Significant Ufo Sighting, 1964

[Moontanman]

One of the best UFO sightings I know of, no kites here...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonnie_Zamora_incident

 

Astronomer J. Allen Hynek (Blue Book's consultant) arrived in Socorro on Tuesday, April 28. He met with Zamora and Chavez, and interviewed them about the encounter. Hynek and Air Force Major Hector Quintanilla initially thought the sighting might be explained as a test of a Lunar Excursion Module, though after some investigation, Hynek determined that this could be definitely ruled out as an explanation for what Zamora saw. (Druffel, 213) In a memorandum Hynek wrote[18] that "Zamora & Chavez were very anti-AF [Air Force]". The Air Force was suggesting that the affair was a hoax, but Zamora was "pretty sore at being regarded as a romancer" and it took over half an hour for Hynek to "thaw him out" and hear the account from the only eyewitness.

Hynek also wrote[18] that "The AF is in a spot over Socorro:" they were also suggesting that the encounter could be attributed to Zamora having seen an unidentified military craft, though no craft could be matched to Zamora's report. Hynek agreed with many others that this explanation "won't go down" as plausible.

Hynek further wrote[18] "I think this case may be the 'Rosetta Stone' ... There's never been a strong case with so unimpeachable a witness." Also noting his growing frustration with Blue Book, Hynek wrote, "The AF doesn't know what science is."

 

If anyone wants to get a real idea of what a good ufo sighting is and as is pointed out in the link, another one was seen a few hundred miles away.

[Turtle]

One of the best UFO sightings I know of, no kites here...

 

http://en.wikipedia....Zamora_incident

 

 

 

If anyone wants to get a real idea of what a good ufo sighting is and as is pointed out in the link, another one was seen a few hundred miles away.

 

You called a kite expert?

 

Quoting from your article:

...In August 2012, an internet article surfaced claiming the incident was a hoax committed by a group of students from New Mexico Tech, using a sky lantern-like device and "pyrotechnic whistles."

 

Recall from the thread where you learned of my expertise an anecdote I related.

I met an old timer kiter who told me about he and his friends putting a kerosine lantern in their box kite and towing it down rural roads with their Model T. No power lines back then and no wind required. Had folks talkin' fo shizzle. :o

 

That was in the 20's or 30's.The 1964 students towed their kite-with-rockets-and noise-makers with that car the Sheriff first saw. That's where the 2 people went and that's what made the dust. The speed of retreat is way over estimated, at the least because no one reported a sonic boom.

 

Gotta go on a trike ride now; it's blazing hot here!! :smilingsun:

[Moontanman]

So, an object first seen as looking like a car upended on it's radiator suddenly took off towing a kit? I would say difficult for a car to do from that position...

 

Pelicanism...

 

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/pelicanism1897/

 

Scottish debunker James Easton has argued that [Kenneth] Arnold’s objects [seen June 24, 1947] were merely pelicans — leading one wag to coin the term “pelicanist” to characterize one who proposes hard-to-believe solutions to puzzling UFO sightings.

[Turtle]

So, an object first seen as looking like a car upended on it's radiator suddenly took off towing a kit? I would say difficult for a car to do from that position...

 

Pelicanism...

 

http://www.cryptomun...pelicanism1897/

 

 

 

 

No; the "O-shaped" thing was the kite. From the Sheriff's changing position, the car disappeared behind the kite. See some of Alexander Bell's cellulal ring kites. Standing on edge and viewed from an angle they would -and do- appear as an oval. [image circa ~1920] Perfect project for science students!!

 

 

Existential claim...

Edited June 30, 2013 by Turtle

[Aethelwulf]

One of the best UFO sightings I know of, no kites here...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonnie_Zamora_incident

 

 

 

If anyone wants to get a real idea of what a good ufo sighting is and as is pointed out in the link, another one was seen a few hundred miles away.

 

 

It's rare for someone to quote a case I am unfamiliar with... I'll tell you what I think when I've read it.

[Aethelwulf]

Well it's interesting... I believe the event raises more questions than answers however. But still a curious case to consider.

[Moontanman]

No; the "O-shaped" thing was the kite. From the Sheriff's changing position, the car disappeared behind the kite. See some of Alexander Bell's cellulal ring kites. Standing on edge and viewed from an angle they would -and do- appear as an oval. [image circa ~1920] Perfect project for science students!!

 

 

Existential claim...

 

So even though the kite hypothesis was suggested back then and discounted you would rather rely on a claim made 50 years after the fact?

[Turtle]

So even though the kite hypothesis was suggested back then and discounted you would rather rely on a claim made 50 years after the fact?

 

Discounted by whom? More supposed kite experts like Nick Pope? Hynek ever fly a big kite? If I can demonstrate by evidence how it could be a kite, then contrary opinions are irrelevant.

 

I don't suppose you have looked at the site with Google Earth®, have you? No matter as I have. In the screen shot below I put a red bullseye at the coordinates given at the top of the Wiki article you linked to. I also marked out a 6 mile red line from Box Canyon back toward town. Inasmuch as police are giving the evidence, I find the lack of road names vexing if not sloppy. Chasing a speeder on what road going what direction? I see none of that in your link. Perhaps you have something better in reserve?

 

Have you ever considered that it's aliens flying the kites? :omg: Let's dance it out!! :alien_dance:

[Moontanman]

Discounted by whom? More supposed kite experts like Nick Pope? Hynek ever fly a big kite? If I can demonstrate by evidence how it could be a kite, then contrary opinions are irrelevant.

 

I don't suppose you have looked at the site with Google Earth®, have you? No matter as I have. In the screen shot below I put a red bullseye at the coordinates given at the top of the Wiki article you linked to. I also marked out a 6 mile red line from Box Canyon back toward town. Inasmuch as police are giving the evidence, I find the lack of road names vexing if not sloppy. Chasing a speeder on what road going what direction? I see none of that in your link. Perhaps you have something better in reserve?

 

Have you ever considered that it's aliens flying the kites? :omg: Let's dance it out!! :alien_dance:

 

Zamora saw the object in flight and saw it before he saw it landed and saw it take off again. I think this negates a kite hoax quite well, as does the fused sand at the take off Site.

 

So you decided to edit out the "Black Knight" links?

 

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4365

[Turtle]

Discounted by whom? More supposed kite experts like Nick Pope? Hynek ever fly a big kite? If I can demonstrate by evidence how it could be a kite, then contrary opinions are irrelevant.

 

I don't suppose you have looked at the site with Google Earth®, have you? No matter as I have. In the screen shot below I put a red bullseye at the coordinates given at the top of the Wiki article you linked to. I also marked out a 6 mile red line from Box Canyon back toward town. Inasmuch as police are giving the evidence, I find the lack of road names vexing if not sloppy. Chasing a speeder on what road going what direction? I see none of that in your link. Perhaps you have something better in reserve?

Have you ever considered that it's aliens flying the kites? :omg: Let's dance it out!! :alien_dance:

 

Zamora saw the object in flight and saw it before he saw it landed and saw it take off again. I think this negates a kite hoax quite well, as does the fused sand at the take off Site.

 

So you decided to edit out the "Black Knight" links?

 

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4365

 

 

Black Knight links? I have no idea what you mean there. I don't see anything at your new link pertaining to Zamora incident either, so please direct me. :shrug:

 

 

Otherwise you didn't answer my objections or questions. I want you to tell me exactly on the map I gave where Zamora was chasing a car, where is the hill he needed 3 tries to get up, and where was he when he dropped his glasses and ran away. Aren't you interested in establishing the "facts" you give in support of, well....presumably aliens, right?

 

A rocket-launched kite towed by a vehicle after launch covers your complaints. The apparent rocket may also have been just for show as well as powering the roarer. Think hot-air balloon nozzle inverted with an attached tuned noise-maker as in air-raid sirens.

 

There is an old adage among experienced kite-flyers that says "you can fly a barn door if you bridle it right". It is literally true.

 

British & US military built & issued kites launched from a flare gun. Rocket-launched Kites

 

 

 

Here's a blast from the past showing that a rocket launched kite is an old idea.

 

On the day of the flight, Wan-Hu sat in the chair and gave the command to light the rockets. Forty-seven assistants, each armed with torches, rushed forward to light the rockets. In a moment, there was a tremendous roar accompanied by billowing clouds of smoke. When the smoke cleared, Wan-Hu and his flying chair were gone. No one knows for sure what happened to Wan-Hu, but it is probable that the event really did take place. Fire-arrows are still as apt to explode as to fly!

source Edited June 30, 2013 by Turtle

[Moontanman]

Black Knight links? I have no idea what you mean there. I don't see anything at your new link pertaining to Zamora incident either, so please direct me. :shrug:

 

 

Otherwise you didn't answer my objections or questions. I want you to tell me exactly on the map I gave where Zamora was chasing a car, where is the hill he needed 3 tries to get up, and where was he when he dropped his glasses and ran away. Aren't you interested in establishing the "facts" you give in support of, well....presumably aliens, right?

 

A rocket-launched kite towed by a vehicle after launch covers your complaints. The apparent rocket may also have been just for show as well as powering the roarer. Think hot-air balloon nozzle inverted with an attached tuned noise-maker as in air-raid sirens.

 

There is an old adage among experienced kite-flyers that says "you can fly a barn door if you bridle it right". It is literally true.

 

British & US military built & issued kites launched from a flare gun. Rocket-launched Kites

 

 

 

Here's a blast from the past showing that a rocket launched kite is an old idea.

 

source[/size]

 

 

Sorry turtle, someone else sent me the black night thing, it has been thoroughly debunked and most of it is completely made up.

 

As for road names, in the southwest desert there are lot of roads now that don't have names or blacktop, there were probably lots more back then... I grew up in the mountains of West Virginia and there were more unnamed back roads than named roads. Zamora does indicate the rough nature of the roads when he says it took him three tires to drive to the top of the hill to investigate what he saw flying and losing altitude. He then saw it take off again, it was seen by other people both in the landing and subsequent take off flight.

[Turtle]

Sorry turtle, someone else sent me the black night thing, it has been thoroughly debunked and most of it is completely made up.

 

Roger. I read your whole link.

 

As for road names, in the southwest desert there are lot of roads now that don't have names or blacktop, there were probably lots more back then... I grew up in the mountains of West Virginia and there were more unnamed back roads than named roads. Zamora does indicate the rough nature of the roads when he says it took him three tires to drive to the top of the hill to investigate what he saw flying and losing altitude. He then saw it take off again, it was seen by other people both in the landing and subsequent take off flight.

 

 

What a complete copout!! Lame, lame, lame. You give this event as a 'Rosetta Stone' of UFO's and yet you can give no details? Hell man, this was a cop and the Air Force investigating [supposedly] and no one recorded the details? Your Wiki article says

As of 2009, the landing site reportedly remains much as it was in 1964.

 

 

Well, let's have a look at it on Google Earth today then!!! What's the problem?? I know you are at the mercy of what you read and I'm as much mocking what we read as what you make of it. So if you know of a more complete or detailed report, trot it out.

 

I notice you didn't bother to mention my most recent rocket kite facts. Care to comment on your not commenting? Inquiring minds want to know. :QuestionM Is that implant buzzing again? I'm ribbing you in good humor of course because that's what you invited me here to do when of 2 sentences in the Opening Post you specifically mentioned kites being impossible. Now get cracking on those facts !

[Moontanman]

So because old back roads weren't named at the time you discount the entire sighting? Even though it was thoroughly investigated by the USAF and no reasonable explanation was ever given?

 

Other than road names what are you looking for? I really did grow up in a place where most of the roads and logging trails were unnamed but remained in service.

 

I can find my old house on google and there are still roads not named or that are named now but weren't anything but old wagon trails back then.

[Moontanman]

BTW, I think your rocket kite assertion is Pelicanism... I didn't not give it the name of the rosetta stone of ufos Dr. Allen Hynek did that. read the entire page carefully turtle, while I can't discount a giant rocket powered kite but in 1964 it seems unlikely and the story of the kite has to be shoehorned quite badly to fit the observed facts of the matter.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Moontanman

[Turtle]

So because old back roads weren't named at the time you discount the entire sighting? Even though it was thoroughly investigated by the USAF and no reasonable explanation was ever given?

 

Other than road names what are you looking for? I really did grow up in a place where most of the roads and logging trails were unnamed but remained in service.

 

I can find my old house on google and there are still roads not named or that are named now but weren't anything but old wagon trails back then.

 

 

You didn't even try to find a name, did you? :doh: Nice work. I however did find some road names and I will mark up the map with them shortly.

 

 

Again you avoid my rocket kite evidence. How many times must I ask you to comment?

 

Here's what I found & where.

 

source

 

About 5:45 P.M. 4/24/64 while in Socorro 2 Police Car (64 Pontiac white) started to chase a car due south from west side of Court House. Car was apparently speeding, and was about 3 blocks in front.

 

At point on Old Rodeo Street (extension of Park St. south) near George Morillo residence (about 1/8 mile south of Spring Street, the _____ chased car was going straight ahead toward rodeo grounds. Car chased was a new black Chevrolet (it might have been _____ boy about seventeen). Chased car still about three blocks ahead. _____ alone.`

 

At this time heard a roar and saw a flame in the sky to southwest some distance away--possibly a 1/2 mile or a mile. Came to mind that a dynamite shack in that area had blown up, decided to leave chased car go. ...

 

Found Courthouse, Spring St., and Fairground Road. Still looking for rodeo/fair ground. Tell me again how you are not going to help at all with this while ignoring my kite expertise? :P

Edited July 1, 2013 by Turtle

[Turtle]

BTW, I think your rocket kite assertion is Pelicanism... I didn't not give it the name of the rosetta stone of ufos Dr. Allen Hynek did that. read the entire page carefully turtle, while I can't discount a giant rocket powered kite but in 1964 it seems unlikely and the story of the kite has to be shoehorned quite badly to fit the observed facts of the matter.

 

That's better. You can't discount my evidence. Therefore you must accept it as possible, therefore your original claim is mistaken. I am right & you are wrong. Imagine that!! :lol:

 

I have read the Wiki page at least 3 times and this newest link a couple. It's highly likely that Hynek is a poser.

[Turtle]

Also linked to from Wiki, the hoax exposed. Socorro UFO Hoax Exposed!

 

...Etcorn was a noted psychologist. He said that the psychology of these Techies was such that they liked to fool those who they thought were foolish.

 

We discussed how the pranksters may have incorporated 1) a large helium balloon resting on the desert floor to appear "landed" and then released up into the air on cue. Perhaps it was a reflective white colored balloon or a balloon fitted over with glossy-white craft paper- with added "landing struts" and a red insignia drawn on its side 2) "roaring" or "whining" explosives, pyrotechnics, model rockets, thrown flares or a flame device 3) smaller students dressed in white lab coats acting as the "aliens" and 4) the digging out of "landing depressions" and burning of nearby bushes. Soil or rock in the area may have been "salted" with silicon or trinitite from the school’s Geology Lab. And perhaps it was intentional that Zamora was led to the landed craft by a speeding car. One of the students may have purposely engaged Lonnie in a car chase to lure him to where the hoax was staged. Zamora reports that he "broke the chase" to investigate the UFO- just as the students knew that he would. ...