Is There A Doctor In The House?

[Knothead]

I hope I'm not pilloried to severely for asking this question, but I have to know.

There is this guy, Jeff Bauman, who supposedly got both legs blown off by the bomb in Boston. Now according to a lot of people who claim to have studied the photos and video of the incident. This guy Bauman, after having both legs blown off, I mean bones sticking out and everything, was able to stay awake and aware for almost 7 minutes. Much of that time he was laying, unattended on the sidewalk. When he was finally removed from the scene, he was placed in a wheelchair and a fellow in a cowboy hat ran along side him holding an artery or something that evidently had just started bleeding. From these same sources I am led to believe that the human body only holds 5 or 6 liters of blood.

Is it really possible that he would be able to stay alive and awake after having both legs blown off? Wouldn't he have at least passed out after that long?

This is a serious question and I hope no one will jump to premature conclusions about my sanity or gullibility. <_<

[Knothead]

Thank you. I believe that tells me everything I needed to know.

[CraigD]

There is this guy, Jeff Bauman, who supposedly got both legs blown off by the bomb in Boston. Now according to a lot of people who claim to have studied the photos and video of the incident. This guy Bauman, after having both legs blown off, I mean bones sticking out and everything, was able to stay awake and aware for almost 7 minutes.

I don’t have first-hand knowledge of Jeff Bauman’s injuries (for which I’m glad, as I prefer to keep well away from bomb explosions), but from a photo that I believe is authentic, believe that report that he had both legs blown off by the bomb are inaccurate. It appears Bauman sustained such terrible injuries to his legs that it was necessary to amputate both well above the knee, but that at least one of them was still attached when he was taken to the hospital.

 

When he was finally removed from the scene, he was placed in a wheelchair and a fellow in a cowboy hat ran along side him holding an artery or something that evidently had just started bleeding. From these same sources I am led to believe that the human body only holds 5 or 6 liters of blood.

Is it really possible that he would be able to stay alive and awake after having both legs blown off? Wouldn't he have at least passed out after that long?

I do have firsthand knowledge of people staying conscious and fairly alert for hours after losing lots of blood from arterial bleeding, so don’t find that Bauman could have extraordinary.

 

I don’t believe a person could surviving untreated after having both legs severed above the knee by the kind of shrapnel thrown by the 15 Apr 2013 Boston bomb – but this doesn’t appear to have happened to Bauman.

 

Reports of Bauman having both legs “blown off” with “bones sticking out”, and that he should not have been able to remain conscious, seem to have come from IMHO outrageous and reprehensible claim made by NH congresswoman Stella Tamblay that the Boston bombing was a hoax, and injured people like Bauman actors with injuries simulated with makeup and prosthetics. This 3 May 2013 Huffingtonpost.com story is one of many stories about Tamblay’s claim.

[Knothead]

I don’t have first-hand knowledge of Jeff Bauman’s injuries (for which I’m glad, as I prefer to keep well away from bomb explosions), but from a photo that I believe is authentic, believe that report that he had both legs blown off by the bomb are inaccurate. It appears Bauman sustained such terrible injuries to his legs that it was necessary to amputate both well above the knee, but that at least one of them was still attached when he was taken to the hospital.

 

 

I do have firsthand knowledge of people staying conscious and fairly alert for hours after losing lots of blood from arterial bleeding, so don’t find that Bauman could have extraordinary.

 

I don’t believe a person could surviving untreated after having both legs severed above the knee by the kind of shrapnel thrown by the 15 Apr 2013 Boston bomb – but this doesn’t appear to have happened to Bauman.

 

Reports of Bauman having both legs “blown off” with “bones sticking out”, and that he should not have been able to remain conscious, seem to have come from IMHO outrageous and reprehensible claim made by NH congresswoman Stella Tamblay that the Boston bombing was a hoax, and injured people like Bauman actors with injuries simulated with makeup and prosthetics. This 3 May 2013 Huffingtonpost.com story is one of many stories about Tamblay’s claim.

 

eff Bauman, the young man who lost both legs below the knee in the Boston bombing, gave an interview to a radio personality. A recording of the interview can be listened to here. Jeff describes what it was like to be blown up and nearly killed, and how it all went down.

 

Jeff made eye contact with Bomber #1 as he dropped his bomb-containing bag and departed. Five minutes later the bomb blew off the lower half of Jeff's legs, as well as killing three people and injuring over 200 more.

 

Carlos Arredondo, a civiian in a cowboy hat, saved Jeff's life by pinching off the artery in his right leg, preventing him from bleeding out. Carlos commandeered a wheelchair and rolled Jeff to an ambulance. Since the explosion, Jeff and Carlos have kept in touch on a daily basis. Jeff was invited to come to a Red Sox game for a presentation to the fans, but said he would only do it if Carlos could come too.

 

http://saberpoint.blogspot.com/2013/04/hear-interview-of-bombing-victim-jeff.html

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T1K6PsNM5c

 

check the 35 to 36 second mark

[CraigD]

The youtube video, as is characteristic of small video files, is low-resolution. This still image,

 

 

, from this 16 Apr 2013 Mirror.com article (the Mirror is considered a tabloid, but does not appear to have altered the image) is better quality.

 

From the image, quotes from Jeff Bauman’s father that his son had both legs amputated, and short statement from this recording 26 Apr 2013 Dennis and Callahan radio show interview with Bauman, I’m increasingly confident in my impression that Bauman’s legs were grievously injured, but not detached, by the explosion.

 

A closer look at the photo (I wouldn’t recommend much such looking, as it can be emotionally hurtful to look as such injuries, especially when not necessary to give first aid or medical care) shows that a tourniquet was tied to his left leg above the knee to control its bleeding, apparently by Carlos Arredondo, the man in the cowboy hat. Arrendondo first aid and assistance appears to have been excellent. Without it, Bauman would likely have died.

 

I’m now near 100% sure that sensation claims that Bauman’s legs were “blown off … with bones showing”, such as those made by politician Stella Tamblay (who actually claimed that Bauman was not injured, but wearing makeup and prosthetics to appear injured as part of a hoax), as simply exaggeration taken so far they’re simply untrue.

 

I regret that surgeons were not able to repair the damage to Bauman’s legs enough to save them, and instead had to amputate them in order to save his life. It’s possible that, had he been the only seriously injured person in the ER that day, more heroic surgery could have been attempted and successful, and his legs saved. This sort of surgery is a race to restore the blood supply to tissue where it’s been severed by damage to many large and small arteries and veins before the tissue dies from lack of it, and is difficult when several skilled surgeons and nurses are available to treat a single patient for many hours. When there are more patients in need of immediate treatment then there are clinicians, the difficulty of saving the patients’ lives, let alone their limbs, is even greater.

 

I believe these medical pros, and the many non-pros like Arrendondo who reacted well to the bombing, are well deserving of the great praise they’ve received. :thumbs_up

 

The people who claimed, and continue to claim, that the bombing was a hoax, offering as evidence such things as their impression that the expression on Jeff Bauman’s face was not what they would expect for a badly injured person, are in my opinion, deserving of contempt. :thumbs_do

[Moontanman]

I was severely injured in a boating accident, the idea of passing out from pain is somewhat exaggerated, in fact shock often sets in and you stay awake and in outrageous pain... I wouldn't recommend the experience...

[Knothead]

I was severely injured in a boating accident, the idea of passing out from pain is somewhat exaggerated, in fact shock often sets in and you stay awake and in outrageous pain... I wouldn't recommend the experience...

 

I was hit by a car while riding a moped once and I went into shock. I actually walked a couple of miles after the accident and have no memory of it or of any pain. When I "came to" a few hours later. The pain was intense.

But I'm talking about someone who had both legs blown clean off below the knees and laid unattended on a sidewalk for the better part of 7 minutes or so. There is abundant video footage and still photographs of him and many of the other victims that was taken immediately after the bomb blast. There are numerous photos from different sources and angles that clearly show both lower legs gone and a splintered bone sticking out.

 

Anyway, I just want to know what happens to someone when they get both legs blown off. How long does it take to pump out all of the bodies blood? Sadly, there probably is lot of data on what happens in injuries like this.

[SaxonViolence]

Well, I worked in slaughterhouses for a few years.

 

If seen beaucoup animals bled out.

 

I've seen them thrash about long after they should have been close to dry.

 

Had they been human and close to a hospital, it is difficult to say at what point copious transfusions and some judicious repair might have saved them.

 

 

Saxon Violence

 

 

Why did the strange congressman think that the bombing was a hoax?

 

What could possibly be gained by such a ruse?

 

How could it have been pulled of in such a public place?

[CraigD]

But I'm talking about someone who had both legs blown clean off below the knees and laid unattended on a sidewalk for the better part of 7 minutes or so. There is abundant video footage and still photographs of him and many of the other victims that was taken immediately after the bomb blast. There are numerous photos from different sources and angles that clearly show both lower legs gone and a splintered bone sticking out.

You’re right, Knothead. I’d stopped looking after finding a few of the less disturbing, most prominently published photos of Jeff Bauman, but others exist which show that that both his feet were removed by the explosion, and that about half the flesh of his left calf was removed, exposing perhaps 40 cm of tibia, the exposed end of it missing its wide lower ankle joint. His right leg appears to have been even more badly injured. They’re horrible injuries and horrible photos – I can see why the more common, “iconic” photos of him in the wheelchair with Carlos Arredondo beside him have been cropped to hide that part of his injuries.

 

I’m not an MD, but my father was a US Army surgeon, and I’ve worked most of my life in and supporting hospitals and outpatient clinics, and have had a pretty good – though not as thorough as an MD’s – formal and informal education in human anatomy and physiology, so feel mildly qualified to comment. In trauma medicine terms, an injury that removes the flesh from around a bone is called “gloving”, and is most commonly associated with finger and hand injuries. They’re worse than clean amputations, because the number of severed blood vessels and nerves is greater, making it difficult to impossible to reattach the severed flesh, so in almost all cases, even ones where time and too few surgeons for too many patients is not a factor, the limb should be amputated well above the injury. This appears to have been what was done in Bauman’s case – despite there being perhaps 20 cm of intact flesh and bone below his left knee, and the advantages to a below-the-knee amputation to above-the-knee, surgeons amputate both of his legs above the knees. This decision may have been driven by other injuries higher up his legs not visible in the photos I’ve looked at.

 

Switching subjects from medicine to sociology, what I’ve found searching for information about Bauman’s injuries that disturbs me as much as their horrific severity is that most of the websites that continue to display the more revealing, uncropped photos of him and other 15 Apr 2013 Boston bombs victims are “denialist” websites, claiming that the photos are forgeries or the injuries simulated, the victims actors. This is the unpleasant, underside of the internet, of which I think most of us are aware, but I at least try to avoid spending much time viewing. Here there be trolls.

 

Anyway, I just want to know what happens to someone when they get both legs blown off. How long does it take to pump out all of the bodies blood?

Short answer: forever.

 

Even with very fast bleeding, the heart usually slows and stops before it can pump all of the blood out of the body. Bleeding so much you die is called exsanguination (a term you need only watch vampire horror movies, not crack a physiology textbook, to know). I’ve read different figures for the amount of blood remaining in body after exsanguination – a standard value is “less than 60% (about 3 L), but I believe that as low as 30% (1.5 L) is possible.

 

To more completely exanguinate a human or other animal body, the blood must continue to be removed after the heart has stopped, such as by cutting the arteries in the neck, and hanging the body neck-down.

 

There are many factors that determine how fast a human or non-human animal bleeds, and whether the bleeding stops before they die. We can’t know the precise details of Jeff Bauman’s case – we’re an internet science forum, not an accredited medical research organization, and even if we were, we’d need his consent to study of publish such information – but we can imagine a hypothetical case resembling his, and consider the factors involved:

 

The patient’s lower legs are “blown off” by a bomb blast. This involves both cutting by shrapnel, and force of its impact and blast air pressure, resulting in both laceration and tearing. Major bleeding is from the posterior tibial artery, not the larger femoral artery found above the knee. These arteries and the smaller vessels severed respond by constricting, reducing bleeding. A tourniquet is applied above the knees, further restricting bleeding. The patient is taken to the hospital.

 

Because the patient is conscious at this time, they have likely lost less than 40% (2 L) of blood.

 

At the hospital, the larger blood vessels are closed with sutures, and the smaller ones cauterized, effectively stopping bleeding, and at the same time blood volume is restored by transfusing 1 to 3 units of blood (a unit is either 0.45 or 0.5 L) and saline solution.

 

At this point, the patient is out of danger of death from blood loss (hypovolemia), but the blood supply to the tissue around his injuries is inadequate to prevent them from dying (necrosis), which would eventually lead to fatal infection. So the legs are amputated above the knees.

 

Sadly, there probably is lot of data on what happens in injuries like this.

Actually, I’ve not seen much or very detailed data of such things as “how much a patient with so-an-so vital statistics bled before dieing”. The focus of emergency medicine is to prevent death, not study it, and the easiest way to gather such data – cause people to bleed to death in a controlled setting, where the moment of death and volume of blood can be precisely measured – is profoundly unethical. I’ve heard stories of corrupt ancient and modern governments or other powerful organizations conducting such experiments, but haven’t seen any actual, detailed results of them, leading me to suspect it may not exist.

 

Even if a patient consented to such a study, I suspect no clinician would want to do it, because of the ethical stigma attached to it. Medical culture is very averse to anything that might be perceived as “mad scientist” experiments, or even studies or metastudies. I became very conscious of this cultural attitude as a child, when I would routinely ask my father such questions, to which he would respond only with general explanations of physiology, never hard data, or suggestions to where I might read about the subject.

[Knothead]

Switching subjects from medicine to sociology, what I’ve found searching for information about Bauman’s injuries that disturbs me as much as their horrific severity is that most of the websites that continue to display the more revealing, uncropped photos of him and other 15 Apr 2013 Boston bombs victims are “denialist” websites, claiming that the photos are forgeries or the injuries simulated, the victims actors. This is the unpleasant, underside of the internet, of which I think most of us are aware, but I at least try to avoid spending much time viewing. Here there be trolls.

 

I totally get that. There are some subjects that are really too disturbing for most sane folks to spend much time thinking about. Perhaps it because I've given up watching television, but I've been spending quite a bit of time online lately. Maybe too much. But I have to say that some of those crazy conspiracy theory trolls make some pretty convincing points.

Here's an article that is heavy with disturbing pictures, but they are disturbing not so much because of their gruesomeness, but the implications of the story they tell.

 

http://enfordummies.com/wordpress/more-proof-evidence-boston-bombing-man-leg-blown-off-fake/

 

I really don't expect you to check it out and evaluate the photos. I'm actually surprised that anyone responded to this thread at all. But if you choose to, I would really like to be diverted from this path that I seem to be heading down. Please, tell me that I'm not seeing what I'm seeing.

I'd really like to know how come the windows in the Lens Crafters store were blown out rather than in. I'd like to know why the cardboard placards just feet away from the bomb blast were intact, not punctured by holes and not blown over.

Seriously, I don't know what to believe anymore. Why did building 7 collapse if it wasn't hit by an airplane? Why did they throw Bin Ladens body overboard? Could it have something to do with the report that he died years earlier from lung problems? Why haven't they shown any footage of the fancy security system video of Adam Lanza? Why did the FBI have to shoot a guy in the process of an interrogation?

I've fallen down a rabbit hole and I haven't hit bottom yet. :huh:

[JMJones0424]

Well no worries, because not only is there not a bottom to the rabbit hole, there isn't even a rabbit hole at all. All of the conspiracy theories you listed suffer from one common flaw. They are perpetuated because armchair investigators suffering heavily from the Dunning-Kruger effect focus in on a few questionable data points and entirely ignore all of the contradictory evidence for their explanations. You may find some details about the marathon bombing questionable, and that's perfectly reasonable. But the existence of these questions is not evidence for an alternative theory. The fact that you can't explain a few details is not evidence of a government conspiracy to stage the event. There were thousands of witnesses, hundreds of injured, and three dead. Lots of damage was done by the bombs. You can't ignore the mountains of evidence that support the consensus view simply because you have a few handfuls of data points that don't make sense to you.

 

So, why didn't a guy whose legs had been blown off bleed out? Because his legs weren't blown off. Why did people act differently then you'd expect them to act? Because your expectations of how people react are unrealistic. What about the glass and cardboard? Blast waves do funny things when constricted by obstacles. The bottom line is that even if all of these questions forever remain unanswered to your satisfaction, they are not evidence that the bombings were staged.

 

The same could be said for the other conspiracy theories you list.

 

Ultimately, rather than seeking support for what to believe, I think you'd be far better off if you choose to believe nothing. Instead, consider all the evidence available, and consider the source and evidence on which explanations are made.

[Knothead]

 

 

So, why didn't a guy whose legs had been blown off bleed out? Because his legs weren't blown off.

 

 

Well, see theres's the problem. The "official" conspiracy theory is that his legs were indeed blown off. That's what was plastered all over the main stream news.

The other theory is that he was a crisis actor. Already an amputee. Based on the photographic evidence that I've seen. That makes the most sense.

But thanks for your post anyway.