How Long Until We Could Make A Real Sword Art Online (sao) Nerve Gear Type Device

[PyrUmbreon456]

Birko117, I think I got eveything, and agree completely.

 

You think that we should do just sound and sight first, everything else later?

I think that would make it harder for the feeling of Immersion, as none would be strange, and the outside ones would be completely different, unless you have a way of teleporting people, and feeding them, that is also non-intrusive.

 

It is also not to early for the game because games like GTA V took years to make, and if we have the basics changing it is easier than begining from scratch.

 

P.S. If any of this is wrong just correct me, but I am going to try to learn how to program and some neurology, and will help in anyway I can.

[SidewinderTV]

Okay, there are a few points I want to make here.

 

First of all, SOUND is the last issue when it comes to immersion. Why? Well, high quality headphones already have that part covered..

 

Also, let's face it: without proper funding and a real research team, this will not become a reality. Unless some actual research is made and properly recorded, we're not going to get anywhere.

 

A team of bunched-together teenagers and adults from the internet may be able to complete many things such as computer programs or design issues, but this is high level neurology we're talking about. IF we can get the right people interested (and I see some people right here) then we might be able to make it - but it will still take a few years at least.

[jjth39347]

Okay after having read about 7 pages of this topic I'd like to add my 2 cents, first as an avid gamer, second as a computer programmer who works in the medical field, and third as someone who has a prosthetic left eye.

 

There are some serious elephants in the room IMO.

 

 First as a programmer we love making new programs that simplify life, but with that comes the desperate need for security. There is will be a huge problem with hacking in to LAN's whenever this technology becomes available. For starters since this will all have to take place over some kind of server holding game information such as stats, gear, names, passwords, etc. then there will be those who will undoubtedly be able to get around and security measures taken no matter how strong they are, it just takes time.

This will open up doors to actually use people, who are immersed in the game unaware of outside life, such as when in SAO they moved everyone to the hospital without the gamers knowing other than speculation.

One could simply use the write properties that have been discussed here to have their physical body do as they wish (rape, murder, jumping jacks as an example) I hate to bring such dark things to a passion of mine but it is there is we say it or not.

 

Second, I've seen a few people mentioning not needing to write and only have the read function to the FDVR, as someone who has a prosthetic left eye, I have no vision in that eye thus would not be able to enjoy the full effect which is nonexistent for those who have no vision what so ever, not saying that they HAVE to make it for everyone and not just people who are willing to pay the price it's going to cost but I personally believe that technology needed to actually make this project feasible will be coming from medical advances and not dedicated research for VR gaming it will just be adapted for monetary reasons.

 

Third, as far touch and sensation one needs to only do some research on hypnotic influence, the brain senses what it expect to experience or there are many little trick used to trick the brain to feeling something that is not there. I believe that if we were touched by a finger while in a full dive we expect to feel a little warmth and a soft touch as opposed to being cut by a sword, which psychologically would probably be a bad idea, since we would be making our brain think that an arm was getting cut. I'm not saying it will actually be a bad idea I'm just curious in that aspect of physical ramifications of virtual actions.

Science has proven, through the act of medicating that one could trick the body to think it has been going through a strenuous workout and reflecting results. Would being in a full dive constantly running and fighting and various other activities as jumping, our brain would see this as an actual physical happening, which would cause us to get into better shape?

 

I'm probably just rambling at this point.

 

 

 

[CaelesMessorem]

First as a programmer we love making new programs that simplify life, but with that comes the desperate need for security. There is will be a huge problem with hacking in to LAN's whenever this technology becomes available. For starters since this will all have to take place over some kind of server holding game information such as stats, gear, names, passwords, etc. then there will be those who will undoubtedly be able to get around and security measures taken no matter how strong they are, it just takes time.

This will open up doors to actually use people, who are immersed in the game unaware of outside life, such as when in SAO they moved everyone to the hospital without the gamers knowing other than speculation.

One could simply use the write properties that have been discussed here to have their physical body do as they wish (rape, murder, jumping jacks as an example) I hate to bring such dark things to a passion of mine but it is there is we say it or not.

In regards to your first hacking point, you are correct. Never have I played a game, on any platform, that hasn't had an attempted hack or successful hack, regardless of its genre. That's just how this works. But just like it's done now, for games at least, we'd have to leave security for game data and content to the the company that developed the game/ maintains the game server. You could also have other safety measures in place on your computer (assuming that is what the VR rig will be running through) specifically for the VR device. And lastly, you would naturally have protection in the VR rig, but there are times I wonder if an adaptive Security AI would be best as a last line of defense. Only give it access to security functions and isolate it from the read and/or write functions of the rig so that if it were compromised, there wouldn't necessarily be huge reprocussions. Mind you, hacking, AI and reverse engineering are outside my area of expertise, so I can only speculate.

To your second hacking point, remember that regardless of whether the VR device ends up intrusive or unintrusive, both require the body to be still and unresponsive to both sense and motor signals. For now, I can't see a way that someone would be able control the body if the rig is ensuring that signals aren't sent throughout the body.

 

Lastly, in regards to your question about physical ramifications resulting from virtual actions, that's something I may look into. I'll likely have to use the body's reaction to dreams as a base for the research, as that is the closest we have to simulating a VR environment. Luckily since this pertains to the physical body and not the dream state body, the information should be more obtainable and less obscure.

[jjth39347]

What I am referring to in regards to being able to control the physical body is as follows.

 

The program used to read and write may have permissions. But you simply cannot leave it up the whatever inhibitor may be used to isolate mind from body. This may be covered by some security measures but that's what hackers love, the challenge. This is as a registered ethical hacker. 

I'm not trying to keep this from being developed, I'd be one of the first to beta test it given the option and I'd love to help write the software programming needed for this to happen.

Your second point makes no sense to me as far as "having" to be immobile for it to work. In the show, as reference, again they movie the bodies to the hospital at some point. But what I want to point out in this case is sleep walking, this can even occur when in REM sleep. If the physical inhibitor could be over ridden then this would indeed be plausible.

 

That being said, this is just my input on things to take into consideration when developing this technology. As a programmer it is my job to point things like this out, but to also offer my thoughts on a solution.

 

There should be some kind of evacuation protocol in place. Now this may sound weird but it may be the easiest solution. Motorcycles (having owned one) when installed with LoJack will inform the owner when the bike is moved without the key based on GPS. Now we could tie that idea into Bluetooth since it's short ranged and a hell of a lot less bulky hardware. If the body is moved from it stationary position and outside of the Bluetooth range then an in game alert can be sent using the camera and speakers used that someone previously mentioned in the thread. If need be the user will have the option to send an alert to local authorities or to just log out and smack their little brother around a bit.

[CaelesMessorem]

I agree that we can't leave coded security protocol to protect against an action that is specificaly meant to bypass that exact thing. And I also value your input as someone with valuable experience for a project that will end up being very code heavy. I apologize if any of my refutations sound like I'm discrediting your input, as that's not my intent. Some of the things I write just end up worded in a way that can come off as confrontational or dismissive.

 

That being said, I had mad an observation in an earlier post as a correction to my initial assumption that brain signals were digital. I had originally believed that brain signals carried what they needed to be read by the brain in their entirety and carried out, but that wasn't the case. They at first carry excess information depending on what the source of the signal was, and as it travels through your brain via neurons, the signal is broken apart and reformed according to what was in a signal. So for instance, an optical signal may contain different bits of information pertaining to details such as light and shadow, color, spatial positioning, acceleration, textures, etc. But all these pieces of information are not read as one signal. Rather, all those pieces of information are removed from the original signal and merge with information of a similar nature to form a signal addressing that particular type of sensory data, and sent to the corresponding part of the brain for interperatation. What this means as far as body control is that in order for the hacker's commands to even be processed by the brain, they have to be able to be successfully converted from a digital signal containing the necessary motor data to a signal that can be broken apart and reformed as an electro-chemical signal readable by the brain, and then sent to the correct parts of the brain to be carried out. All of that is assuming that there is a write function in the FDVR process, but the more I re-read the posts, the more that I see "writing" as being unnecessary in comparison to the "read" function.

 

Regarding having to be immobile, I apologize for implying that it was suggested for this tech to work. There is no choice in the matter of your body being immobile while diving, because it is physically unable to move. Any senseory or motor functions other than what are required to keep the body alive are not reaching the rest of the body, therefore rendering it immobile. If they are, the body is paralyzed and still incapable of moving (paralysis has been mentioned as a method for immobilization for unintrusive VR tech if I remember correctly). Also depending on how FDVR tech is implemented, not only would a lack of a write function likely make it very, very difficult to enact bypass and control commands, certain commands may not even be readable because only particular parts of the brain are being read. Everything else is untouched, so if any part of those commands require a part of the brain that isn't being utilized, the signal would likely be discarded via frontal cortex (if I remember that correctly) as redundant sensory information.

 

I also agree that an evacuation protocol is necessary. Or rather, essential. Not only that, but being able to check your surroundings from a dive state would be very useful as well. This way there is still a line of communication to the outside from a dive state, as well as checking what time it is, etc from a dive.

[SidewinderTV]

OK, so it's time for me to enter. It seems that the dimplest solution is to just not let the device write to anything other than the sensory inputs? It will still be able to throw people into disorientation but not "take over" their brains. This combined with a quick terminate function should be enough to stop hacking attempts right?

 

Tell me if I've missed anything 'cause I have a feeling I may have.

[jjth39347]

Something just came to mind. I'm wondering if a vertical suspension system would need to be in place. I am under this impression because our spacial recognition comes from the fluid in the inner ear correct?

That being said even with our sensory input coming from something other than VR stimuli while playing wouldn't our ears still hold command over this spacial recognition via this very physical liquid? How would we get around the sense of always being on our back while in game?

[palgonistar12]

Hello , Can you tell me what's going on here ? On this forum was 16 pages, right? now is 14 , you can explain it to me?

[jjth39347]

Hello , Can you tell me what's going on here ? On this forum was 16 pages, right? now is 14 , you can explain it to me?

 

 

yeah it was broken down into more manageable post. Just check the FullDive technology sub forum to see all the topics

[EragonYin]

For example, the nervegear has internal storage. But no one told us how the initial setup of the user profile was made. It's entirely possible, instead of writing direct to the mind about most of our senses, it created a digital map of the mind and stored it onto the IS. With that, just a few base tests would be needed to measure brain functions on a proactive way. Visual tests, audio tests, vocal, etc. This would allow the nervegear to configure you sensibly and produce more accurate results.

Second, is the mention of microwave technology being used to kill the players. It's entirely possible we can use the microwave signals to keep a sharp monitor of the brain and scan the facial features of the players, in order to project themselves correctly into the game.

 

But the biggest detail I found was the hint at using diamond-semiconductor processors.

 

Https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/diamond-based-cpus.440893

 

I read through this and found it really interesting. If we had one or two of these working in the helmet, and insisted on using microwave technology, it's entirely possible to have, instead of one giant electro-magnet in the helmet, have a small honeycomb of multiple scanners sending results at the same time to the processor. This would give us an MRI-like scan of the brain, most likely in seconds.

 

Even if we use the diamond conducters for the microwave for constant brain imaging, we would still need to "write" to the brain for the senses. Maybe use the cerebral cortex for all of the input going into the brain, and let that sort it out, and utilize that part of the brain to keep the body motion whilst the major organs stay functional. But it may work, just need more research into the actual cortex to fully understand where to send said magnetic waves, of a certain frequency, to get desired results.

It would be recommended to have a battery backup in case of a power shortage, or something similar, but you must also incorporate a heart monitor and a time filter into the headset to let the person know that they have been on for x amount of time and to move around. 

With the individual tests, it would be recommended to touch the body to calibrate the headset to your body using the microwaves running back and forth(assuming that they don't fry the brain first from constant scanning). And this is where I believe the EEG would be safer than using individual microscopic scans of the brain per second as you aren't going to risk the chance of a brain frying. But with the waves of any EM wave shorter in frequency than the microwave, you could use to target the cerebral cortex to, say, "write" to the brain. And you could also use those same waves to have the cortex to keep the body still, while you think about moving which would let the EEG multi-function with the movement, thoughts, speech, and facial expressions.

You do have some good ideas, but upon reading on many forums where people keep shooting down others due to either lack of evidence, too much evidence, or not enough scientifical backing to prove them right or wrong. From what I kept searching on the brain, is that almost everything goes through the cerebral cortex, that small part of the brain.  Upon using that to "transcribe" to the brain would be the safer option without having to go for a full chip implant to directly "write" to the neurons within the entire brain to get desired results.

 

In full, a design of the NerveGear would have to comprise of a powerful EEG for the main headpiece, while the cerebral cortex gets given sensory input from the EM waves emitted from the headpiece, which stemmed from a game, to let the cortex place that sensory information into the right neural connections within the brain. Then from those bits of information given, gets sent back with the reaction back through the EEG back into the game. But keep in mind, that you would not be able to keep many secrets within that chosen game, i.e. Asuna crying with Kirito.

[Reset2071564]

Hello! My name is Everett. Today I will talk about the "Nerve Gear" that is in a very popular show. I will tell you this: I am making a Nerve Gear when I'm done with college. I am a programmer. So I will make it plug into a PC or PL. You can put in a game in you PC/PL and you will be able to control in that Virtual world. Although you won't be able to move in real life, unless you log out of the game. I hope you are looking forward to it. Have a good day! Bye!

[KrisBi]

Hey guys ive read all of your comments and poen conv3rsations of the topic that i love the most and ill be glad to say this to you. I am currently working on some hypothetical and actual blueprints about how the idea of the nerve gear would aply in our realty and i figured that if we want to do something this big we need to start small and first just build a system that can deliver a reliable and smooth connection betwen the brain and an average user pc. This system does not have to have sensory system on its early states because that technology is pretty lategame in that point. We just need a device that can make movement reading and writing. Its sad to say but i think that in the early stages we have to dely on Oculus Rift or something like that for the visual apparence of the VR headset. Then we can move on to the next phase of implementing visual information the the brain. And then as i said before this is the part when we study the sensory part. The idea is quite good but the best bet for now is to stick to the nerves in the neck part of the body and start making that movement read/write part of the headset as a part of the bigger picture that we are trying to make.

I am more than willing to suppoert you guys in this great project not only with ideas but we can start saising founds too. Ill gladely help you guys not because its an easy task but because the more we are the more we help eachother, the more we help eachother the faster we can progress and make our dream come true. Because we are gamers with in our hearts.

[zivtheawesome]

hello I am also one of those guys to make an account just to comment.

i am very happy seeing how you all belive in this project as i belived in fulldive for years (im only 14 BTW but i love all of the fulldive concept and sword art online).

i thought that perhaps to stop the pulses and muve them to where you want them you can use a magnet that "steals" the pulses from the neck and move it through the machine.

a problem with that solution is that you have to disable all of the nuirons (however you spell it) in which it'll cause death. so you need to find a solution to that.

hope i helped! :)

 

EDIT: btw what neurons we also need to not touch (other than breathing) while we dive?

Edited June 14, 2015 by zivtheawesome

[Eyeball]

Has this thread explored the possibility of reading the electrical pulses that travel down that nerves in the neck region (probably going to have top be high up so you can get the neck moment), and use those currents as the input for the controlled (I know it is not like the anime (cause they used brain waves)). And in stead of writing directly to the brain, we write to the nerves that apply this function. The Prosthetic's already have feeling through the nerves when the prosthetic touches and object, but this is done through invasive tech. 

 

This may only work for the movement tho, cause senses such as smell may not use nerves. (I don't know that kind of stuff).

 

The theory may not work either, because thread is about a non-invasive device, and I'm not sure if you can read the electrical signals that way. (Once again I don't know that kind of stuff) 

 

Any way it would be great to hear back from this community, cause well we are all wanting this to be a reality.... Cause... Who doesn't want the feeling of doing the in-game with your own body.

 

Please give me you thoughts. 

                                                Eyeball 

[zivtheawesome]

thanks simroh1! i don't know much about the subject so thanks for correcting me!

[CaelesMessorem]

Now that I think about it, is anyone actually trying to come up with a design for what it would actually look like and how all of the pieces are going to fit together? I would love to try but only I fpepme haven't attempted to yet.

 

   The thing about the design is that until we have an idea of the technology required to make this device function, and that technology's scale, it's not yet possible for anyone to nail down a solid rig concept. After all, without pieces, a puzzle can't be put together. :)