Palestine - Israeli Conflict

[pagetheoracle]

As human beings own only their bodies and as they are mobile, neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's can logically claim that Israel / Palestine is theirs or the Dinosaurs could come back and claim their 'legal inheritance.' Everything changes.  Everything moves, so nothing can be claimed to be held onto forever.  It is agreement among men that says different but it is a mental concept not a physical reality.

 

Second point.  Hammas is firing mobile sited missiles, therefore Israel cannot take them out except through the use of ground forces, especially marksmen with high powered rifles, shooting the operators or tanks / small artillery, targetting them from rocket flashes but even that is not assured because they could fire one rocket, then move off to a different location.  As for Israel saying this is defence, again the above point negates this.  The Palestinians seem to be trying to bring in the United Nations but apart from that there actions seem pretty futile against a better armed, better organized attack force. 

 

As in all these situations it is the civilians who get caught up in this and suffer, so it cannot be said especially by Hammas, that they are doing this for their people as they started the hostilities.  Long suffering?  It seems more like they are short tempered as what followed was no big surprise to anyone I doubt.

 

To me all this seems pointless and counter-productive.

 

[LaurieAG]

It seems more like they are short tempered as what followed was no big surprise to anyone I doubt.

 

The problem is the end result of repeated cycles over a much longer period of time.

 

How can you be so sure that condoning genocide because 'they were bad tempered and asked for it' is a good enough reason to allow the continuation of the current process towards its inevitable conclusion? 

[pagetheoracle]

I don't condone genocide. This is an explanation of how it occurs in a tit-for-tat manner. It's about reaction versus self-control. These repeated cycles do occur over and over again, leading to violence and then peace as both sides get fed up with bloodying each others noses. Tolerance and patience builds - impatience and intolerance destroys. We all have our limits where humility is lost to pride and violence erupts. My point is that if The Palestinians spent more time on building their own resources from within, rather than attacking and blaming the Israeli's without as external enemies, then Palestine might be more prosperous than it is. Industry and co-operation is mutually beneficial for all whereas violence is mutually destructive. Simple logic seen as action / inaction all over the world throughout history.

 

As for genocide - isn't the avoidance of that driving the Israeli's (the Holocaust)? Looking at it from an evolutionary viewpoint, The Jewish people are more successful than the Palestinians. It is not a question of right or wrong (moral judgement) but results (facts). Where are the Dinosaurs now? Where are the Wooly Mammoths? Where are The Aztecs, Inca's, The Egyptian and Roman civilizations? Superseded by new versions of life, whether we like it or not (Where will you and I be in a few years time? Just as replaced as these massive movements).

 

Another of my points was the futility of both sides mindless actions, rather than mindful ones that might actually achieve something instead of pretending too. In other words if they were kids, they'd need their heads knocking together because of their stupidity and lies.

[LaurieAG]

Another of my points was the futility of both sides mindless actions, rather than mindful ones that might actually achieve something instead of pretending too. In other words if they were kids, they'd need their heads knocking together because of their stupidity and lies.

 

Where are the responsible adults when you need them?

[pagetheoracle]

They are there when they can stand to control their temper - me included

 

[LaurieAG]

They are there when they can stand to control their temper - me included

 

So you do support genocide then, albeit conditionally.

[pagetheoracle]

No. What I support is people having the sense to control their own actions and act responsibly i.e. live in peace together. I saw a BBC News report recently where a Hammas spokesman said that they were bombing Israel to improve the lives of Palestinians. This is totally illogical as it has led to the death of 120 of their own citizens, numerous other casualties among their population and the wide destruction of property. Has Israel's response stopped them firing more rockets at Israel? No, so their response is equally stupid. Having said that can I personally stop either side behaving this way? No. Peace requires self-control despite provocation and that means both sides. War depletes both sides - peace allows resources to build up. This is simple logic.

 

The other point I was making, was about evolution. It's not what people should do but what they do, do and how it affects their lives. Indigenous people are being absorbed or wiped out by the spread of Western civilization and this includes the Arab world. Where have all the North American Indians gone? The Aborigines in Australia? It seems the Maoris in New Zealand are not slipping into ghettos or reservations, unlike a lot of other supposed primitive people but the juggernaut of capitalism and industry is wiping a lot of others of the face of the Earth, even if not everybody else sees the equation of Arab and American Indian as falling before the same onslaught (Also look at Tibet and China - same thing, supposed different idealism i.e. lack of choice inflicted upon them). This is the process, not the ethical viewpoint as mentioned in the previous paragraph - the sad reality, not the hoped for dream.

[Eclogite]

If the Palestinians and the Israelis both had a Nelson Mandela, peace would break out in days.

[pagetheoracle]

Too true. I wouldn't attempt as I'm bound to be burnt as a heretic by both sides!

[LaurieAG]

B'Tselem has championed human rights in the West Bank and Gaza Strip for over two decades, promoting a future where all Israelis and Palestinians will live in freedom and dignity.

http://www.btselem.org/

[pagetheoracle]

The way I see it, to settle is to accumulate knowledge and possessions, whereas to move on is to tighten up and abandon (travel light* / settle heavy). My point about indigenous people ties in with this in that although they settle, they move on when resources wear down. Complexity (civilization / materialism) comes from settling because you explore things in depth where you are, where pioneer people being extrovert in their attention, turn outwards to explore the world in general or that is how I interpret it: The agricultural revolution came about through giving up the nomadic life for one of stability. From this came the revolution in science and technology for the same reason - time to explore ideas because (as in meditation) you stop and observe existence, making discoveries that a mobile life precludes.

 

My reference point for introversion/ extroversion is Jung and Susan Cain's well researched book on this topic "Quiet," that notes introversion occurs naturally in old age because you are forced to slow down and settle, therefore noticing and remembering things lost in hasty youth: This I think applies to societies as well as individuals.

 

As for your point above Laurie, I see that people huddle in their own little clans, to preserve their cultural beliefs but that there is also a no-man's land of exchange, where such differences are forgotten by those courageous enough to abandon such stereotypical behaviour and explore, rather than deplore each others differences: Again this happens in societies and with individuals, hence sex and verbal communication both being described as intercourse (exchange).

 

* This is where religion and nomadic life crossover in my opinion - simplicity through movement (going to heaven / moving on).

[pagetheoracle]

Laurie, I've just remembered that there was a BBC News 24 report on Iraq that disclosed a different side to the main news on this subject. A sheikh was interviewed, who said this wasn't a case of Islamic extremists attacking the legitimate government but the people revolting against a corrupt government. It also interviewed an ex-soldier who was allowed to surrender and go home when captured which contrasts with the beheadings thrown at the public via ordinary news reporting.

 

You might also be interested in these points I put in a letter to a newspaper in The UK:-

 

Both sides are as bad as each other in Syria - it makes you want to bang their heads together like warring kids. Friends part in peace - enemies come together in war (accept the truth or try to hide it).

 

The solution to the Syrian crisis is obvious. Instead of a two sided argument, backed by one or other of the superpowers, there should be a UN intervention to push the combatants apart, using American and Russian troops as 'peace-keepers,' not war-mongers. If both sides in the Syrian conflict are as bad as each other, then what is needed is heavy handed intervention by big brother, period.

 

Violence comes, not from not caring enough but from caring too much.

Edited July 18, 2014 by pagetheoracle

[pagetheoracle]

You might also like to read response by Dr Taj Hargey, director of the Muslim Education Centre, to women wearing the burkah in the UK (Daily Mail, 17th July) because he sees that as suppression and disenpowerment of women in the UK; which discloses that all conflict is based on fear of the unknown i.e. the new, the different, the strange.  In other words change (breaking the habit of the past, inorder to create a new and tolerant future for us all to live in). 

 

I see anger and speeded up responses, through hurt pride.  I see justified defence as opposed to openess in all this violence.  I see it in my own life so I know it happens with other people - I have learned this lesson the hard way (over 20 years of migraines or 'rage' headaches because I feel life is unfair and that things haven't gone my way:  Cooling down, the truth was revealed that life isn't 'fair' and you cannot force it to go your way.  To mature is to accept that you win some and you lose some as the saying goes and you need to have the good grace to realize this and let go because you are only hurting yourself if you don't as Hamas is doing in Palestine).

[bleeryI]

It seems to me that there will forever be conflicts such as these. Where two sides live so close together yet are so vehemently opposed to the beliefs of the other, there can be no compromise. They could peacefully co exist if one side was not intent on completely wiping out the other, no matter what.

[pagetheoracle]

It seems to me that there will forever be conflicts such as these. Where two sides live so close together yet are so vehemently opposed to the beliefs of the other, there can be no compromise. They could peacefully co exist if one side was not intent on completely wiping out the other, no matter what.

Sadly true.  Two pig headed cultures who won't back down because of pride and whose actions only hurt themselves rather than the others they claim to be attacking (In a boxing ring both opponents get hurt and the one 'least' hurt is called the winner or to quote a t-shirt design of mine that never sold (strange that?) "Wars aren't won, they're survived."

[Gregb]

This youtube animation is perfectly depressing

 

[sanctus]

Pagettheoracle, how could Palestinians invest more in the building of resources? In gaza there are none, they do not get permits to visit family in the WestBank or Israel, so how would they ever get permits to go fetch stuff needed for building resources? I agree that in principle it would be much better, but it would need the cooperation from Israls government...and we all see now (yet again) what is to be expected...