failure

seems to be a bit unlikely to be popular...

It surely depends on who designs the systems...

Im not sure how disastrous it is to loose a machine now and then...

And last but not least... how do you harvest hydrogen from empty space?

The obvious idea is to use the same method as the earth does...magnetism.

But maybe theres a better method:Im thinking of a vacumcleaner ;)

 

Surely the best way to transport matter resources in space

is to "throw" it to where its wanted?

If we are talking ions we simply use induction,

and for larger things we equip them with ion engines and/or solar sails.

If its automated theres only the initial costs to pay!

Leaving Rockets for impatient humans ;)

 

To this I add my "vacumcleaner"...and I dont know if it works or not,

but the idea is to use lots of concentrated sunrays to transport things:

(Light carries momentum ive heard)

We collect lots of energy in the form of concentrated sunshine

let it pass through space to venus where the hydrogen "pushed" by the ray

travelling thorough space, is collected via induction...

the ray then passes through the outest layer of

atmospere forcing CO2 all the way to the Moon.

The ray eventually finding its way to solar energy collectors on Earth. ;)

IF this works then we can vaporise asteroids

collect vapors in a ray transporting it to factories near earth

or wherever we want to construct things.

This needs lots of machinery NOT exported from Earth:

We begin it ALL by building a factory making factories

(among other possible things like solar power collectors,

induction rails etc etc)

and transport it to the Moon then we sit back and watch.

 

Of course this is not a proposal... its just a sketch showing guiding principles:

Effinciensy and Automation. This should be thoroughly researched and tested here on Earth FIRST!

 

Perhaps in designing underground,underwater and desert automated industry and farming...

Perhaps there is empty space on Earth that could be put to productive automated use?

[Deepwater6]

Let me say up front that I'm a Mars first planet proponent. I only have one issue/question with this scenario. How can we make Mars habitable for humans in the very long term without suits?

 

We may be able to make it warmer we are experts when it comes to global warming, and we may be able to bring algae and plant life up, but what about a magnetic field? Since Mars has a dormant core and no longer generates a suitable MF for humans. How will that be accomplished? Wouldn't that be problem for a mass migration in the far future? We may be able to create an atmosphere, but without a MF would we be protected from all that the Sun puts out?

 

On another note I agree with most of the pro Mars group. You wouldn't learn to hike and rock climb by starting out Mt Everest. You would slowly get the kinks out and train in a tamer setting. Mars (other than the moon) is best place to train for something like that.

[sigurdV]

Totally, but do you really want me to demonstrate the monumental 'lack of intellectual depth' to your proposal? I need to declare up front, I shall not pull any punches.

Yess Please! Show me to be a dunce! But ...ahem...where did I refere to what as a proposal?

 

BTW I have nothing against Mars its simply that its not as rich in resources as Venus.

Also Venus is closer to the Sun ...and to give you a sporting chance to show Im a hopeless case

I now propose we visit the sun! ( ahem not personally but with a probe )

[Eclogite]

But ...ahem...where did I refere to what as a proposal?

Is this not a proposal?

 

So the idea is ORBITING VENUS!

For instance producing oxygen oil and other interesting carbohydrates for export to Moon and Earth!

[sigurdV]

"ORBITING VENUS" Is this not a proposal?

Well...yes...I agree, but its so plain ... I felt orbiting Venus to harvest its natural resources to be so ordinary... no glory in it!

No real challenge! I hesitate to use the solemn word "proposal". Isnt words like "errand" more apt?

But I consider myself committed... So be it then:

 

After establishing the proper infrastructure on the Moon we go to Venus in order to import its atmosphere!

 

What then will the situation be on the Moon when we start our vacation trip to Venus? Lets visit a Turing Factory.

You never heard of them before? Neither did I: "Turing Machine" can be googled for, but is NOT what I had in mind...

Im not sure It WAS Alan Turing who came up with the idea that a Machine might make a Copy of itself!

It doesnt really matter to me, he was a clever guy deserving to be honoured!

 

A Turing factory produces Turing Factories! Simple huh?

And we put one together on the surface of the Moon out of parts constructed on Earth.

This was the costly phase of the Project: the rest is really nothing but profit!

 

-Here we are: (Wherever it will turn out to be.) This is Our original Moon Factory! As you can see its still working.

Turing out inductors intended for inducing inductors all the way to Venus!

Hey! Stop ogling the beautiful girls around you! Were here on business remember?

Theres more females than men here...this evening your presence wont be unnoticed I assure you...

[CraigD]

What then will the situation be on the Moon when we start our vacation trip to Venus? Lets visit a Turing Factory.

You never heard of them before? Neither did I: "Turing Machine" can be googled for, but is NOT what I had in mind...

Im not sure It WAS Alan Turing who came up with the idea that a Machine might make a Copy of itself!

You’re thinking of the wrong early 20th century mathematician/computer scientist, Sigurd – it wasn’t Alan Turing, but John von Neumann, who spoke of self-reproducing non-biological machines in 1948. Von Neumann approached this idea in a very formal mathematical way (as he did most of his ideas), and didn’t give it as much thought as some of his more immediately practical ideas, so while “Von Neumann machine” is sometime used to refer to a hypothetical (despite lots of effort, one has yet to be made, though we appear to be getting closer – see the ”recent work” section of the above linked wikipedia article) machine that can make copies of itself from raw materials, it’s more commonly recognized as meaning an electronic computer with Von Neumann architecture. Most present-day electronic computers can be considered to have a kind of extended Von Neumann architecture.

 

The idea of self-replicating machines became widely popular in the 1950s, and even more in the 1980s, when the idea that they could be used for huge engineering projects, on Earth or off, became widely explored in science fiction and non-fiction. I’m unaware of any evidence that Von Neumann gave these ideas much thought, or spoke or wrote about them being used on extraterrestrial bodies. Freeman Dyson may deserve the credit for proposing this idea, as a though experiment he whimsically named “astrochicken.”

 

A Turing machine, as you may have discovered in you googling, is an abstract model for a computer. Though not practically useful for building actual computers, the Turing machine has and continues to be important as a mathematical model for exploring and proving ideas about computing.

 

It doesnt really matter to me, he was a clever guy deserving to be honoured!

I very much agree – Von Neumann, Turing, Dyson, and many others deserve to be honored, and among people with math and science backgrounds, are. The best way I know to do this is study their work.

 

A Turing factory produces Turing Factories! Simple huh?

No, not simple! As I mention above, despite lots of funding and work by more than a generation of technologists, we still haven’t succeeded in making a self-reproducing non-biological machine (we are self-reproducing biological machines). It’s a complicated and difficult challenge.

 

There’s also some IMHO well-founded cause for safety concerns, should we succeed in making self-reproducing machines: that such machines could “run amok”, converting more raw material than we want into copies of themselves, leading to such doomsday scenarios as devouring the Earth and everything on it. I personally think such disasters can be avoided, but am uncertain if malicious people might not be able to use such technology to make terrible weapons.

 

And we put one together on the surface of the Moon out of parts constructed on Earth.

This was the costly phase of the Project: the rest is really nothing but profit!

When dealing with the hypothetical economics of self-reproducing machines, it’s important to consider that profits from them might be canceled by other people using the technology, resulting in the product they manufacture (other than copies of themselves) flooding their market so much their price drops. This can be especially true if we assume that a likely spin-off the technology necessary for self-reproducing machines is machines that can produce practically anything from cheap raw materials – “fabbers”. Though present-day ones are limited in the kinds of products they can “print” (this is essentially the hurtle blocking the invention of a successful self-reproducing machine), in the future, this technology may revolutionize – and, as often happens in revolutions, demolish existing – concepts of cost, revenue, and profit.

 

Venus is a truly gigantic source of OIL and oxygen! Do you get the point now?

I understand your claim, sigurd, and applaud the imagination you show by making it, but think it’s wrong.

 

Oil is a mixture of various molecules with chemical formulas of approximately C_nH_2n. There’s essentially none in Venus’s atmosphere, and while too little exploration of its surface and subsurface has been done to know with certainty, likely not much there.

 

Venus’s atmosphere is a gigantic source of CO₂. Oxygen is not available from CO₂ without considerable use of energy.

 

CO₂ is cheap and abundant on Earth, so new sources of it aren’t in demand.

 

Assuming a need for lots of CO₂ – say, to give the Moon an artificial, greenhouse effect-intense atmosphere, the energy spent to move it there to here is about 6.78 mJ/kg (to check this, the orbital mechanics are left for an excercise for the reader ;) - let me know if I can help). The energy density of kerosene burned with oxygen is about 21 mJ/kg. So, to move Venus’s atmosphere to Earth/Luna using it as a fuel, it would have to be nearly 33% oil and oxygen!

 

The only way I can imagine moving huge masses like atmospheres from orbit to orbit in the inner solar system would involve gigantic solar sails – perhaps doing double-duty as gas bags, as something would be needed to prevent the gas from diffusing into space. Pretty fun stuff, but very futuristic engineering.

[sigurdV]

The only way I can imagine moving huge masses like atmospheres from orbit to orbit in the inner solar system would involve gigantic solar sails – perhaps doing double-duty as gas bags, as something would be needed to prevent the gas from diffusing into space. Pretty fun stuff, but very futuristic engineering.

Suppose the gasbag ruptures then the gas diffuses...why?

Its because the vectors are random...

Give all molecules a strong push

in the same direction and the cloud will not diffuse.

Making my river of Venusian air to the Moon possible...

[sigurdV]

You’re thinking of the wrong early 20th century mathematician/computer scientist, Sigurd – it wasn’t Alan Turing, but John von Neumann, who spoke of self-reproducing non-biological machines in 1948. Von Neumann approached this idea in a very formal mathematical way (as he did most of his ideas), and didn’t give it as much thought as some of his more immediately practical ideas, so while “Von Neumann machine” is sometime used to refer to a hypothetical (despite lots of effort, one has yet to be made, though we appear to be getting closer

 

Youre absolutely right of course but why be absolute? Im satisfied with what we can do today:

A remotely controlled factory able to build another factory like itself!

 

I dont recall (as usual) who said we will never fly because our muscles arent strong enough...(We are flying now.)

 

Venus is a truly gigantic source of OIL and oxygen! Do you get the point now?

 

I understand your claim, sigurd, and applaud the imagination you show by making it, but think it’s wrong.

Actually "the Oil" was Metaphorically used, but a flood of oil to the Moon and/or Marth might be put to some use...

 

I personally cant understand the attraction planetary surfaces has on the imaginations of everyone. I guess its as when the idea of becoming farmers were discussed among hunters/gatherers... We will undergo heavy self-controlled evolution in the future depending on our lifestyles. Most of us will be not much more than brain tissues in free fall with reproductive and digestive organs since thinking that something needs to be done will be enough to bring it about through "machinery".But that is rather far in the future so forget I said it ;)

 

My "plan A" rests on the idea that matter resources are transported in molecular form in "rivers" through space and at destination are put together computer aided into usable objects distributed locally. Actually I havent bothered any classifying, I change the whole picture if some basic building block turns out to be faulty.

 

Venus has everything we need for colonisation except hydrogen so where do we find it? I look at the solar wind it carries lots of hydrogen from the sun ... how do we collect it? We could try magnetism but wheres the iron? It seems we have forgotten something in the picture... we havent finished the infrastructure on the Moon!

Thats why we dont understand how to do things at the moment. So lets return to the moon.

[Eclogite]

Suppose the gasbag ruptures then the gas diffuses...why?

Its because the vectors are random...

Give all molecules a strong push

in the same direction and the cloud will not diffuse.

Making my river of Venusian air to the Moon possible...

No. Why? Temperature.