How Long Until We Could Make A Real Sword Art Online (sao) Nerve Gear Type Device

[Blueleaf54]

@CraigD

Could you be so kind as to explain how Golgi Tendon Organs work?

[eliteshadewind]

So in reading through this topic, there is one concept I'm not understanding the need for. Many persons are still using the terms "Writing to the Brain" which results in the general consensus that its a bad idea which I agree. I dont believe we need to write to the brain to accomplish sensory input.

 

Consider this in comparison:

 

Video Games--

 

Anyone remember old Ultima VII? I used hex editors to cheat that game 1000 ways and I can honestly say that even after learning it well I still broke the game more times than I can count. This is the equivalent to writing to the brain and tbh prolly will have about the same success. Consider this though. In modern day game systems we use memory editors instead. Basically instead of writing to the brain of the game which can break it we just adjust what the game thinks it knows and when we change something outside its limits it tends to auto correct itself through fault protections.

 

Now I will point out I am no biologist and whether or not the human brain has a "fault tolerance system" integrated into it I can only surmise. In any case though why dont we focus on developing a method to trick the mind into writing what we want it to believe itself. 

 

Perception is reality.

 

If you cant move your physical hand then when your virtual hand hits a "solid" object it will be stopped. At that point your mind is already looking for a sensory input to identify what has been made contact with that prevented movement. Fill in the blank. 

Ex: Cold, smooth = smooth metal or maybe ceramic even. If you make it imaged like tile then your mind fills in ceramic and completes the sensory equation for you.

Ex2: Play any good 3D game and walk on a bridge. You hear the sound of wood planks being stepped on by hard boots. Your mind knows you are walking on wood in the game. Now if we go back to my last example. Color the tiles grey and add a 'ting' reverberation to them. Your mind now says hey these are metal tiles.

 

I realize there is a bit more to this but I believe going off this concept would drastically reduce power requirements for calculations and risks involved in sensory input to the brain.

 

Cant wait to read more of what people say on this topic. Everyone keep up the good thoughts, lets see this become reality.

[TheCrimsonReaper]

first... let it be known... on this topic i came up with this theory / setup... within about an hour or 2 of thinking... i am trying to get the walking and moving aspect of Nerve Gear that's atleast what im trying to research...so to start off with where im trying to base my research from their is a company in japan named Cyberdyne  they made a suit that gets wrapped around your legs with a sensor i think a bit higher than your knees is where it goes when the suit is wrapped around your legs and it helps people with disabilities walk so people  who are to old to walk at all paraplegics and so on it helps make them walk the suits name is HAL now here is a link so everyone can see the suit and what is happening and whom i am talking about 

if you watch the video in that link it will help you understand what im talking about... so now that you know the company and everything lets continue i emailed the company telling them who i was where i am from and live and my theory and what i am researching i then asked them if they would share their research for my cause so that it would boost my research forward a few days later i received and email from their CFO Ms.Yuki Hamada this is exactly what she said 

 

Thank you for contacting us.

Regarding your request to have some advice from Dr. Sankai,
because of confidentiality of the cutting-edge product,
we regret to say we cannot provide you some advice.

However, as for BMI research, Center for Cybernics Research of University of Tsukuba
has been conducting closed research.
Thus, if you would like to help people with disabilities with BMI,
getting into Sankai Laboratory of University of Tsukuba might be one option to your future goal.
The Sankai Laboratory is hoping to create Innovative Cybernics System for a ZERO Intensive Nursing-care Society.

Good luck with your academic studies.

Best regards,

Shinji Uga(Mr.)
Director / CFO
CYBERDYNE Inc.
On behalf of Mr. Uga, Ms. Hamada wrote.

 

and so i sent an email back a day later asking that if i were to go to japan the place i wish to live and try to work their would they provide me with a work visa and such so i could continue to work their i am still awaiting an answer...but...all that aside... this is my theory now... what i have thought what i am researching and have put together in a theory for what i am trying to accomplish if i can go to work their and am provided with their research notes or if i have to conduct the research myself i want to get my hands on either theirs or my own research of the signal the brain sends to the legs so you can walk if i can figure that out i want to make a helmet atleast like prototype and when i have done so program it with the research notes... for that signal... and then this is where the main part comes in at... after doing some research  it looks like the CNS (Central Nervous System) sends commands to the PNS (Peripheral Nervous System) then the PNS sends those commands to the rest of the body therefore telling the body what to do... so if i can create an interface like object that will go in the helmet and be probably at the back of your neck assuming we can create the interface to use something like EEG technology for how we see the brain but for this morso to read and understand that the signal to your legs is being sent out... if we can manage ALL of that and when the helmet reads the signal it sends it to say a game engine to walk like pressing W A S D or up down left right on the arrow keys of a keyboard then the next part is simple... if we have to discover the signal ourselves we use the same method we used to discover that signal and use it to discover the signals we use to move our hands fingers feet toes hips torso etc etc... and then if we can accomplish ALL OF THAT make a new prototype programmed with all of the signals we discovered and if successful well... i think it would be safe to say we would have the funding necessary to start researching maybe taste or smell or something if we want to... that is all i have come up with within like i said about an hour or 2 of thinking... only on that part of the stepping stones to achieve a full Nerve Gear...  honestly... i want more people on my team... as of currently i am alone i am the only person on my team that is researching this as freelance i don't have anyone else that is smart enough in this field that i could collaborate with or talk to about or anything of research i would really love if someone who wants to research the same as me right now and and join up with me for a type of team for this... please contact request me on skype reaper.unknown is my name contact request me and we will talk about this and if anyone wants to call me by name i would appreciate it of they called me Reaper that is what i am used to being called and am usually known as but anyways please get back to me as soon as possible i wish to know your thoughts on what i have just posted...have a good day / night i hope to hear from you soon

[CaelesMessorem]

@Blueleaf54: These are pretty abstarct concepts to grasp even for the older posters on this topic. It's a lot of technicalities and a lot of advanced study in difficult fields of research. Just think, if you keep looking into this stuff from now until, say my age (currently 22), you'll be much more knowledgeable than I am about any of this, and if you continue, even moreso. Don't get discouraged! You have more than enough time to learn :)

 

@eliteshadewind:

 

So in reading through this topic, there is one concept I'm not understanding the need for. Many persons are still using the terms "Writing to the Brain" which results in the general consensus that its a bad idea which I agree. I dont believe we need to write to the brain to accomplish sensory input.

 

Consider this in comparison:

 

Video Games--

 

Anyone remember old Ultima VII? I used hex editors to cheat that game 1000 ways and I can honestly say that even after learning it well I still broke the game more times than I can count. This is the equivalent to writing to the brain and tbh prolly will have about the same success. Consider this though. In modern day game systems we use memory editors instead. Basically instead of writing to the brain of the game which can break it we just adjust what the game thinks it knows and when we change something outside its limits it tends to auto correct itself through fault protections.

 

Now I will point out I am no biologist and whether or not the human brain has a "fault tolerance system" integrated into it I can only surmise.

 

Firstly, intrusive methods wouldn't necessarily lead to mind control and thought rewriting, etc. There would naturally be safety implamentations for that exact thing, as well as death preventions and such. I mentioned the idea of using nanoneurons to copy and transmit signals from neurons to a rig, likely a headgear, and from the headgear, convert the signals to binary and send it to your computer, which then converts the binary to commands. Your brain/ body are the controller, the headgear, the processor/ converter and the computer, the console. By utilizing a 3-piece setup, you could double or tripple the preventative measures and checks so nothing harmful reaches your brain.

 

 

...In any case though why dont we focus on developing a method to trick the mind into writing what we want it to believe itself.

 

Perception is reality.

 

If you cant move your physical hand then when your virtual hand hits a "solid" object it will be stopped. At that point your mind is already looking for a sensory input to identify what has been made contact with that prevented movement. Fill in the blank. 

Ex: Cold, smooth = smooth metal or maybe ceramic even. If you make it imaged like tile then your mind fills in ceramic and completes the sensory equation for you.

Ex2: Play any good 3D game and walk on a bridge. You hear the sound of wood planks being stepped on by hard boots. Your mind knows you are walking on wood in the game. Now if we go back to my last example. Color the tiles grey and add a 'ting' reverberation to them. Your mind now says hey these are metal tiles.

 

I realize there is a bit more to this but I believe going off this concept would drastically reduce power requirements for calculations and risks involved in sensory input to the brain.

 

Cant wait to read more of what people say on this topic. Everyone keep up the good thoughts, lets see this become reality.

 

If I am understanding your idea correctly, you're essentially picturing an adaptation of the Crescent Bay by Occulus and all its wannabes (I'm a gamer at heart and Occulus beat the other companies to the punch, hence "wannabes"), which is what I referred to in an earlier post (relocated here) as "Simulated/ Augmented VR". It cuts your senses off and instead floods them with as immersive an experience as possible, from simulating how we see things (range of vision, clarity, detail, differing points of view, etc) to replicating the dynamic way we hear things through noise dulling/ cancelling and utilizing 3d sound (can perceive general direction and location of sound, loudness, clarity, moving closer/ moving away, etc.). I think I've seen mention somewhere of adding that to a suit or exoskeleton to replicate different levels of force and impact as well.

Edited May 19, 2015 by CaelesMessorem

[sumusiko]

Caeles would like to know your opinion, I'm not sure how long you've researched this about and such but still.

 

How far away do you think we are from full dive VR? And if such a thing happend how do you think it would work? Suits? A pod? Or just something connected to your brain/helmet?

[CaelesMessorem]

Hey there sumusiko. I appreciate you asking my opinion on the subject. I'm no expert, but I'll give you what I can.

 

As I mentioned, I am DEFINITELY not an expert in any of the fields of study being used for this research, and as far as this concept goes, I've only been looking into it for about 2 months, though like most everyone else here I've been curious about it since I saw the show Sword Art Online.

 

   I think that we are still years away from even having a base prototype to use, and farther from having a refined consumer product. That being said, if people are as passionate about this tech as we are, I have no trouble saying that I think we will see it in our lifetime.

 

   As far as the actual rig goes, it's going to have to be something that is accessible for everyone. A pod would only be good in my opinion becasue it has the potential to provide life support and whatnot should anything go awry. Obviously we would work to prevent that, but after watching the show anyone would be cautious. It would be more likely that the actual rig would be a helmet or headset of some sort, but in the end the actual form the tech will take depends completely on the technology and equipment needed to achieve full dive virtual reality in the first place. If the sensors (or whatever is used) to read the brain have to be larger, that scales the rig design up. If we can make the components smaller, the scale would be smaller, etc. It's all dependant on what the research done by the participants of this topic and elsewhere yields. :)

[Blueleaf54]

EKG’s monitor the electrical pulses from the heart. Athos (liveathos.com) does pretty well at tracking muscular effort, but if we could find a way to analyze the neuromuscular junctions for electrical impulses from the brain, converting quantity and intensity into another electrical current in the form of a signal to the console/headset, all the while maintaining a discreet profile, such as a body suit that the player puts on beforehand, we have it.

 

1. Sleep-like state. (Not figured out. Quite possibly removing the Ca2+ from the junctions, rendering them immovable. As for the actual sleep state, perhaps a form of low frequency wave emitted from the helmet/console designed to hypnotize you into sleep.)
2. Brain sends impulses to muscles to move.
3. Signal is intercepted by the suit, muscles not moving because of sleep-like state.
4. Suit relays the pulses to the console.
5. Console relays them into the game, to the specific parts of the body that your mind tried to move in real life.
6. Logging out. (Not figured out. Perhaps the opposite of signing in.)

[chr12364]

Just wanna point out, if you wanna create something like Sao... I think you would have to settle for something not quite the same. For instance why don't you aim for controlling a computer character with your mind in a game console... Rather than worry about the nerve gear head set. Because at the moment with current technology we haven't even linked or brains to current game consoles or computer... Let alone imprint a alternate computerised world in our minds.

[CaelesMessorem]

chr12364:

   Heya! You are correct in the fact that we don't currently posses such technology to even acheive simple mind based control mechanics (simple in comparison to what we are after anyway), let alone anything more advanced. But then, that's partly why this thread exists. Simply accepting what we have and not looking to what we could have would prevent us from making any sort of advancement. Look at it this way: If we can think it, it can be done. Simple, right? Maybe even too simple. It may not be immediately, but it can be done. We'll leave the introduction of BMI based controls for game consoles to those currently pioneering and breaking through in the Simulated VR world (Occulus and their "competitors"). Though I'm sure there's a topic somewhere on here for that exact same thing. If not, make it! :) That's an equally important and beneficial project in itself with a lot of potential to revolutionize the way we all live.

 

Why make the sky the limit when there's so much more beyond it, you know?

[chr12364]

Yeah I'd like to believe it's possible! I loved the anime and the concept makes u wonder what's possible. It'll have to be a step by step process, probably nerve reactions in video games first... Then imprinting the game in people's minds is probably the hardest part. I wish anyone luck who chooses to spend time on this topic and work it out, im sure there are plenty of us out their who would want to try it!

[sumusiko]

Yeah I'd like to believe it's possible! I loved the anime and the concept makes u wonder what's possible. It'll have to be a step by step process, probably nerve reactions in video games first... Then imprinting the game in people's minds is probably the hardest part. I wish anyone luck who chooses to spend time on this topic and work it out, im sure there are plenty of us out their who would want to try it!

 

 

Well, if there existed a way for you to see the game (like in occulus rift) while being in the sleep like state you wouldn't really need to imprint the game to your brain

[JimSolo]

FullDive tech is not nessecarily a sleep state. Levels of conciousness within the brain can be controlled via BCI controllers, and likely within FullDive, once developed, there will be variables to change the experience for parties. Some parties may respond better to a lower concious stimuli, where as others may be better in a sleep state for their environments.

 

I can't say much more on the subject, not until Prototype 1 is complete (which will be a fully concious 'setup' system, designed to calibrate subsequent prototypes for test subjects).

 

FYI, once the initial systems are created I will have to set up a website and recruit test subjects. My main concern is the legal and political blowback of this technology, since it will be foreign in understanding to any of the higher powers in this society.

 

TL;DR: People are idiots, and I have to deal with it.

 

EDIT: I also wish to apologise for my lack of opening up about the subject, and my lack of posts. The issue is, is that the development of this technology in my little world is very secretive. This is the most public place I have ever mentioned my working on it, since I fear for the safety of the project if I reveal it all. Not only for the reasons I above stated about political and legal blowbacks, but also that there are ~7 billion other people out there who would be very happy to steal my research and turn themselves into millionares.

 

Until the project is at a steady pace of development and I can patent the tech, I have to be quiet about my research.

 

Even then, if I were, I doubt very much most of the people reading these posts even believe I am making progress. Like many others I could be a 12 year old keyboard warrior for all y'all know, making myself sound cool on the interwebz. Once I have solid proof of my work then I might be taken a little more seriously by the public at large.

Edited May 22, 2015 by JimSolo

[Blueleaf54]

FullDive tech is not nessecarily a sleep state. Levels of conciousness within the brain can be controlled via BCI controllers, and likely within FullDive, once developed, there will be variables to change the experience for parties. Some parties may respond better to a lower concious stimuli, where as others may be better in a sleep state for their environments.

 

I can't say much more on the subject, not until Prototype 1 is complete (which will be a fully concious 'setup' system, designed to calibrate subsequent prototypes for test subjects).

 

FYI, once the initial systems are created I will have to set up a website and recruit test subjects. My main concern is the legal and political blowback of this technology, since it will be foreign in understanding to any of the higher powers in this society.

 

TL;DR: People are idiots, and I have to deal with it.

 

EDIT: I also wish to apologise for my lack of opening up about the subject, and my lack of posts. The issue is, is that the development of this technology in my little world is very secretive. This is the most public place I have ever mentioned my working on it, since I fear for the safety of the project if I reveal it all. Not only for the reasons I above stated about political and legal blowbacks, but also that there are ~7 billion other people out there who would be very happy to steal my research and turn themselves into millionares.

 

Until the project is at a steady pace of development and I can patent the tech, I have to be quiet about my research.

 

Even then, if I were, I doubt very much most of the people reading these posts even believe I am making progress. Like many others I could be a 12 year old keyboard warrior for all y'all know, making myself sound cool on the interwebz. Once I have solid proof of my work then I might be taken a little more seriously by the public at large.

I believe you. and btw, id be happy to contact you with information about everything. I'd love to be involved with whatever you have going on.

[CaelesMessorem]

@sumusiko:

   The thing about dreams and the dream state is that your dreams are a combination of a variety of different things, from memories of the same day to memories from years before mixed with wishes, hopes, fears, problems, as well as external stimuli (your body is laying there and wind is felt on your face; this may completely change your dream from something about swimming to you being in a tornado). They're incredibly versatile and are indeed a part of our consciousness, but they're easily influenced as well. The reason I was uncertain about the dream method for this technology is that everyone is different, and can take entirely different stimuli and experiences to get a similar dream, but in the end it's never the same dream. In order for the occulus to create a dream, it would have to discern which stimuli would create certain dreams and then apply them while in a sleep state. This would take the place of the visiual aspect of the device. The problem is not only maintaining the picture shown in your dream, but also being able to apply it to a large amount of people, and then not having your dream completely change when you receive stimuli in response to the activities in the game world. I think it would definitely eliminate the need for all of the invasive stuff if this were a viable method, but until we know more about how our mind produces, utilizes and reacts to dreams, we wouldn't be able to make use of it.

[sumusiko]

FullDive tech is not nessecarily a sleep state. Levels of conciousness within the brain can be controlled via BCI controllers, and likely within FullDive, once developed, there will be variables to change the experience for parties. Some parties may respond better to a lower concious stimuli, where as others may be better in a sleep state for their environments.

 

I can't say much more on the subject, not until Prototype 1 is complete (which will be a fully concious 'setup' system, designed to calibrate subsequent prototypes for test subjects).

 

FYI, once the initial systems are created I will have to set up a website and recruit test subjects. My main concern is the legal and political blowback of this technology, since it will be foreign in understanding to any of the higher powers in this society.

 

TL;DR: People are idiots, and I have to deal with it.

 

EDIT: I also wish to apologise for my lack of opening up about the subject, and my lack of posts. The issue is, is that the development of this technology in my little world is very secretive. This is the most public place I have ever mentioned my working on it, since I fear for the safety of the project if I reveal it all. Not only for the reasons I above stated about political and legal blowbacks, but also that there are ~7 billion other people out there who would be very happy to steal my research and turn themselves into millionares.

 

Until the project is at a steady pace of development and I can patent the tech, I have to be quiet about my research.

 

Even then, if I were, I doubt very much most of the people reading these posts even believe I am making progress. Like many others I could be a 12 year old keyboard warrior for all y'all know, making myself sound cool on the interwebz. Once I have solid proof of my work then I might be taken a little more seriously by the public at large.

 

 

 

I wish you the best, hopefully I'll see you in the news on the future.

 

Don't give up mate, I'm sure fulldive won't be easy at all to do but if you put your mind to it and not quit I'm sure some day you'll be able to do it or get close enough to it.

[cburruss]

what about if we send impulses to the brain to still keep the organs running but then still move in the game

[Birko117]

Hello,

 

They are a lot of time i'am reading this topic and don't write anything because i'am french (And i fear to write very bad ^^).

But see Argus write a message when why not me :D

 

I put all my hope on you :D. I'm 18 years old and i study in programation school, Now i can't be helpful because i start to learn this years, but i hope in 4 or 5 years i can be helpful :D

 

I just want to say one thing is, don't want to have like sao for the prototype, we can put to trash (I don't know how i can say that différent ^^) the smeel and the taste and the sensation of touch if it's very difficult. It's better have it more early and more people can use it, at have it more late and with that 3 thing. Because that 3 thing is not completelly necesary for the game (And after, do the sensation of touch before the smeel, and the smell before the taste ^^)

 

I hope you understand all my post, (or just the holf is good ^^)

 

PS : Is not a little near for start the game ?

It's we don't have the technologie, we have to have the technologie for start the creation of the game no ?

 

Birko117

Edited May 26, 2015 by Birko117