Rats Can Feel Regret?

[Alex358]

A study has been done showing that rats can feel regret over food choices that they make. They were given a choice of foods and a limited time to make their decision. Roughly put, once the time had expired, the rats' brain chemistry was measured to show the chemical released during the feeling of regret and some of the rat's exhibited this chemical. Read more on the study here: 

 

Rats Feel Regret

[PiSquare]

If rats can feel regret it makes me wonder about the ethics of doing gruelling and gruesome experiments on these small mammals. Not that I like the species at all, but they are still part of the animal food chain (or not?).

[smalfry]

I don't buy into this. Regret really, in rats? I don't like rats at all so I don't care if they feel regret or not. I agree that there is a food-chain and rats are pretty low on it. I wouldn't eat a rat though.

[Eclogite]

I don't buy into this. Regret really, in rats? I don't like rats at all so I don't care if they feel regret or not. I agree that there is a food-chain and rats are pretty low on it. I wouldn't eat a rat though.

1. What is your scientific justification for not buying this? I understand you emotional, illogical, unsubstantiated justification, but surely you have more?

2. What has your like or dislike of rats got to do with the findings of the study?

[ErlyRisa]

phriars

[Eclogite]

ErlyRiser, this is a discussion forum not a mystery novel. I have no idea what phriars means, nor do I understand how it relates to my prior post, or to this thread. Will you please clarify.

[Gregb]

I read this on CNN and thought it was very interesting. I think it's amazing how over time we find other animals are much more complex than we realized.

[CraigD]

It’s important to understand that what neuropsychologists like Redish and Steiner, the authors of the study in this article, mean by the term “regret” is different in a more precise way than what most people mean by it in ordinary communication.

 

In ordinary communication, we associate many related, stressful emotions, such as guilt, self-doubt, or a sense of irretrievable loss, with the term “regret”.

 

What Redish and Steiner are talking about in their rats is a specific, measurable (with implanted electrodes – all of the articles I’ve seen about their study shows pretty, well-groomed rats, none of them rats with wires stuck in their heads, suggesting their authors are sensitive to their readers’ sensibilities) activity in the orbitofrontal cortex brain region thought to be related to awareness of having made a decision (moving from a feeding station they knew, by the tone it made, would not give them food as quickly as another) that resulted in them not getting a desired thing (a favorite food).

 

As the study and various article writers have noted, this feeling may be somewhat analogous to the way we humans feel when we want to go to a favorite restaurant, find the line to it too long, and go and get quickly served at a place we like less.

 

I’d be curious to see if this activity occurs in other animals, not only mammals, but, say, octopi and fish. Since its thought to be strongly related with the ability to learn, my guess is all mammals have it, but no fish do. I can’t hazard a guess about octopi – remember this recent thread where we marveled at how weirdly brained, yet smart, they are?

[Elisa]

It’s important to understand that what neuropsychologists like Redish and Steiner, the authors of the study in this article, mean by the term “regret” is different in a more precise way than what most people mean by it in ordinary communication.

 

In ordinary communication, we associate many related, stressful emotions, such as guilt, self-doubt, or a sense of irretrievable loss, with the term “regret”.

 

What Redish and Steiner are talking about in their rats is a specific, measurable (with implanted electrodes – all of the articles I’ve seen about their study shows pretty, well-groomed rats, none of them rats with wires stuck in their heads, suggesting their authors are sensitive to their readers’ sensibilities) activity in the orbitofrontal cortex brain region thought to be related to awareness of having made a decision (moving from a feeding station they knew, by the tone it made, would not give them food as quickly as another) that resulted in them not getting a desired thing (a favorite food).

 

As the study and various article writers have noted, this feeling may be somewhat analogous to the way we humans feel when we want to go to a favorite restaurant, find the line to it too long, and go and get quickly served at a place we like less.

 

I’d be curious to see if this activity occurs in other animals, not only mammals, but, say, octopi and fish. Since its thought to be strongly related with the ability to learn, my guess is all mammals have it, but no fish do. I can’t hazard a guess about octopi – remember this recent thread where we marveled at how weirdly brained, yet smart, they are?

 

Hmmm, I would venture to agree that it would be similar, but not the same as the "regret" that we think of as humans. It's interesting indeed, to see a measurable change in emotion in animals. We know they feel, but to what extent do they learn and process and what is simple evolutionary behavior?

[PiSquare]

It’s important to understand that what neuropsychologists like Redish and Steiner, the authors of the study in this article, mean by the term “regret” is different in a more precise way than what most people mean by it in ordinary communication.

 

In ordinary communication, we associate many related, stressful emotions, such as guilt, self-doubt, or a sense of irretrievable loss, with the term “regret”.

 

What Redish and Steiner are talking about in their rats is a specific, measurable (with implanted electrodes – all of the articles I’ve seen about their study shows pretty, well-groomed rats, none of them rats with wires stuck in their heads, suggesting their authors are sensitive to their readers’ sensibilities) activity in the orbitofrontal cortex brain region thought to be related to awareness of having made a decision (moving from a feeding station they knew, by the tone it made, would not give them food as quickly as another) that resulted in them not getting a desired thing (a favorite food).

 

As the study and various article writers have noted, this feeling may be somewhat analogous to the way we humans feel when we want to go to a favorite restaurant, find the line to it too long, and go and get quickly served at a place we like less.

 

I’d be curious to see if this activity occurs in other animals, not only mammals, but, say, octopi and fish. Since its thought to be strongly related with the ability to learn, my guess is all mammals have it, but no fish do. I can’t hazard a guess about octopi – remember this recent thread where we marveled at how weirdly brained, yet smart, they are?

 

In the apparent absence of an exact word to describe what rats 'feel' in a controlled environment where they have limited time to make food choices, Redish and Steiner probably selected an existing word with the closest resemblance to this 'feeling'.

 

With reference to the last paragraph of CraigD's post, it really made me think. I agree that fish lack the ability to learn; this of course excludes marine mammals such as whales and dolphins which have been found to be highly intelligent. As for octopi, what an amazing yet mysterious species! I would not be surprized if further research would conclude that octopi are far more intelligent than we think.  

[Titan]

In regards to ethics of Animals,Ann Druyan talked about an experiment that really stands out to me. 

 

"In the annals of primate ethics, there are some accounts that have the ring of parable. In a laboratory setting, macaques were fed if they were willing to pull a chain and electrically shock an unrelated macaque whose agony was in plain view through a one-way mirror. Otherwise, they starved. After learning the ropes, the monkeys frequently refused to pull the chain; in one experiment only 13% would do so - 87% preferred to go hungry. One macaque went without food for nearly two weeks rather than hurt its fellow. Macaques who had themselves been shocked in previous experiments were even less willing to pull the chain. The relative social status or gender of the macaques had little bearing on their reluctance to hurt others." 

 

So remarkable that these primates who had never had an ethics lesson, or commandments to follow were able to make these decisions.