Magnetically Enabled Continuous Circulation Of Diamagnetic Fluid

July 24, 2013

Magnetically Enabled Continuous Circulation Of Diamagnetic Fluid

By Emile Cole

1. An iron plate can be used to effectively "turn off" a magnetic field in a region of space, even a region of space very close to the pole of a magnet.

Computer Model by Prof. Rick Hoadley, M. Eng. (Electrical Engineering), B.S. (Engineering)

2. A magnetic field can exert a repulsive force of pressure on a diamagnetic fluid.

3. The repulsive force of pressure a magnetic field can exert on a diamagnetic fluid has direction (going away from the magnetic field).

4. In a system consisting of a tube in the form of a circle with a magnet installed around it, the repulsive force of pressure exerted by the magnetic field on the diamagnetic fluid within the tube immediately to the left and right of the magnet will be opposite in direction and equal in magnitude.

5. The full repulsive force of pressure exerted by the magnetic field on equal volumes of diamagnetic fluid within the tube will cause regions of reduced fluid pressure to exist immediately to the left and right of the magnet, and will increase fluid pressure in the tube as a whole.

6. The introduction of a magnetic shield will not change the opposite directions of repulsive force of pressure exerted by the magnetic field on the diamagnetic fluid within the tube immediately to the left and right of the magnet. What will change is that the full repulsive force of pressure the magnetic field exerts on the larger volume of diamagnetic fluid on the left will be greater than the partial repulsive force of pressure it exerts on a smaller volume of diamagnetic fluid on the right, due to the presence of the shield.

7. The full repulsive force of pressure exerted by the magnetic field on the larger volume of diamagnetic fluid within the tube on the left will cause a region of reduced fluid pressure to exist there that's lower than in the region of reduced fluid pressure on the right caused by the partial repulsive force of pressure being exerted by the magnetic field on a smaller volume of diamagnetic fluid, due to the presence of the shield.

8. When a potential difference in pressure exists between two points in a body of fluid, the fluid will move under force of fluid pressure from the region of higher pressure to the region of lower pressure. So the magnet isn't what will power the system, it can't....

A potential difference in fluid pressure is what will power the system.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Aemilius

July 24, 2013

Hey CraigD....

CraigD "Correctly read, the field diagrams before and after the addition of a magnetic shield don’t indicate that moving a permanent magnet or a diamagnetic material through holes in the shield and magnet shown in diagram 2 from A to B require less work than the same movement through holes in the magnet with no shield shown in diagram 1. Less work is required to move from A to X in diagram 2 than in diagram 1, but more work to move from X to B."

Yes, I see your point. There's a very simple solution to that problem though which has already been implemented (surprised you didn't notice) in the most recent diagrams. Placing the shield right at the surface of the magnet's pole means the magnetic field strength is dramatically reduced to almost zero in that region, or as Rick Hoadley put it "The field on the other side of the plate is almost nil." This means that the work required to move the fluid toward a region of space right next to the magnet's pole, from A to B, is roughly the same as if the magnet wasn't there.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Aemilius

July 25, 2013

Hey CraigD....

I did a little digging. The magnetic field simulater Rick Hoadley used is the Ansoft Maxwell 2D Field Simulation program. Just thought you'd like to know.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Aemilius

C1ay · July 28, 2013

Magnetically Enabled Continuous Circulation Of Diamagnetic Fluid

By Emile Cole

1. An iron plate can be used to effectively "turn off" a magnetic field in a region of space, even a region of space very close to the pole of a magnet.

Computer Model by Prof. Rick Hoadley, M. Eng. (Electrical Engineering), B.S. (Engineering)

Question:

You acknowledge this image depicts a region in space where the magnetic field is reduced by a magnetic shield while ignoring the fact the magnetic shield also creates a region of space between the shield and the center line of the magnet where the field opposing the direction of asserted flow is concentrated. How does the diamagnetic fluid overcome this concentrated repulsive force in the very region of space where you wish to assert the flow is continuous?

July 28, 2013

C1ay "Question:

You acknowledge this image depicts a region in space where the magnetic field is reduced by a magnetic shield while ignoring the fact the magnetic shield also creates a region of space between the shield and the center line of the magnet where the field opposing the direction of asserted flow is concentrated."

I'm not ignoring anything, but I think you are. The magnetic field isn't "concentrated " anywhere but within the magnetic shield material that provides an easier path for the magnetic lines of force to get from one pole to the other. Get your "facts" straight.

C1ay "How does the diamagnetic fluid overcome this concentrated repulsive force in the very region of space where you wish to assert the flow is continuous?"

The fluid fillng the tube will move in either direction through the bore of the physical magnet as if it wasn't even there. The repulsive force of pressure the diamagnetic fluid encounters as it enters the bore of the magnet on the right is the same strength as the equal and opposite repulsive force of pressure it simultaneously encounters as it exits the bore of the magnet on the left (shield or no shield). Since the repulsive force of pressure exerted by the magnetic field on the diamagnetic fluid has direction, the net gain in force in either direction on the volume of fluid within the bore of the physical magnet itself is zero at any given time.

That being the case, only the difference in field strength beyond the bore to either side of the magnet is considered.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Aemilius

C1ay · July 28, 2013

I'm not ignoring anything, but I think you are. The magnetic field isn't "concentrated " anywhere but within the magnetic shield material that provides an easier path for the magnetic lines of force to get from one pole to the other. Get your "facts" straight.

I do have my facts straight. The lines of flux leaving the magnet are the same in both directions. Fluid passing the magnetic shield and entering the throat of the magnet will encounter an equal and opposite force of flux than that you assert pushes the fluid. Your shield doesn't block any flux lines between the center line of the magnet and the shield itself. In that region of space the flux is equal and opposite the other pole of the magnet. See the boxed in region in the attachment.

July 29, 2013

C1ay "I do have my facts straight. The lines of flux leaving the magnet are the same in both directions."

Do you mean the polarity of the magnetic lines of force leaving the magnet are the same in both directions? If you do, when it comes to diamagnetism, polarity is a non-issue except in the sense that the diamagnetic fluid will develop a polarity that opposes a magnetic field it's exposed to. If you didn't mean polarity then.... ???

C1ay "Fluid passing the magnetic shield and entering the throat of the magnet will encounter an equal and opposite force of flux than that you assert pushes the fluid. Your shield doesn't block any flux lines between the center line of the magnet and the shield itself. In that region of space the flux is equal and opposite the other pole of the magnet. See the boxed in region in the attachment."

Look at a horseshoe magnet. It's the lines of force that pass through an intervening space in diagram A outside the magnet that can interact with other objects in the vicinity. When the magnetic circuit is closed by placing a keeper on it in diagram B there's very little external evidence of any magnetism because almost all the magnetic lines of force are confined within the material (the magnet and keeper). In diagram B, with almost all the magnetic lines of force confined within the material, the magnet won't interact much with other objects in the vicinity.

In the same sense as the horseshoe magnet, all the lines of force (white rectangle) that you're suggesting will resist fluid entering the bore are actually confined within the material making up the magnet at that location.... Magnetic lines of force have to pass through some intervening space outside the magnet to interact with other objects.

That's why I'm focussed on the two regions of space to the right and left of the magnet. Those are the regions where magnetic lines of force are not confined within the material and can interact with other objects in the vicinity after passing through an intervening space outside the magnet....

Edited July 29, 2013 by Aemilius

C1ay · July 30, 2013

You seem to have the mistaken idea that your magnetic shield somehow reduces the overall magnitude of the magnetic field of your magnet. It does not, it simply keeps that field from permeating a region of space beyond the shield but it does not reduce the strength of that field. The total magnitude of the magnetic field of the magnet is still there but one pole is just concentrated in the space in front of the shield, in the throat of your hollow magnet. Any fluid exposed to a hole in that shield still has the full repulsive force of that end of the magnet as it passes through the magnetic shield so your shield doesn't create the imbalance you think it does on the diamagnetic fluid.

CraigD · July 30, 2013

I don’t need images made with a magnet simulator program, but the program itself. I quickly found some limited available online, like this Java-based one from CU-Boulder, and lots of references to more feature-rich ones. I couldn’t find any mention by Rick Hoadley on his “magnetman” webpages of how he generated the images on which Aemilius appear to have built his, and the animation embedded in this post, but imagine he either used software someone else wrote, or wrote his own.

Well, images effectively convey information, and considering the extraordinarily simple nature of the experiment, I think the simulation provides more than enough of the kind of detail necessary for predicting the prevailing conditions that will exist.

I know you expressed a concern about the accuracy of the animated computer model/simulation I made use of ...

My concern is that you’re making use of still and animated graphics of magnetic field lines produced by a computer model, where what you need are the results, text or graphics, of a model of the motion of a weak magnet (the diamagnetic water, in the thought experiment) near a powerful one.

Magnetic field lines diagrams show the direction that a small, balanced magnet held in place by a frictionless bearing through its middle would point for an arbitrary collection of points in a magnetic field. They don’t show the magnitude of force on a given small magnet at any point, nor even its direction. That’s not what magnetic field line diagrams are for.

To get the data you need for your thought experiment using a computer model, you need it to be written or instructed to calculate these forces, not magnetic field lines.

I also think Rick Hoadley's credibility is sufficient not to require any step by step reconstruction/verification of his work (but go for it man.... have fun!), and comparing his resume to yours, I can almost guarantee you there's no result you could possibly come up with having just learned/written the needed program that would change my mind about it.... No offence intended, but this guy's been at it a while.

A point of accuracy: the MSOE faculty page for Rick Hoadly linked above is not a resume or CV. It lists only his current department – Electrical Engineering and Computer Science – title – Adjunct Assistant Professor, and most recent education – B.S and M.Eng in Electrical engineering in 1973 and ‘74. A resume or CV is a more complete list of education and work experience.

My most recent education is a B.S. in Math in 1983. I’ve programmed computers since 1975, full-time professionally since 1985. I was an Adjunct Professor from 1983 to 1984, loved and still miss doing it, but made too little money given my expenses at the time, so ended up in the computer business.

I’ve no reason to doubt that Hoadly has a good grasp of basic physics and magnets, and found his magnetman website full or good information and nice graphics.

Aemilius, you used graphics from Hoadly’s website, and mention of his current job and recent education, to support your claim that a magnet and a shield can be used to create a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. However, I found nothing there or elsewhere by Hoadly that supports this claim. Just to opposite, he provides this page titled “Is there free energy in magnets?”, that directly contradicts this claim, concluding

In summary, there is no way to obtain free energy with any kind of combination of wires or magnets or switches (commutators, diodes, etc).

Like my posts in this thread and in The Cole Siphon, this page attempts to explain why neither the siphon, nor the simpler “closed loop” scheme will work.

My experience with people interested in finding PPMs is that conventional explanations like Hoadly’s and the many linked to from his page are often less unconvincing to them, then the results of a computer simulation. So I’m moved to try to write such program. Alas, at present I’m buried in work at work, so it may be a while before I can start, and longer before I can finish.

In the meanwhile, and in the spirit of the evolution of these though experiments from the siphon to the loop, let’s restate it using even simpler pieces:

Since we no longer need fluid for a siphon, or to dimple the surface of a pool using the diamagnetic effects, let’s replace the fluid with a smaller permanent magnet on a rotating arm of some only weakly magnetic material (eg: wood), and the tube passing through the larger magnet and its shield with a with a trench that allows the magnet on its arm to follow the same path as previously discussed. The small magnet is oriented to point like poles at the large one.

The smaller magnet doesn’t lose its field when it is far away from the large one, but otherwise behaves like the diamagnetic fluid. Because the smaller magnet is much stronger than a magnetized fluid, the larger magnet doesn’t need to be extraordinary strong to produce forces much greater than the friction on the rotating arm.

Aemilius, if your assertion that a shielded permanent magnet can do work is correct, and Hoadly’s, mine, and others in these threads that it cannot is wrong, the arrangement will run continuously ‘til it fails from ordinary wear-and-tear, and could be connected to an electric generator to produce free electric power.

Does this seem intuitively right?

July 31, 2013

CraigD "My concern is that you’re making use of still and animated graphics of magnetic field lines produced by a computer model...."

The only still and animated graphics of magnetic field lines produced by a computer model are the three images from Rick Hoadley's site, for illustrative purposes.... I produced all the other diagrams and animations in this thread to schematically illustrate how magnets, shields and diamagnatic fluids have been shown to behave under certain conditions using common knowledge fundamental principles of magnetism. They're not field diagrams either but rather simple force diagrams and animations showing the interactions that can reasonably be expected to occur (force and direction) under a variety of conditions using general common knowledge fundamental principles of magnetism.

CraigD "....where what you need are the results, text or graphics, of a model of the motion of a weak magnet (the diamagnetic water, in the thought experiment) near a powerful one.

To get the data you need for your thought experiment using a computer model, you need it to be written or instructed to calculate these forces, not magnetic field lines."

Breaking news! You don't need a Cray Supercomputer just to reflect on common knowledge fundamental principles of magnetism like those involved here, you know.... like poles repel, unlike poles attract, ferromagnetic's are attracted to either pole, diamagnetic's are repelled by either pole, magnetic fields can be shielded, shaped, etc., etc.... No results, text or graphics from any program or computer model will change any of that.

CraigD "A point of accuracy: the MSOE faculty page for Rick Hoadly linked above is not a resume or CV. It lists only his current department – Electrical Engineering and Computer Science – title – Adjunct Assistant Professor, and most recent education – B.S and M.Eng in Electrical engineering in 1973 and ‘74. A resume or CV is a more complete list of education and work experience."

Really man? You're actually getting into the definition of "resume"? Here's his resume.... http://www.linkedin.com/in/rhoadley

CraigD "Aemilius, you used graphics from Hoadly’s website, and mention of his current job and recent education, to support your claim that a magnet and a shield can be used to create a perpetual motion machine of the first kind."

No, I haven't. Like I said.... There are only three images (two still and the one simulation) that I used from Rick Hoadley's website for illustrative purposes out of all the other diagrams and animations in this thread (about twenty) which were produced by me using common knowledge fundamental principles of magnetism. I only mentioned his background in the face of your (incorrect) rejection of the diagrams I originally produced showing how a magnetic shield works and the (incorrect) statement you made connected with it that a magnetic field can't be blocked, and also because you seemed concerned the simulation might not be a trustworthy representation of what could reasonably be expected to occur when bringing an iron plate near a magnet.

I naturally thought that if you knew his background the simulation would carry more weight with you than my diagram when it comes to showing how a magnetic shield works, and apparently I was right because you had to reverse your earlier (incorrect) position of saying a magnetic shield can't block a magnetic field, to your new (corrected) position of saying that a magnetic shield can block a magnetic field.

CraigD "However, I found nothing there or elsewhere by Hoadly that supports this claim. Just to opposite, he provides this page titled “Is there free energy in magnets?”

You know why you didn't find anything there that I said supports my claim? It's because I never said there was anything there that supports my claim. What are you trying to pull here? If you're going to start insinuating things like that.... You should back it up with a quote or take it back.

Like I said before, only three images from his site out of all the diagrams and animations produced for this thread (about twenty) were used for illustrative purposes.... There's nothing wrong with that. For you to bring up this kind of garbage is really disappointing man!

CraigD "My experience with people interested in finding PPMs is that conventional explanations like Hoadly’s and the many linked to from his page are often less unconvincing to them, then the results of a computer simulation. So I’m moved to try to write such program. Alas, at present I’m buried in work at work, so it may be a while before I can start, and longer before I can finish."

First it's the definition of "resume", next I'm trying to ride Rick Hoadley's coattails by using his work to support my claim, and now.... It's time to talk about your past experience with perpetual motion enthusiasts and your heavy workload? Where is the relevance in any of this?

One can't help but notice how your posts seem to be much more about attacking me than attacking the topic. What's up with that?

CraigD "In the meanwhile, and in the spirit of the evolution of these though experiments from the siphon to the loop, let’s restate it using even simpler pieces:

Since we no longer need fluid for a siphon, or to dimple the surface of a pool using the diamagnetic effects, let’s replace the fluid with a smaller permanent magnet on a rotating arm of some only weakly magnetic material (eg: wood), and the tube passing through the larger magnet and its shield with a with a trench that allows the magnet on its arm to follow the same path as previously discussed. The small magnet is oriented to point like poles at the large one.

The smaller magnet doesn’t lose its field when it is far away from the large one, but otherwise behaves like the diamagnetic fluid. Because the smaller magnet is much stronger than a magnetized fluid, the larger magnet doesn’t need to be extraordinary strong to produce forces much greater than the friction on the rotating arm."

What? Let me get this straight.... you want to again replace this extraordinarily simple arrangement that has only one moving part (the fluid) and is governed by common knowledge fundamental principles of magnetism with a "simpler" arrangement that consists of an imaginary small permanent magnet that behaves like a diamagnetic fluid that doesn't lose it's field when it's far away from the large one? On the end of a rotating wooden stick with a tube passing through the magnet and some sort of trough? Right, got it.... "Assume the sphere is a cow."

CraigD "Aemilius, if your assertion that a shielded permanent magnet can do work is correct, and Hoadly’s, mine, and others in these threads that it cannot is wrong, the arrangement will run continuously ‘til it fails from ordinary wear-and-tear, and could be connected to an electric generator to produce free electric power."

Well that's how it looks, it's not my fault! There's nothing ambiguous about the diagrams or the common knowledge fundamental principles of magnetism used to make them either.

CraigD "Does this seem intuitively right?"

No, it doesn't, and that's why I like it. Unlike other perpetual motion schemes, there's no obvious reason jumping off the screen at me that shows why it shouldn't do what it appears it should do.

Before, you disagreed with me (incorrectly) saying a magnetic field couldn't be blocked, or just "turned off" in a desired volume of space....

CraigD "Let’s assume (falsely, to the best of my understanding – which is that, despite requiring more complicated equations, magnets in magnetic fields obey the same energy laws as charged bodies in electrostatic fields) that there is a way to just “turn off” the magnetic field in a desired volume of space, without affecting it outside of that volume, and that it looks like your sketch, Aemilius."

....because, as you (incorrectly) made clear at the time, if the magnetic field could be blocked or "turned off" in a desired volume of space it would mean that....

CraigD "We could then make a perpetual motion machine of the first kind simply by putting this magnet-and-shield device on a closed loop of water...."

"Because the net force on the water on one side of the device is greater than on the other, water should flow...."

....then later, after I posted the computer simulation I found online clearly illustrating the principle of a magnetic shield, you suddenly reversed yourself on the shield issue and agreed with me (correctly) that in fact a magnetic field can be blocked, or "turned off" in a desired volume of space, saying....

CraigD "I didn’t intend to indicate this. That magnetic fields can be blocked is obvious to anyone with even a low-strength permanent magnet and a couple of steel plates."

So tell me CraigD, looking at it now from the vantage point of your new (corrected) position that a magnetic field can in fact be blocked, or "turned off" in a desired volume of space using a magnetic shield.... Where does the scenario you wrote earlier stand now? Not being able to block the magnetic field was the only obstacle in the scenario you presented above, and now, even according to you.... that obstacle is gone.

What's to prevent the scenario you presented above from playing out just as you described it with your new (corrected) position in mind that a magnetic shield has the ability to block, or "turn off" a magnetic field in a desired volume of space? Do you see something else there that would prevent it? If so.... What?

Edited August 2, 2013 by Aemilius

July 31, 2013

I've explained it to you as best I can C1ay.

I know who CraigD is, but when it comes to you (and I think I've been fairly patient), I'm done.... I think I have a right to know who I'm talking to..... whether that person can ban me or not. Feel free to post whatever you like and keep "neg repping" my posts, but there won't be any response from me to any more of your posts until you address that issue.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Aemilius

C1ay · August 1, 2013

I know who CraigD is, but when it comes to you (and I think I've been fairly patient), I'm done.... I think I have a right to know who I'm talking to..... whether that person can ban me or not. Feel free to post whatever you like and keep "neg repping" my posts, but there won't be any response from me to any more of your posts until you address that issue.

You're talking to a senior administrator of this site that has the power to demand that you follow the rules here and I owe you NO explanation as to who I am. Yes, I do have the power and the right to suspend or banish you for not following those rules and you don't get any say whatsoever in how I interpret them, especially since I helped write them, with a specific goal in mind that we have rules to limit the claims of people like PPM trolls by making them support their claims.

With that said do note that all of your shield diagrams are flawed in making predictions from your theory. You show magnets with a solid shield in front of them and then you show a tube passing through the center of it. None of your magnetic shield diagrams show how it would, or would not, effect the lines of flux in the field with a hole right in the middle of that shield for the field to pass through and your tubing to pass through. Now, you're far from done. Your iron plate with a hole in it is effectively an iron pipe. I think maybe you should look at how an iron pipe will affect the lines of flux in your magnets field.

August 2, 2013

C1ay "You're talking to a senior administrator of this site that has the power...."

As you wish.

C1ay "With that said do note that all of your shield diagrams are flawed in making predictions from your theory. You show magnets with a solid shield in front of them and then you show a tube passing through the center of it. None of your magnetic shield diagrams show how it would, or would not, effect the lines of flux in the field with a hole right in the middle of that shield for the field to pass through and your tubing to pass through. Now, you're far from done. Your iron plate with a hole in it is effectively an iron pipe. I think maybe you should look at how an iron pipe will affect the lines of flux in your magnets field."

Working.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Aemilius

August 2, 2013

As C1ay mentioned, the magnetic field shown in the schematics up to this point matches that of a solid cylindrical magnet, and since the tube passes through the magnet obviously a different field shape would exist. These diagrams are based on the common knowledge fundamental principle of magnetism that magnetic lines of force will always go in the direction that provides the easiest path from one pole to the other.

Based partly on the Hoadley solid cylindrical magnet simulation showing how a shield works in principle, along with the common knowledge fundamental principle of magnetism that magnetic lines of force have to pass through some intervening space outside the magnet to interact with other objects, these are more specific (cross sectional) desciptions of a variety of magnetic conditions that could reasonably be expected to exist within the bore....

Edited August 3, 2013 by Aemilius

C1ay · August 2, 2013

As C1ay mentioned, the magnetic field shown in the schematics up to this point matches that of a solid cylindrical magnet, and since the tube passes through the magnet obviously a different field shape would exist. These diagrams are based on the common knowledge fundamental principle of magnetism that magnetic lines of force will always go in the direction that provides the easiest path from one pole to the other.

Based partly on the Hoadley solid cylindrical magnet simulation showing how a shield works in principle, along with the common knowledge fundamental principle of magnetism that magnetic lines of force have to pass through some intervening space outside the magnet to interact with other objects, these are more specific (cross sectional) desciptions of a variety of magnetic conditions that could reasonably be expected to exist within the bore....

I would not expect these conditions at all. Please provide some supporting links for these depictions.

C1ay · August 2, 2013

Let me add something here that maybe you can explain. I have some ring shaped magnets leftover from a project of mine. I took one of them and attached a metal washer to one side. I stood it on edge on the table. I set a small ball bearing on the table on the washer side, let go of it and it jumped across the gap and stuck to the washer. On the other hand your depiction shows no lines of flux extending beyond the shield. What caused my ball bearing to jump the gap if a magnetic shield with a hole in it blocks all lines of flux?

C1ay · August 3, 2013

Let me add another question. What effect, if any, do you think your external toroidal magnetic shield has on the field internal to the annular orifice passing through the magnet?

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