Palestine - Israeli Conflict

[pagetheoracle]

Aptly timed Sanctus.  I watched a BBC news report last night which pointed out that Palestine had lost all its allies bar Qatar (Syria had its own civil war to fight; Iran was worried about the Iraq conflict approaching its borders and the Islamic Brotherhood had been removed, leading to Egypt closing its borders to Palestine).  On top of this Israel had developed an anti-missile system that was over 95% effective, making Hamas's offensive look as futile as it was, compared to The Israeli counter offensive.  It also showed that Israel's territory was well farmed, where there was no sign of agricultural activity within the perimeters of The Gaza strip.  In this situation, if I was Hamas I would be suing for peace and making Israel my ally, in order to survive.

 

This leads me to two questions:-

 

One, are there any Palestinians living within Israel's borders and if so, what percentage of their total population?

 

Two, having watched "The Honourable Lady," on BBC Television which covers this subject, is it true that Palestines infrastructure was built by the Israeli's as this fictional series claimed (water, sewerage, electricity etc)?

[pagetheoracle]

Eclogite, slightly off-topic but I can't seem to contact you privately for some reason.  Your signature - I'd say it's more like Inspector Clouseau in the film "A Shot in The Dark," where Peter Sellers says "I believe everything and I believe nothing," meaning he accepts something may be true but he also accepts it might not be, so won't act on it until he finds out what the actual truth is.  Like this entire thread it is about sifting through what people 'say' is true and weighing it up against the evidence of what you 'see.'  Like I said about the Palestinian spokesman who said he wanted to develop Palestine, to its best advantage, firing rockets simply does not lead to this - quite the reverse.

 

Walking down the river this morning and having to cut brambles back to get through some places, I didn't think the plants were my enemies, just doing what they had to, to survive and spread their life forms.  As with Palestine, it's just evolution in action, nothing personal.  I think most conspiracy theories miss this because they have a sense of injustice which implies there is such a thing as justice in this situation and scientifically there isn't.  It is just an attempt to win over people to one political belief or another, rather than accept simple facts that ignore such game playing (See 'Games People Play' by Eric Berne, published in 1964 and then apply all this to society rather than individuals)

[sanctus]

Yes there are many Palestinians living inside Israel. Percentage I do not know, but enough that I met some in Norway.

 

Wrt to your yo point of making Israel an ally:

There needs to be a will from Israels side for it too: 67 seven years of occupation, repression, land grabbing, denial of rights, etc show well how strong the will is.

 

I really like this article:
http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.606042?v=97DF39BC9CD0B755200C8151A9578759
 

it just shows whatever you think of Hamas' ways (which I condemn, but can understand why, after 67 years and also nonviolent trials, they feel that rockets are the only way...) that what they actually ask, the conditions for a ceasefire, is just a normal and dignified life. A quote from the linked article:

"These conditions are civilian; the means of achieving them are military, violent and criminal. But the (bitter) truth is that when Gaza is not firing rockets at Israel, nobody cares about it. Look at the fate of the Palestinian leader who had had enough of violence. Israel did everything it could to destroy Mahmoud Abbas. The depressing conclusion? Only force works."

[pagetheoracle]

I was close to agreeing with your points Sanctus but last night I saw episode four of 'The Honourable Lady,' which reminded me that Abbas's party lost an election to Hamas that America insisted they have as part of a previous peace settlement.  Funnily enough the BBC news mentioned that thousands of Palestinians living in Israel had protested about the continued attacks on Gaza, so while it didn't mention numbers it's obviously not in the hundreds.

 

The people shown in the newscast looked fit and healthy as well as well clothed, so it's not as though they are starving to death like in some African conflicts, where food and medical aid is stopped by the insurgents.  They obviously managed to get rockets passed the blockade and had men healthy enough to build tunnels into Egypt (Well constructed as the newscast disclosed).  Yes the Egyptian blockade has affected the civilian population but aren't they always the ones to suffer?  The news also said that Hamas was losing support among the population.  I don't know if this is true or not but it might explain this offensive as a last ditch attempt to retain credibility amongst its people.

 

The article was good but the resulting blockade could simply be interpreted as Israel tightening its grip on people who won't work with it, in the same way guards / police try to restrain people who are resisting them.

Edited July 25, 2014 by pagetheoracle

[LaurieAG]

Pagetheoracle, 

 

The article was good but the resulting blockade could simply be interpreted as Israel tightening its grip on people who won't work with it, in the same way guards / police try to restrain people who are resisting them.

 

You could also interpret any atrocity by any occupying army in human history in the same way.

[pagetheoracle]

Pagetheoracle, 

 

 

You could also interpret any atrocity by any occupying army in human history in the same way.

You could because this is how government works - suppression of expression

 

I think this is simply a clash of cultures.  My wife through her job and a friend who lived in London, both said the same thing about Muslims - they don't mix unlike other cultures coming to the UK.  Like The Jews they believe they are the chosen people and of course they'll wipe each other out to prove it.  This doesn't mean there aren't individuals who fight this attempt to enforce conformism as for instance the Pakistani girl (Malala Yousafzai) who is fighting for female education and was shot in the face for her defiance (Like female genital circumcision, this has nothing to do with Islam, no more than women wearing black clothing from head to toe, with only their eyes exposed) or scientists that see no conflict with being a Muslim and practicing science (I hope there is some around as I know their are Christians who have this attitude with their religion and in the Middle Ages it was Islam that flew the flag of science when Christianity abandoned what the Ancient Greeks and Romans had discovered).  It is like Christianity incorporating pagan festivals, just to encourage conversion.  This really all boils down freedom of expression and free will i.e. the right to be an individual versus the attempt to force people to obey certain rules and regulations (fear).  As has been said before this is where science and philosophy* splits from politics and religion - the right to think and discover something new, rather than be bogged down in the old; the former is interested in the future, the latter obsessed with the past:  The only thing we truly fight is our own ignorance - in other words we stay stupid by hiding in fear behind closed borders of our countries or our minds.  Religion does have something to offer us but it should not fear its children leaving home and starting a new life based on its own reasons.

 

*What is needed is more scientific doubt and the search for what works, rather than knee jerk reactions into fight or flight mode (Thought stops action - action stops thought) i.e. the belief that you are right and everybody else is wrong (ego defense - in other words this isn't a religious or even a political problem in reality but a psychological one, hiding behind both these excuses for attacking others, rather than stopping, turning inwards and examining your own consciences, to find your part in all this i.e. adult responsibility, which means following things through, so that you can build trust, rather than abandonment, which means violence and I don't trust you because I don't trust myself to act in a mature manner).  Fantasy is fine when you are dealing with entertainment but as adults we have to deal with the facts, not how we would like things to be in our version of the perfect world, which is usually ego based).

Edited July 26, 2014 by pagetheoracle

[pagetheoracle]

Last night I saw a BBC reporter in a hospital or UN building, being used by Hamas to fire rockets into Israel (The reporter asked one of the civilians why he cheered every time a rocket was fired from the building, he said what else do you expect me to do?).  The night before another report featured an interview with a Hamas leader who said it was nonsense that they were firing rockets from schools and hospitals, and that they were being fired from the tunnels they built.  The first casualty of war is truth and this just proved it. On Facebook I also a Palestinian used as a human shield, so it is not one side or the other but both that are lying and suffering for their lies (or at least hiding behind them).

 

It's like David and Goliath or the charge of The Light Brigade during The Crimea and as sad as the scene in 'Glory' (film starring Denzel Washington and Morgan Freeman), where the troops charge into the rebel dugout and are wiped out by a canon blast they weren't expecting*.  To quote my own insights into the emotion of the situation, this is inevitable in its own way.

 

Depression is revolt. It is seeing your presence as being totally ineffective. It leads to loss of confidence and withdrawal from a world that ignores you and treats you as unimportant i.e. of no consequence and because of this , you no reason to stay, let alone look after yourself and your environment (abandonment of the world around you / neglect of the self).

 

 

Positive emotion makes us want to live (joy, happiness, love, a sense of freedom) and is constructive. Negative emotion makes us want to die i.e. suicidal (hate, revenge, guilt, shame, feelings that life is unfair) and are destructive.

 

In fiction the hero always survives and nobody innocent gets hurt but sadly real life is different because reality doesn't take prisoners and is a hard teacher.  Bombs blow you to bits and bullets kill you.  In childhood games you get shot but get up again after the game is over but not so in real life. "Games People Play" by Eric Berne, discloses the sad political and social games people play to the detriment of their lives and who can stop it in reality?

 

* As in 'Cool Hand Luke,' where George Kennedy tries to get Paul Newman to stay laying down and accept he's lost the fight, in the end he's forced to deliver a knockout blow, to stop the bloodbath continuing.  Hamas doesn't believe it has lost the fight, so keeps on fighting.  If it gave into despair at the destruction caused to its own people ("They created a wasteland and called in peace" Tacitus), it might stop fighting and start healing its wounds instead.  Anger and self-belief is driving it on, desolation at its losses to its civilian population, would stop it ("There is nothing sadder than a battle lost, than a battle won" Wellington).

Edited July 27, 2014 by pagetheoracle

[LaurieAG]

In fiction the hero always survives and nobody innocent gets hurt but sadly real life is different because reality doesn't take prisoners and is a hard teacher.  Bombs blow you to bits and bullets kill you.  In childhood games you get shot but get up again after the game is over but not so in real life. "Games People Play" by Eric Berne, discloses the sad political and social games people play to the detriment of their lives and who can stop it in reality?

 

Do you remember the Alamo? John Wayne starred and directed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_surrender#Surrender_at_discretion

It was also seen at the Battle of the Alamo, when Santa Anna asked Jim Bowie and William B. Travis for unconditional surrender. Even though Bowie wished to surrender unconditionally, Travis refused, retaliated by firing a cannon at Santa Anna's army, and wrote in his final dispatches:

The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword, if the fort is taken — I have answered their demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves proudly from the walls — I shall never surrender or retreat.^[8]

 

Can you tell me what the King James bible gives as the recipe for obtaining a 'promised land' and then provide some other examples of how this recipe has been applied in practice? 

[pagetheoracle]

Do you remember the Alamo? John Wayne starred and directed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_surrender#Surrender_at_discretion

 

Can you tell me what the King James bible gives as the recipe for obtaining a 'promised land' and then provide some other examples of how this recipe has been applied in practice? 

 I do remember The Alamo, even though I'm English (I saw the film and remember some of the history from a documentary on it).  Do you mean that God gave Palestine to The Israelites?  If that is what you mean as I said earlier, I don't think anybody 'owns' the land and to say that is just a justification for a land grab in the same way America carried out with the native peoples ("The White Man only made once promise - that he would take the land and he took it" Red Cloud). 

Edited July 28, 2014 by pagetheoracle

[sanctus]

You know this sentence flowing all over the net "Hamas uses civilians as shields" and being repeated by so many is quite stupid. They do not really have a choice if they want to fire rockets: Gaza is 360 km^2 (=15 km * 24 km) and "home" to 1 816 000 people this corresponds to 5044.44444 per square kilometer or 0.5 per square hectometer (=100m). I assume that the size of explosions are >= 100 hectometers, so it implies that for any target Israel chooses there is a >50% chance of hitting a palestinian.
This numbers did not include that there might places on the surface of Gaza where there is no way to go to, which would only increase the density of the population in a target area...

[LaurieAG]

Do you mean that God gave Palestine to The Israelites?  If that is what you mean as I said earlier, I don't think anybody 'owns' the land and to say that is just a justification for a land grab in the same way America carried out with the native peoples ("The White Man only made once promise - that he would take the land and he took it" Red Cloud). 

 

I'm not particularly religious and am aware that there is (fortunately) little archaeological evidence for the events that were claimed to have taken place in the KJ bible. Unfortunately many who condone the current non symmetric death tolls in Gaza have a different opinion and attribute 'original' ownership on this basis.

 

The point you miss is that nobody promised the Palestinians anything, their land was annexed and taken without their permission (or compensation) and given to others (why would that occur?).

[pagetheoracle]

I'm not particularly religious and am aware that there is (fortunately) little archaeological evidence for the events that were claimed to have taken place in the KJ bible. Unfortunately many who condone the current non symmetric death tolls in Gaza have a different opinion and attribute 'original' ownership on this basis.

 

The point you miss is that nobody promised the Palestinians anything, their land was annexed and taken without their permission (or compensation) and given to others (why would that occur?).

To paraphrase Ramsey MacDonald, the English Prime Minister "This isn't war, this is suicide."

 

In answer to your second point is, it wasn't exactly given but taken by the Jews after the second world war.  Like the American Indians and other native people colonized, the Western Juggernaut just ran over them and The Israelis now fall into that category because of the technological civilization they have taken up and the organization they have too.  As was posted on this site a few years ago, an advanced civilization of any kind is always bad news for a less technologically based one. 

 

Love unites - hate separates

 

https://www.facebook.com/unify/photos/a.517823741562555.122439.517818901563039/818955141449412/?type=1&theater

 

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/395964992211016823/

 

No man is an island,

Entire of itself,

Every man is a piece of the continent,

A part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea,

Europe is the less.

As well as if a promontory were.

As well as if a manor of thy friend's

Or of thine own were:

Any man's death diminishes me,

Because I am involved in mankind,

And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;

It tolls for thee

(John Donne)

 

If Israel thought of itself this way it would take its losses on the chin, not inflict more pain and anguish on others because it is not only hurting individuals in the world but humanity as an organism as well

Edited July 30, 2014 by pagetheoracle