The Cole Siphon

[Guest Aemilius]

Thanks CraigD.... I see more problems with your post, I'll have a response later.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Aemilius

[C1ay]

....I think I've got C1ay following me around "neg repping" my posts, he must be all riled up about something I said.... At least I got a steak and a six pack out of it!

 

It's really this simple. The rules here require you to back up any assertions with actual science and you've yet to do that. On top of that you ignore the science and math that is presented and claim that it is flawed without supporting those claims either. Now I'm following simply for pure amusement.

[Guest Aemilius]

C1ay "It's really this simple. The rules here require you to back up any assertions with actual science and you've yet to do that."

 

Did you even read the Wikipedia page I linked to describing the nature of a thought experiment? I'm just incredulous that, after having read that, you could still be going on about the rules.

 

C1ay "On top of that you ignore the science and math that is presented and claim that it is flawed without supporting those claims either.

 

Got a quote? Anything? Why no quotes taking issue with some particular thing I've said or disagreed with, or even one marked up diagram? If I've committed all these inexcusable transgressions, why has no one else mentioned it besides you? They've certainly never hesitated before! Maybe they realize it's a thought experiment.

 

C1ay "Now I'm following simply for pure amusement."

 

Good! I always like to believe that what I have to say has some redeeming value, and go ahead and keep "neg repping" my posts too.... from what I've seen so far they're severely overrated. I mean, just look at poor 491371360's Profile. A negative reputation of -2558 without even making one post!

 

Listen man, I wasn't going to bring this up, but you're pushing....

 

I was looking forward to your opinion from the perspective of a "Hydraulic Systems Specialist" based on what you said over here....

C1ay "I've spent over 30 years as a hydraulic systems specialist using math to design and diagnose hydraulic systems and I know for a fact...."

....but that doesn't even remotely resemble your profile information or what you said to me there....

 

C1ay "Actually I was a Lab Tech/Programmer but now I've gone back to machine work. I was a lab tech doing mechanical systems quality control and they utilized my programming skills to write new QC software for the lab since it's part of my skillset. I'm self taught at both. I do hold an associates degree in pneudraulic systems and my primary focus is servicing heavy equipment...."

 

....I'm sure there's a perfectly logical reason for that and I'm not trying to insult you or anything (I know you can ban me, actually I'm surprised I lasted this long), but the whole anonymity thing on the web has me wondering now who I'm really talking to.... Is this person credible? That thought never crosses my mind when I'm dealing with CraigD.[/b]

 

Emile Cole Ph.D

(Proud hiskool. Dropout)

Edited August 1, 2013 by Aemilius

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

If I've committed all these inexcusable transgressions, why has no one else mentioned it besides you? They've certainly never hesitated before! Maybe they realize it's a thought experiment.

Nah, just recognize the pattern....Same ol' crap, new thread. Realizing that nothing will be done until an administrator or enough mods get tired of it we've simply decided it's not worth the aggravation of dealing with you...besides it's rather amusing to watch....Hypo's own version of "The Devils Ride". Besides, some of us have an extremely limited number of Neg's we can give...which is BS, but I guess it is figured they will be abused less if you can only issue a very finite number of them.

 

I mean, just look at poor 491371360's Profile. A negative reputation of -2558 without even making one post!

Either a spammer or posts so offensive that they and likely the threads they were in were deleted. Deleted posts are removed from the member's post count. The negative rep is not.

Edited July 19, 2013 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

[Guest Aemilius]

DFINITLYDISTRUBD "Nah, just recognize the pattern....Same ol' crap, new thread. Realizing that nothing will be done until an administrator or enough mods get tired of it we've simply decided it's not worth the aggravation of dealing with you...besides it's rather amusing to watch....Hypo's own version of 'The Devils Ride'.

 

More like "The Devils Advocate". I'm talking to an Administrator/Moderator right now and if he didn't want to discuss it anymore all he'd have to do is say "I don't want this to be discusssed anymore" and that would be the end of the thread. Neither C1ay or CraigD has said that yet.... So, like, what's your point?

 

By the way.... How's that permanent magnet motor coming along?

Edited July 19, 2013 by Aemilius

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

If I've committed all these inexcusable transgressions, why has no one else mentioned it besides you? They've certainly never hesitated before! Maybe they realize it's a thought experiment.

So, like, what's your point?

 

What's my point? Don't assume that just because we are not/have not been bothering with you that we have no issues with your ongoing behavior and refusal to comply with Hypo's rules.

 

By the way.... How's that permanent magnet motor coming along?

Sidelined, busily developing custom Suzuki VL800 exhaust, drive and turbo parts that are high demand with ZERO supply.

Since nobody else seems to want to produce them, i'll gladly tool up and do so...none of the parts are overly expensive or difficult to make, but this particular bike is considered a beginner's bike or to cheap to offer vehicle specific aftermarket parts for and not worth serious customization (despite the fact there are dozens of sites dedicated to them, and countless owners on those sites that very heavily customize them and are very diligently seeking said parts).

[Guest Aemilius]

This is a thought experiment.... I say no rules have been broken. You're not saying anything about the topic so I'm not saying anything to you.... If you don't like it don't read it, or report it.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Aemilius

[Turtle]

This is a thought experiment.... I say no rules have been broken. You're not saying anything about the topic so I'm not saying anything to you.... If you don't like it don't read it, or report it.

 

Thought experiment, poo.:lol: You're just using that as an excuse for yet another of your perpetual motion schemes like the Emile powered mechanism. And while you're dressing down Double D for off topic, what about this taunt from you?

 

Hah! How you doing C1ay? When I saw you were viewing the thread I bet my brother (he's following all this) $25.00 you wouldn't write a word and that you'd give my post a "negative reputation" mark. As soon as we shook hands, I refreshed the page and there it was! I'll buy a nice big steak and a six pack tonight.... Thanks man!

 

 

I bet my sisters $75 that you don't even have a brother.

 

 

So you have yet to address my on-topic experimental thoughts on your perpetual syphon in post #24. Can you hear me now?

[Guest Aemilius]

Hey CraigD....

 

CraigD "As I and wikipedia have noted before (I used the phrase 'terribly difficult', wikipedia the more understated 'non-trivial'), modeling magnetic fields for a give arrangement of permanent magnets and material materials such as your latest magnet + 'magnetic shield' is … err … terribly difficult, so I won’t try to do that...."

 

No problem, I have the computer simulation/model images clearly showing the interaction between....

 

The Magnetic Field....

 

 

....and the Magnetic Shield.

 

 

CraigD "Instead, let’s try a RAA proof. Let’s assume (falsely, to the best of my understanding – which is that, despite requiring more complicated equations, magnets in magnetic fields obey the same energy laws as charged bodies in electrostatic fields) that there is a way to just “turn off” the magnetic field in a desired volume of space, without affecting it outside of that volume, and that it looks like your sketch, Aemilius."

 

I hope we can agree that the computer simulation/model above accurately reflects the conditions that will be existing as a result of the interaction of the Magnetic Field and the Magnetic Shield, and that it's a rebuttal to that argument.

 

CraigD "We could then make a perpetual motion machine of the first kind simply by putting this magnet-and-shield device on a closed loop of water...."

 

(I like your loop for the analysis)

 

Because the net force on the water on one side of the device is greater than on the other, water should flow...."

 

You beat me to it, that's the exact image I was talking about that "popped up". I'm just looking at those diagrams and there's absolutely nothing ambiguous about them. In other words the diagrams accurately reflect the condition the system would realistically be in.

 

CraigD "Unlike the latest sketch of the Cole siphon, where the magnet’s PPM-creating effect is indirect, it’s obvious in this PPM that the magnet device is adding energy to the system...."

 

How can the magnet be obviously adding energy to the system? The magnet absolutely cannot add energy to the system.... we settled that. But it can exert a force on/affect the behaviour of objects/fluids in the region, so the problem is that if movement is expected to occur (as it appears it should be from the diagram) because of the clearly larger volume of fluid exposed to the magnetic field on one side in comparison to the smaller volume of fluid exposed to the magnetic field on the other side.... Wouldn't any movement (if it did occur) have to then be attributed to some property of the fluid instead of the magnet, since we know the magnet can't add any energy to the system?

 

CraigD "PS: I need to correct a mistake in a previous post...."

 

Noted, and like I said if at any time an Administrator/Moderator says it's over, I'll abide by that.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Aemilius

[Guest Aemilius]

Hey Turtle (sorry I missed your post)....

 

Turtle "You're just using that as an excuse for yet another of your perpetual motion schemes

 

Guilty as charged, I actually have it hooked up to a bicycle powered water pump.... How did you see through my scheme? Did you hear the chain rattling?

 

Turtle "I believe the fluid may impart a torque on the magnet which will of necessity generate heat, which is a loss. I'm presuming here that force is as force does and that if a magnet is acting on a diamagnet, then the diamagnet is acting on the magnet in an opposite & equal fashion. I find only a description of the torque on a magnet by another magnetic field and extrapolating that to diamagnetism?"

 

The diamagnetism we're talking about is really weak, so if this thing worked at all the fluid (I'm guessing) would be moving so slowly that any force of torque it exerted on the magnet in passing would likely be immeasurably small.... same for any friction.

 

Turtle "I also think that the specific shape of the reservoir dimple may affect any actual operation of the theoretical siphon, and it's certainly an interesting theoretical question. Consider that any depression must match the shape of a ring magnet's field. Perhaps the dimple is too deep and not wide enough to clear an air gap?"

 

We seem to have left the "Air Gap" behind with the introduction of CraigD's superior "Loop" configuration.... Or not?

Edited July 21, 2013 by Aemilius

[Turtle]

Hey Turtle (sorry I missed your post)....

 

You're just using that as an excuse for yet another of your perpetual motion schemes.

 

Guilty as charged, I actually have it hooked up to a bicycle powered water pump.... How did you see through my scheme? Did you hear the chain rattling?

 

Now see, you are misrepresenting the facts. We all know perfectly well the Cole Mechanism is Emile driven because it is you using your fingers to operate the lever as easily as one moves a pencil on its point.

 

 

As an aside, please learn to use the Quote & Multi-quote functions of the Editor. Not graduating high school may be the reason, but it is no excuse. Using the Quote function automatically links the quote to the original source so readers can easily find quoted material and read it in context. Your method, not.

 

 

I believe the fluid may impart a torque on the magnet which will of necessity generate heat, which is a loss. I'm presuming here that force is as force does and that if a magnet is acting on a diamagnet, then the diamagnet is acting on the magnet in an opposite & equal fashion. I find only a description of the torque on a magnet by another magnetic field and extrapolating that to diamagnetism?

 

The diamagnetism we're talking about is really weak, so if this thing worked at all the fluid (I'm guessing) would be moving so slowly that any torque it any exerted on the magnet in passing would likely be immeasurably small.... same for any friction.

 

No, it's not immeasurably small, because it can be measured. You claimed the system had no losses, I proposed -and you appear to accept- specific losses, therefore you were mistaken in your claim to begin with. :shrug:

 

I also think that the specific shape of the reservoir dimple may affect any actual operation of the theoretical siphon, and it's certainly an interesting theoretical question. Consider that any depression must match the shape of a ring magnet's field. Perhaps the dimple is too deep and not wide enough to clear an air gap?

 

We seem to have left the "Air Gap" behind with the introduction of CraigD's superior "Loop" configuration.... Or not?

 

Perhaps. Nevertheless, I think the shape of the dimple is an interesting question on its own. Maybe one could observe it using the reflection setup(s) described at your link back in post#66.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Turtle

[Guest Aemilius]

Turtle "As an aside, please learn to use the Quote & Multi-quote functions of the Editor. Not graduating high school may be the reason, but it is no excuse. Using the Quote function automatically links the quote to the original source so readers can easily find quoted material and read it in context. Your method, not."

 

That feature doesn't work on this computer for some reason.... I'll include links from now on though.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Aemilius

[Turtle]

Turtle "As an aside, please learn to use the Quote & Multi-quote functions of the Editor. Not graduating high school may be the reason, but it is no excuse. Using the Quote function automatically links the quote to the original source so readers can easily find quoted material and read it in context. Your method, not."

 

That feature doesn't work on this computer for some reason.... I'll include links from now on though.

 

I take it you mean Multiquote doesn't work? If so, here's how to get the same effect. :computerkeys:

 

Note: I said "Quote' function, but it is -of course- the Reply button you click to quote a post.

 

So, go to the first post you want to quote, click Reply, copy the post and paste it to Notepad, and then hit your Back button. Now do the same for each post you want to quote. When you have everything, click the regular Reply button and paste everything in. Keep the

tag intact and edit the quoted text as you need. If you break up a single quote into individual replys, just copy the original

tag and paste it in. When an original

tag from a reply is displayed in a post, the little blue arrow left of the displayed name is a link to the post. Voila!

 

I see that you again neglected to acknowledge your original mistake. Care to do that?

 

I see also that you made no comment on my speculation about observing the shape of the dimple via reflection. So, what about that? What does your mind experimenting think about the dimple being wavy bottomed in sync with the field lines as I proposed in post #24? Moreover would a reflection show it?

 

Air gap or no, a dimple is as a dimple does. On that note, I don't recall anyone pointing out that making a dimple raises the water level in the reservoir.

 

[Another side note Emile: You have misspelled reservoir in your diagrams.]

[Guest Aemilius]

I'm sorry Turtle, right now I'm really only interested in what CraigD has to say. Please feel free though to continue posting and discussing the issues you've raised with other members that share your concerns.

[Turtle]

I'm sorry Turtle, right now I'm really only interested in what CraigD has to say. Please feel free though to continue posting and discussing the issues you've raised with other members that share your concerns.

 

As if it's up to you when, where, or to whom I reply. Moreover, it's really not your purview -according to the rules- to not answer objections/questions no matter how politely you try to weasel out. You know I won't leave it be, so just suck it up and answer...please.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

The first working prototype installed on my bud's bike 46bhp at the rear wheel pre-turbo, 87bhp dyno'd at the rear wheel post....added benefit...it looks friggen wicked....the drawback, that's about five grand in parts on a three thousand dollar bike. IMHO, time and money better spent than dinking around with magnet motors.

 

Just an update since you asked how the magmotor was going....figured I'd show what was so important that i'd neglect it. What can I say give a biker money and they'll blow it on a bike every time.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Now the real fun begins, figuring out how to get the cost down.

Edited July 20, 2013 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD