Buffy Posted May 8, 2014 Report Posted May 8, 2014 Voter ID laws have been passing in many states in the US: Source: National Conference on State Legislatures via Mother Jones (image is out of date, click link to see interactive 2014 version) The primary stated justification for this movement is to shutdown "rampant voter fraud," and while the data shows that UFO sightings are more common than actual instances of Voter fraud (Mother Jones July/Aug 2012), we have yet another case here of the "gut feeling" that it could happen trumping the actual data. Now voter fraud is as American as apple pie, but the statistics show that the days of Tammany Hall are long gone with the rise of the nuclear family over social/group affinity, the cost of buying a vote and the relative cost-benefit of buying that vote through (now unlimited) political advertising. There are endless holes in the argument for Voter ID laws, most notably that they studiously avoid vote-by-mail restrictions, that along with ID possession statistics and residency requirements (disallowing voting by students attending school not in their "home" precinct) show that the main--and probably only--impact of these laws is to decrease the number of voters who tend to lean toward Democrats. Does anyone buy the argument that the statistical results are irrelevant and only "fairness" and "legitimacy" matters? What do you think will happen to these laws in the long term? It should be like a corporation. You pay a million dollars in taxes, you get a million votes, :phones:Buffy Turtle 1 Quote
Turtle Posted May 8, 2014 Report Posted May 8, 2014 Voter ID laws have been passing in many states in the US: ... The primary justification is to shutdown "rampant voter fraud" is the main excuse for this, and while the data shows that UFO sightings are more common than actual instances of Voter fraud (Mother Jones July/Aug 2012), we have yet another case here of the "gut feeling" that it could happen trumping the actual data. ... There are endless holes in the argument for Voter ID laws, most notably that they studiously avoid vote-by-mail restrictions, that along with ID possession statistics and residency requirements (disallowing voting by students attending school not in their "home" precinct) show that the main--and probably only--impact of these laws is to decrease the number of voters who tend to lean toward Democrats. Does anyone buy the argument that the statistical results are irrelevant and only "fairness" and "legitimacy" matters? What do you think will happen to these laws in the long term? It should be like a corporation. You pay a million dollars in taxes, you get a million votes, :phones: Buffy These conservative actions to throw up roadblocks to fair elections anger me no end. :rant: Between this tactic and gerrymandering the proponents think themselves pretty clever. Inasmuch as the major portion of conservatives foisting this crapola on the citizenry are white, male, and over 50 I am ashamed to be in that demographic. The answers? Keep the youth informed and politically active. Buffy 1 Quote
DFINITLYDISTRUBD Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Exactly why is expecting someone to have ID that proves them to be an American citizen and who they claim to be to vote an issue?How the [expletive] does one even function in this country without a social security card, birth certificate and most important a state issued photo ID of some sort.EVERY job I've ever held has required at a minimum a State issued photo ID and a Social Security card be presented at the time of hire as proof of eligibility to work in this country I expectTo get all worked up and claim that requiring a person to have something they already need to have to get a job, to get an apartment, to rent or lease anything, to operate a motor vehicle (or get a permit to operate one), to get SSI or welfare benefits, to get a loan, to open a bank account, to attend university, to legally purchase a firearm, to get a conceal and carry permit, etc etc. is an unfair burden or evil plot to deny American citizens the right to vote is nothing short of pure BS. And BTW...ANY voting fraud is too much, to claim that any is acceptable is to say that the process and results are meaningless. Edited May 11, 2014 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD Quote
Turtle Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 Exactly why is expecting someone to have ID that proves them to be an American citizen and who they claim to be to vote an issue? ... The problem here is who is calling for these laws and for what reason. You can research the who yourself and as we have said, the why is to keep an 'undesirable' class of voters from voting. Besides the ID ploy, there is the ploy to outlaw voting by mail to cut out these 'undesirables'. Here in my state of Washington, it's all vote by mail and to the best of my knowledge we have no significant voter fraud problems. Quote
DFINITLYDISTRUBD Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) The only "undesirable class" it would prevent from voting are those that are....1. NOT United States citizens.and2. folks who apparently have never gotten a license to drive, hunt, fish or in some municipalities ride a bicycle, opened a bank account, gotten medical attention, attended a higher learning institution, applied for any government benefits of any kind whatsoever, borrowed money from a lending institution, owned a firearm, held a job, rented an apartment, had utilities in their own name, and never cashed a check or money order either...all of which require a State photo ID...oddly enough here in Pa. anyway when you obtain or renew your State ID or DL, you can, with the tick of a single box renew your voter registration as well.I cannot see how such a person as the second instance can even exist....even as a shut-in...a person that is more of an shut-in than myself would be highly unlikely to vote at all.. therefore unaffected by such laws anyway...I have always had at the least a State ID. Vote by mail eh....and how do they verify that the fella that mailed the vote in is....1. A US citizen? 2. Not someone casting multiple votes?3. Not a felon?Seems like a system conducive to fraudulent voting practices... Edited May 11, 2014 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD Quote
Turtle Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 The only "undesirable class" it would prevent from voting are those that are.... 1. NOT United States citizens. and 2. folks who apparently have never gotten a license to drive, hunt, fish or in some municipalities ride a bicycle, opened a bank account, gotten medical attention, attended a higher learning institution, applied for any government benefits of any kind whatsoever, borrowed money from a lending institution, owned a firearm, held a job, rented an apartment, had utilities in their own name, and never cashed a check or money order either...all of which require a State photo ID...oddly enough here in Pa. anyway when you obtain or renew your State ID or DL, you can, with the tick of a single box renew your voter registration as well. No; the 'undesirables' are the poor and minorities who tend to vote democratic/liberal. The folks pushing these laws are not poor and are conservatives/Republicans. I cannot see how such a person as the second instance can even exist....even as a shut-in...a person that is more of an shut-in than myself would be highly unlikely to vote at all.. therefore unaffected by such laws anyway...I have always had at the least a State ID. I agree you can't see it. Nonetheless, it is the case. Vote by mail eh....and how do they verify that the fella that mailed the vote in is.... 1. A US citizen? 2. Not someone casting multiple votes? 3. Not a felon? Seems like a system conducive to fraudulent voting practices... People have to have ID to register, but not necessarily photo ID as the point is in this thread. We can register by mail with just a SS number and signing the affidavit. Washington voter mail registration form. Regardless of what it seems like, as I said we don't have a problem with fraudulent voting. How Much Voter Fraud Is There? A state-by-state map reveals the answer: almost none. Washington 35 total known voter fraud cases [since 2000] Other cases of election fraud: - Campaign officials: 0 - Election officials: 0 - Third parties: 7 - Unknown: 228 Total election fraud cases: 270 Quote
Buffy Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Posted May 11, 2014 How the [expletive] does one even function in this country without a social security card, birth certificate and most important a state issued photo ID of some sort. EVERY job I've ever held has required at a minimum a State issued photo ID and a Social Security card be presented at the time of hire as proof of eligibility to work in this country I expect You're apparently not aware of how egregious the provisions of these laws are. Half of them require a photo ID, so a social security card or birth certificate are NOT acceptable. Ever looked at your Social Security card? It says explicitly on it "NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION" put there by act of congress, and anyone who's had their identity stolen wishes that actually were the case. As a result it turns out employers obviously require the *number*, but by law they can't require you to produce the card itself (even though they push it, because it let's them take the risk on not verifying it, which many don't due to the cost, and besides if the name doesn't match up or the number's been flagged, that will get kicked out in the first paycheck). So, it turns out you can get a job with little more than a SS NUMBER, and as for birth certificates they are rarely required, usually only for jobs that actually require citizenship (I've certainly never needed to produce mine). To get all worked up and claim that requiring a person to have something they already need to have to get a job, to get an apartment, to rent or lease anything, to operate a motor vehicle (or get a permit to operate one), to get SSI or welfare benefits, to get a loan, to open a bank account, to attend university, to legally purchase a firearm, to get a conceal and carry permit, etc etc. is an unfair burden or evil plot to deny American citizens the right to vote is nothing short of pure BS. Nor do you need it for most other things you do. My daughter applied for admission to college last year. She was asked for her SSN, but she did not have to produce it or any other form of identification. Surprisingly, although she's going to school in San Diego, fully 1/3 of her class never got a driver's license. And in places like New York City, that number goes through the roof. Open a bank account? SSN only, no card. Do they ask for a driver's license? Sure, and when you've been asked you've always produced it, but for those who don't have it, the bank is happy to take the business with any slip of paper (an electricity bill or whatever) as "identification." And if you've seen any news lately the pay-day lender/check cashing service is HUGE business focused heavily on the poor, specifically rooted in areas where there's relatively high crime and the banks simply don't want to put offices there. Purchase a firearm? Ever been to a gun show? Lots of these don't require anything. So, I'm sorry, yes, you can function quite well without a photo ID. Worse, the way the laws are crafted go way beyond what virtually any of these services require. Older people are being forced to produce birth certificates which they do not have because births of poor people giving birth at home didn't stop as long ago as you might imagine. And loss of records due to disaster still happens a lot more than you might think. What are these people supposed to do for laws where a Photo ID might not be required but a Birth Certificate is? And that's the crux of the problem: The folks who don't have a photo ID skew older or younger or poorer or tend to be minorities. Guess which party has the same demographic? Texas requires that the driver's license exactly match registration records, and made changing registration a nightmare requiring physically going to the state registrar in person and providing all documentation of changes in names, which being a man you've probably never thought about, but for women marriages and divorces happen with a certain regularity. This was going to be such an embarrassment that the Republican's unanimously supported a measure by that commie Wendy Davis to fix the problem by allowing people whose names did not exactly match to sign an affidavit swearing that they were the same person (a clause the Republicans insisted upon). Guess which party has a "woman problem?" In many precincts fully 20% of the voters had to sign such affidavits. Many laws (North Carolina & Wisconsin among others) are written to have specific residency requirements of being in a state for a specific period of time, and/or insist on a photo ID that shows an address that matches the state or even the specific precinct the voter is registering for. Guess who gets disenfranchised? Students. Guess who they predominantly vote for? On the other hand, ANYONE can register to vote in front of a supermarket, helpfully assisted by a probable partisan without any ID and check off the request for a mail in ballot. Do ANY of these laws try to restrict mail-in voting? Of course not, because mail-in ballots skew heavily Republican. And BTW...ANY voting fraud is too much, to claim that any is acceptable is to say that the process and results are meaningless. How much voter fraud is really going on? Republican's wave their hands, scream "ACORN!" and site a bunch of anecdotal examples, but the statistics are actually shocking given the sound and fury surrounding the topic: Out of the 197 million votes cast for federal candidates between 2002 and 2005, only 40 voters were indicted for voter fraud, according to a Department of Justice study outlined during a 2006 Congressional hearing. Only 26 of those cases, or about .00000013 percent of the votes cast, resulted in convictions or guilty pleas. Source: ABC News 9/12/12 There are endless statistics showing handfuls of voter fraud convictions that are far, far lower than the admitted error rate on the machines that count the votes. Most of the claims showing higher numbers focus on things like arrests (not convictions) for fraud--where the immediately preceding statistic above goes up to a whopping 221 arrests out of 197 million votes--or for claims of "double registration" which includes all people who moved and didn't actively remove their prior registrations--and when was the last time you did that? Now look at the other side: In that previous Texas example 20% of voters many precincts would have been told they could not participate simply because they got married or divorced. Counting only young minorities, 700,000 of them probably could not vote in the 2012 election. The Brennan Center estimates that 10% of ALL VOTERS will be restricted from voting solely based on Photo ID laws. Now this had become such a crusade based on echo chamber reinforced misinformation that it's basically an article of faith on the right that there is "rampant fraud" and the "Democrat party has stolen many elections" so there's no talking any sense into these folks, but even Ron Paul is trying to pull his party back from the brink. Now it's certainly your right to ignore all this data. You're welcome to vote for anyone you want. But to pretend that Voter ID laws simply keep out non-citizens is simply not supported by the facts. I find it amazing that anyone would find it reasonable to put need to ensure that a few hundred "illegal" votes are not cast despite the fact that literally millions of voters are disenfranchised by the requirement unless they had a big self-interest in ensuring that specific segments of the electorate were carved out. Which a lot of folks do. The demographics of the Republican party are pretty bad: Democrats running for the House in 2012 got 1.4 million more votes than Republicans, but due to Gerrymandering, the Republicans still control it. And now they're trying to enhance that by making sure that certain demographics who lean Democrat can't vote. And that is the ONLY reason for Voter ID. Life is an unbroken succession of false situations, :phones:Buffy Quote
DFINITLYDISTRUBD Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 So, exactly how much does an ID cost in the 50 States? Not a DL, mind you, just a basic ID card Alabama – $23Alaska – Under 60 is $15, over 60 is freeArizona – $12. Over 65 is freeArkansas – $10California – $23. Free for those over 62. $7 for low income folksColorado – $10.50. Free for those over 60Connecticut – $15Delaware -$5Florida – $3 whole friggin’ dollars!!!!!!Georgia -$20 for 5 years, $35 for $10 yearsHawaii – $15 for under 65, $10 for over 65Idaho – $7.50. Renewals can even be done by mailIllinois – $20, free for seniors over 65with no renewal necessaryIndiana – $13 under 65, $10 for over 65, last for 6 years, which is the state this whole kerfuffle is overIowa – $5Kansas – $18 under 65, $14 over 65Kentucky – $12Louisiana – Average $21, free for over 60Maine – $5Maryland – $15, free for those over 65Massachusetts – $15Michigan – $10, free for seniors. Oh, and those with mental impairments (hint, hint)Minnesota – $15.50, $10.75 for those 65 and upMississippi – $13Missouri – $11Montana – $8Nebraska – $23.75 (lots of different fees for those under 21)Nevada – $11.25. For 65 and up, new is $6.25, renewal is $2.25New Hampshire – haven’t been able to find the cost, even at the New Hampshire DMV or New Hampshire’s main siteNew Jersey – $24New Mexico – $5 for 5 years, $8 for 10 yearsNew York – Depending on length, $9 to $14. 62 and up, $6.50North Carolina – $10North Dakota – $8Ohio – $8.50Oklahoma – $10Oregon – $29 for 8 yearsPennsylvania – $10, and they make it really, really easyRhode Island – $15, free for 59 and upSouth Carolina – $5South Dakota – $8Tennessee – $12.50. For those 65 and up, they never expireTexas – $15. 60 and up, $5 and never has to be renewedUtah – $18. Never expires for those 65 and upVermont – $15, $10 if you get Social Security IncomeVirginia – $10Washington – $20West Virginia – can’t find an actual figureWisconsin – $28 for eight yearsWyoming – $10, never expiresWashington, D.C. – How much you got? In reality, $20. Cannot trade your Tech-9 for one, either.The astronomical cost of a photo ID by state. Quote
Buffy Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Posted May 11, 2014 The astronomical cost of a photo ID by state. Time? Effort? Restricted hours? You're poor, you don't have transportation. The cost is not the issue, and you're not addressing any of the real ones. When a magician lets you notice something on your own, his lie becomes impenetrable, :phones:Buffy Quote
DFINITLYDISTRUBD Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 Texas requires that the driver's license exactly match registration records, and made changing registration a nightmare requiring physically going to the state registrar in person and providing all documentation of changes in names, which being a man you've probably never thought about, but for women marriages and divorces happen with a certain regularity.Actually I've had several name changes over the years as a result of adoption and marriage. Purchase a firearm? Ever been to a gun show?My cousin and uncle are gunsmiths...so no. Open a bank account? SSN only, no card. Do they ask for a driver's license? Sure, and when you've been asked you've always produced it, but for those who don't have it, the bank is happy to take the business with any slip of paper (an electricity bill or whatever) as "identification."Nope had to have at the minimum a photo ID for mine, my wife's and my daughter's....stepson had to get a photo ID to open his account at his bank. How the [expletive] does one even function in this country without a social security card, birth certificate and most important a state issued photo ID of some sort.You're apparently not aware of how egregious the provisions of these laws are. Half of them require a photo ID, so a social security card or birth certificate are NOT acceptable. Ever looked at your Social Security card? It says explicitly on it "NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION" put there by act of congress, and anyone who's had their identity stolen wishes that actually were the case. As a result it turns out employers obviously require the *number*, but by law they can't require you to produce the card itself (even though they push it, because it let's them take the risk on not verifying it, which many don't due to the cost, and besides if the name doesn't match up or the number's been flagged, that will get kicked out in the first paycheck). So, it turns out you can get a job with little more than a SS NUMBER, and as for birth certificates they are rarely required, usually only for jobs that actually require citizenship (I've certainly never needed to produce mine). Might fly where you are, around here you either provide two forms of ID (one must be a photo ID and the other a SS card, birth certificate or work visa) or you don't work...ie the first guy or gal after you that will present the required documentation will get the job.Say what you want, but the fact remains you can either comply or look for employment elsewhere....doesn't bother them one bit which you choose. My daughter applied for admission to college last year. She was asked for her SSN, but she did not have to produce it or any other form of identification. There is not one member of my household that gained admission to college without being required to produce a photo ID (that would be three of us).... Interestingly to purchase software for my mrs's and my daughter's course work they needed to present their student photo ID's as well. [to be cont.] Quote
DFINITLYDISTRUBD Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Time? Effort? Restricted hours? You're poor, you don't have transportation. The cost is not the issue, and you're not addressing any of the real ones. When a magician lets you notice something on your own, his lie becomes impenetrable, :phones:Buffy Poor? Right now I'm trying to figure out how to make my house payment, no groceries for this week for sure, no gas in my vehicle for yet another week. and I've no idea how I'm paying the gas and electric bills next week...not sure how I'm fitting in groceries next week either. Transportation? I got my Photo ID by WALKING 15 miles to the DMV, got my learners permit by riding my bicycle to the same place a few months later. Restricted hours.....funny, I've always managed.... even when I was driving a vending route from 5 am to 9 pm Monday through Saturday....managed to renew (which requires showing up for a new photo after filing the appropriate paperwork) when I was working in shops from 6 to 430 pm, working nights from 10 to 6...even when I was working nights full time and going to school full time during the day...even manage while juggling two jobs, oddly enough so does my mrs, even our daughter who doesn't drive because she is legally blind managed to get her photo ID without our help while she was a full time HS student, working part time and fulfilling her obligations to orchestra, marching band, softball, soccer, after school tutoring duties and babysitting for her oldest sister. Come up with every excuse you can think of...it won't change the fact that if a person needs a photo ID the only reason they can't get one is a failure put in the effort and pay a small fee once every four or five years. Edited May 11, 2014 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD Quote
Buffy Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Posted May 11, 2014 Nope had to have at the minimum a photo ID for mine, my wife's and my daughter's....stepson had to get a photo ID to open his account at his bank. Don't bother to read what I wrote: You probably didn't ASK. Yes people can tell you to take a flying leap. Can they do it legally, not in most places. Are the laws unenforced? Sure, especially in red states. We used to have dystopian science fiction written about futures where everyone is numbered and is illegal without one. Now we have folks demanding that that happen for their paranoia-induced need for "safety." If we want to be safe from terrorists, shouldn't we wire everyone up so that the government knows exactly where everyone is all the time? Round up people who don't have a chip and throw them in prison? "Well it's worth it as long as I'm perfectly safe." None of the anecdotal "evidence" you've presented counters any of the actual facts. Even the most egregiously made up numbers that are being thrown out by the likes of Breitbart and World Net Daily are completely insignificant. And most of the actual incidences of voter fraud are individual crackpots and felons who didn't know they couldn't vote. I ask you, what is it that you're afraid of? what outcome is so horrific that you want to spend the hundreds of millions that it would cost to make it easy for all these folks without ID's to get them (and that's only including the "low costs of registering for an ID" you showed above, let alone the transit programs to get them there, the cost of lost wages because they had to take a day off to deal with offices that are open only 10-4 on weekdays, etc, etc, etc.? Let alone the extra effort of checking, forcing folks who don't have perfect IDs to sign affidavits or fill in provisional ballots that then become the source of expensive court fights. Do you really want to pay all that money? Can we increase your taxes for it? The democrats were the last party to actually have a decent excuse for claiming they were robbed in an election (Gore v. Bush). Did they claim *voter* fraud? No, because it would make them look insane. Did the Republicans? Well at least in 2000 they weren't that insane either (yet). The issue boiled down to simply counting the votes or not. There really is something to think about here about the *value* of absolute safety. The fact is there are all kinds of dangers in society, and this is one of the most unbelievably insignificant ones that the amount of resources already spent on it is a crime. I moved to New York City for my health. I'm paranoid and New York was the only place where my fears were justified, :phones:Buffy Eclogite 1 Quote
DFINITLYDISTRUBD Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Don't bother to read what I wrote: You probably didn't ASK.Actually I DID read what you wrote. The bank said we had to be able to provide photographic proof of who we are to open an account...and (oddly enough) if asked, to withdraw money from said account...apparently it is of great concern to them that someone who is not me might try to write checks using my account. what is it that you're afraid of?Nothing...but you apparently are terrified of something... Doesn't matter to me what @$$#0l3 (I do know for certain it will never be a libertarian, contrary to popular belief 90% of Americans are against giving folks the freedom to decide how they want to live their own lives....just as many are against doing away with nany state entitlements and interference) they put into office as they're all out to **** us in every conceivable way they can...some are just more open about it than others....you vote for someone else that may either vote as you wish them too or might find it in their interest to vote against your wishes....your vote, my vote, turtle's vote ain't none of em mean jack s**t...The United States Electoral College has the final say....and I'd say Bush's reelection was more than enough proof that they do what'er suits them, not what the voter's has expressed as their wishes....I suspect Obama getting a second term is also yet another example the separation of voters and the electoral process....of course it could just be that morons that vote far outnumber those with a modicum of sense that vote. I've vowed to never register to vote ever again after this year...it simply doesn't matter and I'm tired of getting called for jury duty (Four times in four years give me a ****ing break already...and how is this forced servitude even legal anyway!?!?!? I mean **** $9 a day minus $3 for parking, minus $20 to purchase clothing that complies with the dress code, minus $7 for fuel....$21 out of pocket plus lost wages for the first day and then $1 out of pocket and lost wages for every subsequent day...for the "privilege").though they say having a DL also gets you on the list as well so it probably doesn't matter anyway..Just having a hard time understanding how it is such an insurmountable burden to get an ID. These folk seem to be able to manage to register to vote....apparently....to be honest I've no idea how one registers...never had to as it's handled by the DMV when I renew my license..too birds, one stone. How exactly do they know how much or how little voter fraud is going on when no one is bothering to verify voters are who they claim to be, are only voting in one location and not at others under a different alias, etc.etc.? I can make unverifiable claims about voting too...try this one...NO legally registered voter has EVER received a paper cut while voting. Without any actual research into the issue including knowing with absolute certainty that every last voter was who they claimed to be you can't prove my statement to be false....nor can you prove it to be true. Nor can you prove voter fraud to be at claimed levels, greater or less. All you have are estimates based on hunches. Edited May 11, 2014 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD Quote
Buffy Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Posted May 11, 2014 Poor? Right now I'm trying to figure out how to make my house payment, no groceries for this week for sure, no gas in my vehicle for yet another week. and I've no idea how I'm paying the gas and electric bills next week...not sure how I'm fitting in groceries next week either. I feel your pain. You're raging against folks that are indeed less well off than you. You should consider they're not even lucky enough to be healthy and able to work. Transportation? I got my Photo ID by WALKING 15 miles to the DMV, got my learners permit by riding my bicycle to the same place a few months later. Great! You're healthy! My eighty year-old mom is in great shape, but she would be hard pressed to walk 15 miles. I spend a lot of time in the Eastern Sierras, and often do my Dept. of Motor Vehicles interactions at the office in Bishop,CA. It is the ONLY place you can get a photo ID for 150 miles in either direction. And there's no bus service. Restricted hours.....funny, I've always managed.... even when I was driving a vending route from 5 am to 9 pm Monday through Saturday....managed to renew (which requires showing up for a new photo after filing the appropriate paperwork) when I was working in shops from 6 to 430 pm, working nights from 10 to 6...even when I was working nights full time and going to school full time during the day...even manage while juggling two jobs, oddly enough so does my mrs, even our daughter who doesn't drive because she is legally blind managed to get her photo ID without our help while she was a full time HS student, working part time and fulfilling her obligations to orchestra, marching band, softball, soccer, after school tutoring duties and babysitting for her oldest sister. Be glad you had jobs where you could take the time off, and especially when you only had 15 miles to walk. The fact is that states that are implementing Voter ID are also restricting hours for getting the necessary IDs. They are doing this on purpose because they know that it makes it harder for people to register to vote. And I can absolutely guarantee you that unless you live right next to the university that your daughter would want to go to in North Carolina that she would be prohibited from voting there no matter how many forms she had time to fill out. Come up with every excuse you can think of...it won't change the fact that if a person needs a photo ID the only reason they can't get one is a failure put in the effort and pay a small fee once every four or five years. One's own personal experience is actually a really horrible place to start with trying to figure out public policy, but that is EXACTLY what Republicans are using to manipulate people like you who are in unfortunate situations. To you this is all obvious since it fits in with your particular circumstances, and you've done it so why can't everyone else? Yes, you're poor. But you have a house, you have facilities nearby (within 15 miles), you don't have to walk through crime-ridden streets. You aren't crippled and unable to sit for long periods of time. You probably got that ID to get lots of other things that these people don't: be able to drive a car they'll never be able to afford, get a credit card that they'll never qualify for, buy a gun from a legitimate gun dealer that they not only can't afford but don't want. The only thing they need that damn ID for is to vote, and since voting isn't a requirement (as it is in some countries) it's easier not to vote at all if they're more interested in simply--as you do--want to focus on getting enough to eat. Should these people really have to jump through increasingly difficult registration requirements in order to exercise their vote to be heard? All in pursuit of a problem *that does not exist* in any practical way? What are your goals in doing this? This is not an exercise of how things ought to be or what is "obviously" true, it's dealing with the practical issue of millions of people who should be able to vote are being told they can't unless they pass an intelligence test just get an ID. This has nothing to do with ensuring the legitimacy of the vote and everything to do with disenfranchisement. And the excuse that it's "cheap" to get an ID? I'm sorry, that's still what we call a Poll Tax, and if you want to avoid that (and there are lawsuits going on right now that are based on that issue), you're going to have to make it free not just to the people who can walk 15 miles in a blizzard to do it, but to actually go into places where people can't get out or are to scared to, on a 24/7 basis to be able to say with a clear conscience that "we are not blocking the right of legitimate citizens to vote." If a program to get everyone registered who was a legitimate voter like that was part of a Voter ID law, I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to support it. But I can assure you that's not what's going to happen because, guess what? Those people who'd take advantage of it are much more likely to be....Democrats. Any party which takes credit for the rain must not be surprised if its opponents blame it for the drought, :phones:Buffy Quote
Buffy Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Posted May 11, 2014 Actually I DID read what you wrote. The bank said we had to be able to provide photographic proof of who we are to open an account...and (oddly enough) if asked, to withdraw money from said account...apparently it is of great concern to them that someone who is not me might try to write checks using my account. And there are many places where that is the case and other's where it's prohibited precisely because it's discriminatory. Again, did you actually try to get an account without one? No, they asked for it, you had it, they gave you an account. That's not proof of anything about "needing a photo ID to get a bank account." Go to West Oakland and--assuming you can find the one branch there--they'll take your electric bill and your paycheck, make calls to verify that you're actually an employee there, call your landlord, ask for a personal reference that they'll check too. My housekeeper had to do this, it does happen. So although it's certainly easier to live with an ID, you actually do NOT need one to be able to get by. Oddly enough, some people see that as a good thing. Weirdly, the same libertarians who want to register every poor person in order to keep them from voting, rail against registering guns and are pouring their money into untraceable gold and Bitcoins. Imagine that. And it's another reason that big banks have not only continued to pull branches out of poor areas but actually *invest* in pay-day loan/check cashing operations that charge you 3%-5% simply to cash a check. Much money to be made there for the folks who don't have the perseverance that you do. I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies, :phones:Buffy Quote
DFINITLYDISTRUBD Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 A laughable concept Elect the wealthy, then wonder why only the wealthy benefit from their actions. Quote
Turtle Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 ... Without any actual research into the issue including knowing with absolute certainty that every last voter was who they claimed to be you can't prove my statement to be false....nor can you prove it to be true. Nor can you prove voter fraud to be at claimed levels, greater or less. All you have are estimates based on hunches. I gave a source on this. As to being absolute, surely you know there is no such thing in any civic activity. Expecting or demanding it be otherwise is an exercise in futility. The fact is that a select group of folks are trying [and in too many case succeeding] to make it harder for another select group of people to vote. If I remember anything about US history, the ongoing goal has been to have a setup where more people can vote. Women's suffrage comes to mind among others. Government by the people and for the people and all that. You young readers take note that it isn't just the poor and minorities that are meant to be shut out, it's you too. Tiresome and fatiguing as politics is, it's what has given you your rights and everything you take for granted. Along with rights go responsibility. Vote & vote often; you reap what you sow. Quote
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