How Long Until We Could Make A Real Sword Art Online (sao) Nerve Gear Type Device

[Darkrepulser]

Hello all sorry to be a bother,just a quick query, I'm aware this is slightly irrelevant to the focal point of the participants of this thread currently but curiosity had arose within me whilst observing previous discussions and I began to ponder about which method would be most efficient to replicate VR emotions/hormone induced bodily affects, especially considering the fact that there is no uniform reaction amongst individuals to certain feelings (some sweat when experiencing anxiety, others may cry etc). I was thinking that a possible start would be to create radioisotopes of epinephrine and the atomic composition of dopamine, insert them into the brain (adrenal glands) and observe the path these hormones take when subjects experience a range of emotions (probably immense expenditure for all of that and I don't really know if anyone would be completely willing to partake in such tests). Whilst this isn't very practical any sort of advice, suggestions or feedback is greatly appreciated!

[Shodan]

Hello everyone.

 

I've been inactive on this particular forum for a few months, but I'll try to get everyone writing this up to speed with a little research that has been done in the recent 3 months or so.

First of all, we have a forum on Lefora, geminigear.lefora.com, you can read the public section but most of the forum is closed to keep it neat.

 

About reading motor cortex activity with EEG

We have purchased the Emotiv EPOC+ device with the Research license (which gives access to raw EEG data), and have run a series of experiments with it. The CEO of Emotiv Research group, Geoff Mackellar, has registered in this group, and later provided some guidance when I was asking naive and maybe not so naive questions on Emotiv's forum (http://emotiv.com/forum/forum4/topic4544/messages/)

 

So far we have collected several sets of EEG data from various activities, both repetitive and discrete. Here is a sample of how the EEG data from squeezing one's left hand looks through Weka Explorer (a data mining framework):
http://puu.sh/hentR/badc6ae38f.png
Even without any additional filtering or correlation analysis between the 8 channels - one can see spikes of about ~100 uV amplitude that happen each time I squeeze a rolled up towel in my left hand. At this point it would be rather straightforward to create a BCI that can recognize one command like this.

 

We also have EEG data from other activities (squeezing right hand in a symmetrical way, and lifting right arm up above the head. That data has not yet been processed though. I expect the spikes from left/right activities to be substantially different, because the motor cortex is more or less symmetric - the right side of the body is controlled by the left side of the brain, and vice versa. Here is a map of the motor cortex, where the red area correspond to the fingers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Human_motor_map.jpg

As you can see, the area is significantly off-center of the brain, meaning that motor activity for left and right hands would be coming from substantially distinct channels of the EPOC.

 

@CraigD

 

In short, EEGs and the “brainwave” interpretation of their signals is, I think, a dead end/no starter technology for achieving a device like the NerveGear.

 

It's true that the motor cortex is severely overlapping, and there is only so much resolution one can get from electrodes that are on the surface of the head. However, I think it may still be possible to recognize up to a dozen or so distinct commands in real-time, using the existing EPOC device.

 

Our main focus as of now is creating a software that could be used for sending 5-10 commands, and thus it will be enough to play a SAO-like VRMMORPG any game which is conventionally played with 5-10 buttons of the keyboard ;-)

 

So far our public opinion researcher has surveyed over 100 people about their opinion on invasive VR (yes, this was a long shot) of various demographics and concluded that there are enough supporters of even invasive VR technology.

 

Our next survey will be to assess the market and potential target audience of such a EPOC-based product, but this is a project of its own.

 

 

About invoking controlled body paralysis, and "writing" artificial perception data to neurons

 

There was some research done on this topic as well.

So far low-intensity focused ultrasound seems like a promising technology. It is researched for anaesthetic purposes, but it can be used to paralyze motor neurons as well.

Also, it might be possible to use focused ultrasound to simulate artificial body position, and movement. Sound was successfully transmitted into the inner ear (it may sound funny, aka "sound used to transmit sound" but one should understand that the "carrier" ultrasound was of 0.5 - 3 MHz, and lies in an entirely different layer of the spectrum than the "signal" sound, i.e. music, which is 1-10 kHz - and was delivered directly into the inner ear, bypassing the normal way that sound goes into the ear). Ultrasound can be focused on areas as small as 1 mm² inside the brain at arbitrary depth. It is currently used to ablate (blast to bits, simply speaking) brain tumors but, at a much lower energy - it can be used to evoke signals within such areas of the brain, as well as block motor neurons.

 

 

Creating a full-time research team

This research on paralysis and writing to the brain is highly experimental, our research is mainly reading articles.

 

However, with using EEG to read the brain and recognize a few simple commands we have some results of our own, and are thinking about creating an official company. I have yet to research the target audience of our potential product, and I would like to hear from any people who have startup and/or business investment experience.

We have a great example of ascension in front of us: Emotiv. But copying their strategies will only take us so far, and we still need someone with business experience to be in charge.

 

If you would like to join our team, please send a resume to [email protected]

We are not yet an official company but I would really like to keep it professional - this is not a SAO fan club, this is to be a R&D team, so I expect only people with relevant skills and/or experience to apply:

• Computer Scientists, especially Data Analysts. I dare to say am one but more is better.
• IT people - we need a professional website and IT infrastructure, with SQL databases and stuff. Lefora is our very temporary base for the time being, and it's already insufficient. We have a couple people now, they might need help with getting the website up and running.
• Neurophysiology specialists - duh :-) These are hard to find though. Most are already busy in academia or medical corporations.
• Business Management aka people with MBAs
• Public Relations people aka PR

 

@CraigD - I'd love to have you on our team! Your posts on this forum back in Jan, Feb were very informative, and it looks you know a lot more than many of us about this topic!

Edited May 24, 2015 by Shodan

[CaelesMessorem]

@Shodan:

Glad to see someone's acting on ideas rather than just throwing them around like the rest of us :D It really is exciting to see reasearch progressing on such potentially world-changing material. As far as the mentioning of MBAs, I'm currently a sophomore in college working towards a major in Business Management with a minor in Entrepreneurship. If I ever find myself in a position to be of assistance to your research once I've at least gotten a Bachelor's, I would love to be a part of this. Until then (or if things don't go as planned), good luck!

 

@CraigD:

I agree with Shodan about you being very knowledgeable on a variety of the subjects discussed in this topic, no question about it. I'm sure that if you agreed to help out with the research, your insight would be invaluable to their team.

[SuperMitchLOL]

http://www.futuretimeline.net/21stcentury/2039.htm#full_immersion_virtual_reality

 

I found this post very interesting, looking at nanobots as minimally invasive way towards the neurons in their brain responsible for visual, auditory and other senses. So similar full dive VR like in SAO would be possible. Even this brings up many questions because this technology is years away,from mapping the Neural pathways of the brain  allowing to send messages to the brain e.g Game Coding,or bandwidth of data sent to reduce latency and allow for lots of data transmission. 

 

Love what u guys are doing keep it up :)

[PyrUmbreon456]

I have a few questions, bit off topic though...

 

Firstly, could an EMP be used after the signal from the brain was read, to stop it reaching the body?

Secondly, what about PTSD, from witnessing murders, as this would be much more personal than say, GTA V or COD, which are on a screen?

And finally, while ahead of this post, what about the flying mechanic witnessed in ALO, would that be possible? Because even Kirito questions the possibility to control something you don't have, and the brain, (Far as I know) has no way to communicate wanting to move wings.

 

Sorry that these questions are off topic, but I want to learn more, and here is the best place.

[TheCrimsonReaper]

well...think of it this way all of us have only watched the anime we don't know what was in the nerve gear... and i highly doubt when they made it they said lets protect this from an EMP blast and anyways you really wouldn't want to EMP a whole city just to free everyone out of Sword Art Online because think of the movie matrix they couldn't use the EMP blast if they were still in the matrix it probably would have fried their brain now on the murders and such say yes this research team and other research teams and my research (since im solo with my brother on this basically...) all pull through and we all together then break the code of interfacing with a computer from your mind and make a Nerve Gear prototype and the Sword Art Online as its first game i highly doubt that the creators namely us and a huge group of people doing the creation and such would make it the exact same way as Sword Art Online as in you know getting locked in the game and dieing in the game you die in real life... so even if its more personal because you are legitimately fully immersed in the game whoever you kill will still respawn and such so no PTSD and with the wings part my quick theory that i just thought of when i read that part of your question... for one (as far as i know) the brain is also very adaptive that's sometimes how weird habits are made your brain adapted to doing that all the time and so when your fully immersed in the game all of a sudden ( when leafa teaches him to control his wings without the need of a controller and by himself and all that ) maybe in a way the brain saw the program for flying and such and said this body has wings and that's why leafa said basically (imagine you have virtual bones and muscles here and use them for your wings) and when he did that he was learning/training his mind and making his brain think it actually had bones and muscles their for his wings and that's how he moved them 

 

so i hope i helped PyrUmbreon456 have a nice night

[CrunchyMation]

I find this very interesting and would like to join the discussion. I would like to bring up the sub topic on how to actually create the games themselves. In the science fiction anime, Sword Art Online, they create the VR world using polygons. Polygons, in other words, a collection of coordinates and surfaces, the digital data. Polygons are used in computer graphics to compose images that are 3-D in appearance.

 

Could this method of rendering be probable for the creation of games such as Sword Art Online and other VRMMORPG

[CaelesMessorem]

@PyrUmbreon456:

  EMPs would likely not be favorable as a method of signal interception as it has an adverse effect on eletrical devices (like the VR rig you would be wearing).

  As far as PTSD, I think it would come down to how the players feel the interactions in game compare to those of real life, as well as how death would be portrayed in games. If your friends die next to you in a game, and lets say they shatter or disappear like in the SAO series, I think it'd be safe to say that it wouldn't necessarily have a negative effect on you (if there was no chance of them physically dying). You know that they're alright and that they have a chance to be brought back, respawn, etc. If you were to actually die like the plot of SAO, that would be more likely to trigger a form of PTSD.

  Lastly, I think flying would have to be approached first based on the rig and how it works, and then from there based on how the game works in relation to the rig. SAO essentially depicts a perfect read/write machine, so to be able to extend your senses from an actual spot on your back to a virtual pair of wings only seems possible with NerveGear. It would likely be a while before the rigs we create would acheive that level of precision and accuracy.

 

@CrunchyMation:

  I think the method of development for games or software would depend entirely on the specs of the device used for VR, as well as what art style the game would be going for.

[CaelesMessorem]

   After doing a bit more digging I found that my initial understanding of nueronal signals was wrong. Previously, I thought signals sent by neurons were "encoded" so to speak, by which I mean each individual signal contained the necessary information to be read in its entirety, similar to signals in electrical devices. I now know that signals are not digital in nature, but are rather interpreted based on a number of different things:

- Action Potential: the electrical pulse resulting from the de-polarization of the neuronal membrane due to influx/ outflux of ions in the neuron

- Specialized Sensory Cells/ nerves: certain nerves are seneitive to specific kinds of stimuli, and as such only transmit signals regarding that sensation

- Strength of stimuli

- Stimuli Intensity: measured by the frequency which electrical pulses occur (pulses per second)

- Signal Pathway

- Targeted destination of the brain

Signals are also split apart and reintegrated into new signals depeding on what information is contained. Essentially, the longer it takes to read a signal, the less likely it is to be accurate as the signal becomes too "abstracted".

 

   All this brings me to my questions:

- Is it best to intercept a signal early as that would be when it is at its strongest/ clearest, or is it best to wait until all the information has been divided and sent to the correct areas of the brain for the most accurate representation of the signal, meaning the brain has sorted through the information from the initial signal and has generated the correct response?

 

- Would it be best to read/ write signals directly to neurons, or to the areas of the brain which the signals are sent to?

 

- If it's best to go directly through the neurons, which section of the neuron would be best between the dendrites (receives signals from other neurons), the axon (the path which new signals are sent to other neurons) or the soma ("metabolic control center/ manufacturing and recycling plant")?

 

Signal interpretation from senses

 

Distinguishing Stimuli

 

Basic neuron and neuronic signaling info

[Zeezee]

Hello, 20 year old Design student here from the UK who has recently completed a project of gaming immersion. 

I'm just offering us to take a step back here and perhaps suggest some preliminary solutions to the issue of our technology. Although my speculations cannot parallel the fictional immersion of SAO, It is important to do what we can with what we have in order to move forward.

 

There is a lot of talk of re-writing brainwaves, or intercepting the nervous system, it is great to speculate these things but as of yet the limitations are too extreme to apply to a gaming environment. Let's look at it this way, if such technology was currently existent/affordable we would be using it medically as a standard procedure. I say this as my mother has had a damaged nerves in her brain for 30 years and there is no such machine to help.

 

HOWEVER, the brain is easily tricked and even with the advances of the Oculus Rift technology I feel over the next few years there will be movement towards a total immersion experience. I would very much so want to be apart of this movement.

 

My research has revealed that a feeling of total immersion in theory could be currently applied visually and somatically(=touch).

This, however would require a certain isolation from 'the real'.

In the 1970s a psychological experiment revealed that a total deduction of your sense sends you insane after extended periods of time causing the brain to create it's own visions /sounds and sensations. (one subject could feel herself getting hit with bb-gun bullets, another subject reported he could see nothing but dogs) Source- http://preview.tinyurl.com/8j236c3

 

Additionally, a less brutal approach to psychology and the senses in the brain can simply be seen with exercises like this fake-hand trick.

 

This is important knowledge!

 If the brain can create it's own stimuli then it is possible to suggest that we need to take a slight psychological approach to our Nerve Gear.

 

Of course, it is now illegal in most countries to conduct experiments like these again, however similar and more user-friendly tests need to be conducted using perhaps a powerful Oculus Rift, clothing articles that soften your senses in reality and a strongly immersive game.  With A strong Visual and Audial input it could theoretically suggest we can control the brains capacity to create it's own stimuli.

Minimally this could create a sensation of touch, which is more than what we currently have, simulated smell and taste will naturally be incredibly harder to achieve.

---

 

Again apologies if this seems disheartening in the sense of the real thing, I only wish to offer possible steps forward from where we currently are. I truly want to see this happen in my lifetime. I wonder if anyone even read all of this haha!

Thanks,

Z

Edited May 13, 2015 by Zeezee

[Blueleaf54]

Ok, so this is my first post. I'm just going to say, I'm 14. I was reading every single comment and reply for hours and came to think of a possible solution. I was talking with my father and I came across an idea. Maybe instead of probing the brain with an intrusive procedure, you could administer Rocuronium to prevent muscle movement and program the helmet, the NerveGear if you will, to administer it every 180 minutes. This prevents your real life body from moving. Then, when you cannot move, I was thinking up a prototype machine that reads the synapses' electrical movements. So when your brain sends the signal to move a muscle, the Rocuronium will stop the muscle, but the electric pulse will still be there. The machine will read the input, of where it is and how strong it is, and send it as output into the VR avatar. The only problem I have come to is putting the player into a comatose-like state where the brain functions normally off the VR stimuli while ignoring real life stimuli.

 

I think this is a great idea, but I would love if someone corrected me.

[Blueleaf54]

There is no need to put oneself in a camatose state, instead there has been research done into calcium depletion in the chemical synapses. That will cause the cessation of the function of the chemical synapses. How? ion-selective membranes. there has been research on this. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3223285/ 

 

P.S. sorry for being late to the conversation.

P.S.S. I propose a research team being created for the sole purpose of furthering the concept of 'Virtual Reality', on the fact of the many practical applications it has, especially in the areas of education, medicine, entertainment and some miltairy uses. contact me at 'simroh2108' in skype. 

P.S.S.S. I have more research with me, and i would like someone to help me access certain studies within university databases.

 

Just asking, if they aren't in a comatose state or something close to, how would our brain interpret the real life stimuli AND the VR stimuli together? Wouldn't that make the mind confused and generate a scenario where both could be happening simultaneously?

[CraigD]

Welcome to hypography, Zeezee :) Thanks for the min-biography - please feel free to start a topic in the introductions forum to tell us more about yourself, your history, ambitions, etc.

 

There is a lot of talk of re-writing brainwaves, or intercepting the nervous system, it is great to speculate these things but as of yet the limitations are too extreme to apply to a gaming environment.

I’ve a similar intuition, not only because of the huge technical challenges of brain-computer interfaces like those we’re discussing here, but because of the history of consumer of various technologies. Even technologies commonly available today, such as realistic pointing devices (eg: video game guns, motions sensitive controllers) and stereoscopic 3-D displays, though well-supported in many popular video games, tend to be rejected in favor or familiar 2-D display and handheld, non-motion-sensitive controllers. If deeply immersive VR game technology was miraculously achieved overnight, I suspect it might receive a similar reception: brief popularity as a novelty, then relegation to a small niche market.

 

More discussion of alternatives to true “read and write” computer BCI can be found in the thread Alternatives to Nervegear-Type devices.

 

Let's look at it this way, if such technology was currently existent/affordable we would be using it medically as a standard procedure. I say this as my mother has had a damaged nerves in her brain for 30 years and there is no such machine to help.

Helping people with brain and other nerve-related diseased and injuries is on the best-funded forefront of BCI research. I hope this research yields accessible therapies that help you mother.

[Blueleaf54]

Just asking, if they aren't in a comatose state or something close to, how would our brain interpret the real life stimuli AND the VR stimuli together? Wouldn't that make the mind confused and generate a scenario where both could be happening simultaneously?

well. the depletion of Ca2+ in the chemical synapses will stop any stimuli from the real world. To a large extent. therefore, only the VR world will be interpreted by the brain. that is, if Ca2+ blocked parts of the nervous system. I am not sure how that will effect cranial nerves though... some of them are kind of important. aka. keeps the heart beating.

 

Maybe I should just stop posting lol. I am only 14 after all.

[CraigD]

Welcome to Hypography, Blueleaf! :) Please feel free to start a topic in the introductions forum to tell us something about yourself.

 

Maybe instead of probing the brain with an intrusive procedure, you could administer Rocuronium to prevent muscle movement and program the helmet, the NerveGear if you will, to administer it every 180 minutes. This prevents your real life body from moving. Then, when you cannot move, I was thinking up a prototype machine that reads the synapses' electrical movements. So when your brain sends the signal to move a muscle, the Rocuronium will stop the muscle, but the electric pulse will still be there. The machine will read the input, of where it is and how strong it is, and send it as output into the VR avatar. The only problem I have come to is putting the player into a comatose-like state where the brain functions normally off the VR stimuli while ignoring real life stimuli.

I think that’s a good and clever idea.

 

For all of us who aren’t MDs, pharmacologists, or quick enough studies in the subject, here’s some backgroupd on rocuronium:

is drug that blocks neurotransmission in a special class of synapse, the neuromuscular junction, which connects nerves and muscles. Like most large molecules, rocuronium can’t pass the blood brain barrier, so unless you inject it directly into the brain, it has no effect there. So it’s not an anesthetic – it doesn’t cause unconsciousness – but rather causes temporary, partial paralysis of skeletal muscles. Because the heart is innervated differently than skeletal muscles, it’s not dangerously effected. The diaphragm is, however, so when given an effective dose of rocuronium, the patient must be kept alive with artificial respiration.

 

Because most people would be frightened by being paralyzed, they’re usually made unconscious with another drug before rocuronium is administered. Together, these drugs make surgery easier by not just making the patient unconscious, but also stilling the muscles.

As Blueleaf suggests, in a fulldive VR system, using a paralytic drug like rocuronium could allow the system to measure nerve activity not within the brain, which is difficult to reach, but at the neuromuscular junctions, which is easier to reach.

 

I think this is a great idea, but I would love if someone corrected me.

The big drawback I can imagine with such a system is that paralytic drugs like rocuronium don’t block heat and touch sensitive or all proprioception nerves, so even if the sense of sight and sound were effectively supplied with computer-generated VR via earpieces and eye-covering screens, the player would still feel as if they were laying or sitting. Their perception of the position of their limbs and other body parts wouldn’t match that of their virtual, in-game representations.

 

Another problem is that drugs like rocuronium have short-term side effects, a major one being muscle weakness for days after recovery. They also have long-term side effects. While considered safe for use in anesthesia, which most patient undergo only a few times in their lives, the long-term effects of using them hundreds or thousands of times in ones life haven’t been well studied, and I suspect would be debilitating.

 

Maybe I should just stop posting lol. I am only 14 after all.

No! Keep posting! More important, read, study, and think all you can, so you can learn all you can, and share your ideas on this and other forums.

 

14 is a great age. Neurologically, your brain works much better, thinking quicker, remembering more and longer, than my 55-year-old one.

 

You might find it interesting that the Bourbaki society, an influential group of young (members were required to resign from the society at age 50) mathematicians, believe that you have your best and most creative ideas between the age of 10 and 20, then can only refine them, and by the age of 50, are pretty much useless except as helpers for younger people.

 

Every year of your intellectual life now is super-charged and golden. Don’t waste them!

[Blueleaf54]

well. the depletion of Ca2+ in the chemical synapses will stop any stimuli from the real world. To a large extent. therefore, only the VR world will be interpreted by the brain. that is, if Ca2+ blocked parts of the nervous system. I am not sure how that will effect cranial nerves though... some of them are kind of important. aka. keeps the heart beating.

 

You're right, but depleting calcium ions from neuromuscular junctions would lower the overall level of calcium in the user's body. An organ (I forget which) monitors the blood calcium level. Once it recognizes a low amount it signals to osteoclasts would break apart the bone and refill the bloodstream, thus putting you in danger because of a loop of Calcium-->Low Calcium(no movement)-->Osteoclasts refilling-->Bone mass loss. A user using this method would probably acquire an osteopathic disease such as osteoporosis or worse.

 

I'm still researching about the neuromuscular junctions and proprieceptary sensation, but I believe the key has to do with Suxamethonium chloride. I know this drug only has a duration of 2-6 minutes, but if we could find a way to add a drug to it that increases its life, without being potent enough to harm somebody. I have no clue what category these drugs fall under, if there even is one, but I'm still going to research it.

 

@CraigD, thanks for the support. Should be researching every day from now on. And a question; if you look back in my first post, where I mention a machine, would there be a way to monitor the electrical impulses sent from the brain to the muscles? I've read other posts about rewriting the code and stuff but do you really need to do that? Maybe if we could create a machine, or suit, that monitors the slight electrical impulses from the brain to your muscles and how intense they are, to put it as input into the system and viola! You have movement. Is that accurate at all?

Edited May 16, 2015 by Blueleaf54

[Blueleaf54]

BUT, I don't know if it would affect the proprioceptory nerves.