How Long Until We Could Make A Real Sword Art Online (sao) Nerve Gear Type Device

[KiriyagaKazuto]

Ok Zazz54 just let me know when you need a website, code, ect because I'm your man

I enjoy the almost constant additions we are getting to the group. 

 

 

I have also been wondering if the NG/DDW would be connected to the user's PC by USB and use the Computer's hardware and only rely on the NG/DDW to be a extremely complex, high tech gamepad, or if it would also help with the game rendering. I assume it would be just the high tech game pad, only being the controller of the game while also being the monitor you view the game with. The monitor is not something to be concerned with since the Oculus Rift already has 1080 resolution in their devices. Just thinking about it all in retrospect makes things seem a little simpler to accomplish.

[jonahismiley]

There is a problem though... Pain is just us feeling but more critical. In the VR simulations we might feel pain. So would we have to read the brain set a max limit on the feeling level. Won't it need to be calibrated with certain people, and it would be very hard to find certain ways to do this without making the simulation feel weird and really unrealistic. 

[jonahismiley]

We definitely need to have faster devices that can have realistic graphics and can read and write on the brain fast enough. Also we'll need our internet to have higher speed and bandwidth (bandwidth isn't much of a problem, it's just expensive to get good routers with good bandwidth). This will take a lot of time(both the Nervegear type device and the faster running systems)to make and produce. I have been on this topic and have been looking on my email, looking at every reply. I hope someone will post an awesome idea sometime... (:

[Shodan]

CraigD,

 

Thank you for the info on pontine tegmentum and REM sleep. This is something I will look into deeper.

I've read your concept of DDW, but I don't see it as an acceptable alternative to a Nerve Gear, for obvious reasons. Much like a wired electromechanical telegraph isn't a suitable alternative for a modern cell phone. It seems possible to create such a system with existing technology, and it does not require a research project - only engineering. But even in the best way I can imagine it being implemented - it is not something that brings us closer to VRMMORPG experience shown in SAO. As such it isn't something I'd like to work on.

 

Again, I'll remind you all of the 3 branches of research I see as most interesting:

• Pontine tegmentum and REM sleep - to block motoric impulses from reaching real body (assuming we do want it to stay still during the dive). A research project for some crazy neuroscience Ph.D. student. Ask your fellow grad students if they know anyone who can be interested in doing research on this. I'm dead serious, this is worth a Ph.D. thesis at least.
• Emotiv EPOC+ and it's advanced versions - to READ motoric commands from the brain. Tech is already there, need more accuracy, lower latency, etc. More for computer science geeks. Experimenting with the hardware and software/firmware of the EPOC+ desired. I will try contacting Emotiv in a few days and see if they can give some estimate of their product with respect to our requirements.
• Attaching to sensory nerves to simulate haptic, gyro and body position feelings - this seems the most fuzzy area, i.e. I think implementing this part of the system would require technology that is currently beyond the horizon.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Shodan

[Kiriro]

also I agree with the idea of CraidD to create DDW which may be already a good basis from which to begin, in fact it is very tempting.

Then I wanted to indicate some aspects in which I doubt: keep multiple devices connected VR, and run them all correctly and simultaneously; and in my opinion, players who will use such a device must have a good gaming computer to connect and operate correctly the kind of NerveGear, this leads me to think that it will take enough money to be able to play a VRMMORPG and this seems to me a block of commercialisation of the product. I would like to be proved wrong on what I said though by my side is a secondary issue.

[Kilravok]

Sorry for my long absense, I was without ionternet a few days.  Also sorry for not replying to earlier posts that I missed and instead going straight to what seems to be the present main topic, along with what I can remember from earlier posts after ariving at the end of the thread....

 

The Waldo could be used by developers as tuning platform for motoric translations, at best.  It only gives a True3D but lacks the immersiveness of VR.  In any VR system, be is from SAO or AccelWorld or GitS, there is a full sensoric isolation from the physical world when you dive.  You can not hear when somebody talks to you while online.  With the DDW, you still can hear what people say, you feel the drop in physical room temperature, you feel your own real hunger, etc.... With a FDVR system, you don't have any of that, you would need peripheral comunication tools for someone outside the VR environment to talk to someone on the inside.

 

As for the simulated hunger and eating, if the NerveGear is limited to the already listed sensoric centres and limited to reading skeleton muscle instructions, then the NG would not even know when or if you are hungry and would not be able to simulate being hundry or sated...with no access to the part of the brain that reads your blood sugar or other parts of blood chemestry, there is no way it can do that, just as it could not manipulate your adrenalin or dopenin or serotonin levels.  Those would be regulated by the brain naturally based on context of sensoric input (The supernatural terror efect of undead or lust/affection efect of succubi won't be able to affect player characters in VR).  The taste/scent input is purely for immersion, but eating food might still have game mechanical relevance (keeping HP or speed up, etc...).

 

Security is easy if it is a brain scanning NG style system...If I understand correctly, each person has a unique composition of brainwave patterns.  Those alone would work out as identifier to check that you are you.  If brainwave identification can not be done, the helmet's visor might quire realistically have a retina scanner included.  To prevent unallowed access to your accounts, the account information is on the helmet, inputted on initial start-up via virtual interface and scan, it is inputted ONCE, IF the helmet sees that there is no account already set up.  The information is saved on a chip that can be written on ONCE, after it is written on, the BIOS will erase the code required to write into that ID chip.  The new helmet can be set up to a new owner, once an owner is set up, it is set up for life.  The helmet reads the user ID only on startup for ID confirmation.  Anti-hacking and virus protection is achieved through using a system-exclusive OS, maybe even exclusive language, and file format.  Only licenced game developers will have the code, limiting the possible places a virus might get into the system and making it perfectly trackable.

 

Making money with this is not a crime, we can even allow ourselves to get filthy rich with it.  At the very least, we should try to recoup the R&D costs.  Cutting corners and slacking off on safety and quality for the sake of maximised profit however is a deadly sin.  Anybody trying that will be sent to the resurection altar a thousend times and then sued into kingdom come.

As long as we keep a tight check on where we get our funding from, try to get loans rather than selling shares and refuse to ever have the company itself sellable, neither Google nor FaceAche should be able to get their fingers in the gears.  They can research their own methods and codes or wait until the time for our IP and patent protection runs out.

 

 

I hope I responded to everything that came in since.  If not, please accept my appoligies and remind me....and please forgive my abysmal spelling...

[KiriyagaKazuto]

While in AP Psychology today, my teacher briefly mentioned Interneurons and stated that they are located in the brain and the spinal cord and are in the middle between Efferent (Motor) Neurons and Afferent (Sensory) Neurons. They apparently do something fancy and seemed extremely import to our project- I think Interneurons receive both Efferent and Afferent and "translate" them so they can be passed on to the neurons they are supposed to go to. I am not sure if that is completely accurate, but It might be important for later, if anyone would like to take a look into that. 

 

I don't believe DDW will need many more resources than your gaming computer that could play Crysis, Shadow of Mordor, or even Skyrim ENB, unless we are looking to play super crazy games that don't quite exist yet. But I believe people will continue to upgrade their computers when higher graphic games come out, regardless if the DDW exists or not. Michio Kaku predicted photo-realistic graphics by 2020. So in theory, gamers would have graphic requirements met to play such a game as SAO by the time, if ever, it is released by a company- as long as people haven't resubbed for a WoW reboot with VR. 

 

So does it all boil down to being able to stop the motor impulses from reaching the body parts to ensure no movement? It seems we have good ideas for everything else without involving intrusion. Though it may lack the capabilities of some of the things we have listed on this forum, it would still be an excellent start, and would probably lead to monetary contributions from many others if we can perfect the concepts of diving and moving your character in the game without moving your real body. Of course, if we did receive money, whether it be a kickstarter or just a showcase of what we have so far, I hope it would go to the fund for increasing the immersion and building on our "beta" DDW. We might also receive offers to become apart another company, and that is a tricky thing to think about because: 1. Funding for the project would sky rocket, and I mean the actual creation of the DDW project, not our salaries. 2. We could join a company that has a lot of professionals that are willing to help our pros and excited to take on this task at hand. 3. If we partnered with another company, say one that also designed games, we could work with them 1 on 1 with game creation making the perfect game, whether it be SAO or Swimming Simulator 2018. 4. I know this is just all hopes and dreams, but it is a possibility and I am one to take a look at all the possibilities and find the ones that are most probable. Although, I would absolutely love to stay our own organization and make it independently, I don't think it would be a bad idea to join a group that has excellent intentions and won't be companies that try to use it for money. 

 

All of those decisions would need to be made with a group consensus, however.  

[jonahismiley]

We need to discuss THE most difficult part of the body that we will have to simulate in the VR. A large roll in the  human body is (I did some studying, so yay for me  ) is the liquid in the inner ear which moves in sync with the body movements. This enables you to maintain balance while walking. This could be something that we could forget and will regret not putting it in. We could kind of make our own type of thing that will stimulate it. Without this in the simulation, we would feel very unbalance and like we are on a whole different planet, which we want it to feel real (unless otherwise pronounced). How might we find the "code" of the ear or find a scale to put from sounds, pitches, loudness and more into signals sent to the brain. Also, what technology will we use to communicate with nerves and the Dendrites of a neuron.

[Immortal517]

We need to discuss THE most difficult part of the body that we will have to simulate in the VR. A large roll in the human body is (I did some studying, so yay for me ) is the liquid in the inner ear which moves in sync with the body movements. This enables you to maintain balance while walking. This could be something that we could forget and will regret not putting it in. We could kind of make our own type of thing that will stimulate it. Without this in the simulation, we would feel very unbalance and like we are on a whole different planet, which we want it to feel real (unless otherwise pronounced).

Well this for most people isn't necessary. As long as the sound and visuals are crisp and clear it will feel like you're moving or tilting just because our brain sees it and predicts that movement. So it falsifies the feeling. But don't quote me I'm still researching this.

[CraigD]

So does it all boil down to being able to stop the motor impulses from reaching the body parts to ensure no movement? It seems we have good ideas for everything else without involving intrusion.

I don’t think anyone here or anywhere has a workable idea for how to “write” to the brain in the nonintrusive way some have found suggested in SAO/AOL/GGO – that is, using “high density microwave transceivers” or a “powerful electromagnet”.

 

As we discussed upthread, microwaves and other EM radiation can’t be used to directly stimulate nerves. They can heat the water in tissue, causing it to expand slightly, which can be used to produce sounds that can be heard via the inner ear’s cochlea, but this is less effective than simply sending sound down the outer ear canal using ordinary distant or earphone speakers. They might be able to have some effect on the brain by damaging it, but this seems to me a bad idea. The basic physics of EM radiation prohibit RF waves such as microwaves from effecting very small volumes, so even if a technique to usefully affect the brain could be developed, it could affect only large collection of neurons, not small collections or individual ones.

 

Moderately powerful electromagnets can affect the brain, by inducing electric currents in it, but only large areas of it, slowly producing subtle effects, such as reducing depression, a technique known as transcranial magnetic stimulation. Again, basic physics prohibit TMS from affecting very small volumes, so it can’t “write” to small collection or individual neurons.

 

These fundamental physics limitations are what lead me to conclude that any NerveGear-like device would have to actually insert insulated conductive electrodes into the brain, the way present-day systems such as the Dobelle Eye, a system that allows blind people to see, does. To be so minimally invasive that the electrodes would be invisible, and other than making the device work, undetectable to their user, they’d need to be automatically inserting and very small. I imagined this in a bit more detail in this post.

 

Once you have the basic technology to read and write to large numbers of small collections or individual neurons, making a system with all the features shown for the NerveGear, including , requires mere programming of sufficiently fast computers – no easy task, but not prohibited any fundamental physical law.

 

In summary, I don’t think the present-day technologies best at imaging brains, such as fMRI, or non-invasive technologies such as TMS, CMS, and ECT, can be successfully extended to make a NerveGear-like device. I think a successful technology must involve nanotechnology.

[Kilravok]

We need to discuss THE most difficult part of the body that we will have to simulate in the VR. A large roll in the  human body is (I did some studying, so yay for me  ) is the liquid in the inner ear which moves in sync with the body movements. This enables you to maintain balance while walking. This could be something that we could forget and will regret not putting it in. We could kind of make our own type of thing that will stimulate it. Without this in the simulation, we would feel very unbalance and like we are on a whole different planet, which we want it to feel real (unless otherwise pronounced). How might we find the "code" of the ear or find a scale to put from sounds, pitches, loudness and more into signals sent to the brain. Also, what technology will we use to communicate with nerves and the Dendrites of a neuron.

We don't need to manipulate the fluid in the middle ear to simulate tilt and acceleration if we can directly stimulate the nerves that measures the fluid behavior or the brain part that interpretes those nerve impulses.

 

 

Well this for most people isn't necessary. As long as the sound and visuals are crisp and clear it will feel like you're moving or tilting just because our brain sees it and predicts that movement. So it falsifies the feeling. But don't quote me I'm still researching this.

Not quite true.  If the visually perceived motion and tilt are not in line with the motion and tilt of the middle ear, vertigo happens.  It is like standing in a high place where the moving clouds contrasted against the unmoving ground gives the illusion of movement can clashes with the ear's impression that everything is standing still.  It is a very similar principle to why I am not able to play or watch first-person-shooters with high quality 3D rendering (I hope I won't have that vertigo problem with FDVR).  Same effect but reversed is when the ear measures movement but the eyes say everything is still, like after spinning around yourself a few times and then trying to stand and walk straight.

As far as I am aware, astronouts need to spend quite some time in free-fall Zero-G simulations to teach their brain to handle that situation before they can go into actual Zero-G.

[DHendry1988]

The brain will have some form of response to every part of the body, whether it be physical or neural. One way or another the brain will pick it up and we can monitor the brain's reaction to the rest of the body.

 

If a section of the spine is disabled, the entire body can stop moving but can still be kept alive. Is there any way we can simulate this via a pressure pad or electrostatic plate or something? Have one at the spine to disable the lower body, but have one above that point to measure the incoming and outgoing signals for the brain, one to measure the incoming and outgoing signals to the rest of the body, and a processor between the two that can process what the body is saying to the brain? If we can logically figure out how the body talks to the brain by presenting the system with strenuous scenarios created through the physical body, then we could technically create a "feedback system" that allows both sensors to send electronic signals from the pads to ensure the brain and body communicate but through an internal application. This is where a honeycomb design of miniature and individual MRI scanners can cover the entirety of the brain in a much shorter timeframe. It simply creates a digital copy of the brain within the computer, used to return certain values to and from the brain. It can be used to monitor physical hunger, outside intervention to the body, and any physical abnormalities when its in use. The body would send these signals to the system, sync them with similar scans being read from the brain, the application would deduce if its outwith logically acceptable parameters, and either notify the player to voluntarily disconnect, or to notify them they'll be disconnected automatically.

 

All I'm saying is that, externally we may be able to cut off the brain from the body using a virtual bridge affecting a physical plate, and the bridge can be rejoined when the player has to, or wishes to, leave.

And with these 81GHz diamond semi-conductor processors, we could be looking at greater processing power without the need for RAM. Meaning all the brain processing and body processing would be done from within the helmet and not to the local PC. The PC would basically be a glorified modem/server.

 

or am I wrong in any of that? Not on realistic terms, but by possibility.

[Akiro]

Hello everybody i am new at this site and i already read all posts on this topic so i started researching myself and foun this: theconnecto.me/2015/01/using-light-to-talk-with-neurons-podcast-12-michael-hausser/ and i think you should concentrate on visual and sound effects as well as brain reading(controling...) and after mastering those then you could concetrate on other stuff(smell, taste, balance etc.)

here are is one link that might help too: theconnecto.me/2014/12/the-top-5-neuroscience-breakthroughs-of-2014/

look at the archives on that site there are some helpful stuff.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Akiro

[Five2Fly]

While in AP Psychology today, my teacher briefly mentioned Interneurons and stated that they are located in the brain and the spinal cord and are in the middle between Efferent (Motor) Neurons and Afferent (Sensory) Neurons. They apparently do something fancy and seemed extremely import to our project- I think Interneurons receive both Efferent and Afferent and "translate" them so they can be passed on to the neurons they are supposed to go to. I am not sure if that is completely accurate, but It might be important for later, if anyone would like to take a look into that.

 

I don't believe DDW will need many more resources than your gaming computer that could play Crysis, Shadow of Mordor, or even Skyrim ENB, unless we are looking to play super crazy games that don't quite exist yet. But I believe people will continue to upgrade their computers when higher graphic games come out, regardless if the DDW exists or not. Michio Kaku predicted photo-realistic graphics by 2020. So in theory, gamers would have graphic requirements met to play such a game as SAO by the time, if ever, it is released by a company- as long as people haven't resubbed for a WoW reboot with VR.

 

So does it all boil down to being able to stop the motor impulses from reaching the body parts to ensure no movement? It seems we have good ideas for everything else without involving intrusion. Though it may lack the capabilities of some of the things we have listed on this forum, it would still be an excellent start, and would probably lead to monetary contributions from many others if we can perfect the concepts of diving and moving your character in the game without moving your real body. Of course, if we did receive money, whether it be a kickstarter or just a showcase of what we have so far, I hope it would go to the fund for increasing the immersion and building on our "beta" DDW. We might also receive offers to become apart another company, and that is a tricky thing to think about because: 1. Funding for the project would sky rocket, and I mean the actual creation of the DDW project, not our salaries. 2. We could join a company that has a lot of professionals that are willing to help our pros and excited to take on this task at hand. 3. If we partnered with another company, say one that also designed games, we could work with them 1 on 1 with game creation making the perfect game, whether it be SAO or Swimming Simulator 2018. 4. I know this is just all hopes and dreams, but it is a possibility and I am one to take a look at all the possibilities and find the ones that are most probable. Although, I would absolutely love to stay our own organization and make it independently, I don't think it would be a bad idea to join a group that has excellent intentions and won't be companies that try to use it for money.

 

All of those decisions would need to be made with a group consensus, however.

I see where your coming from regarding funds. A lot of big name companies would actually throw money at you to see if the idea would go anywhere! Microsoft supposedly does this kind of stuff all the time. But when it comes to being rich off of this, I do see where in a lot of cases, the creators would sell out their product and then watch it be made to something horrible. Easily 2 examples, Halo (imo it had an absolute perfect ending, I wish I didn't end but bungie did it right!) and minecraft which I'm sure we all know what is happening with that. But as far as funding goes, I believe we should put a pin in it until we have somewhere to go in regards to physically building the device. But I see what you guys are worried about. About sh*t being rushed and poorly made for financial reasons or so we can simply make a quick buck. Honestly, we won't know anyone's inentions until we get to this form in the road.

 

But just so I can update everyone on my looking into the haptic systems, unfortunately the only thing that I could find was to use a modified tens unit in the sense of instead having 4 electrodes jammed onto your main muscle groups, it would have tons of micro-sensors planed throughout the entire body. When pressure would be needed, it can send a sign that determines which sensors click on and add a slight electric jolt. Just enough to simulate pressure.

 

Apologies if this isn't helpful.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Five2Fly

[Akiro]

Ok so i was researching(as always) and found out that we need read frontal lobe and motor cortex to have precise movement also at the same time we have write on sensory cortex , frontal lobe(for smell), visual cortex, auditory cortex (hearing capabilities) and cerebellum(balance). so if we could use light(as mentioned in my previus post) we could read and write informations in brain, we just need to master those things and calibrate them and there you have it FDVR (sounds easy).

Edited January 23, 2015 by Akiro

[Akiro]

we can use PET (m.livescience.com/49548-portable-brain-scanner.html) for reading brain activity they say that it will be smaller helmetlike brain scanner (hope this helps a bit)

Edited January 24, 2015 by Akiro

[Kinesia]

Hello everyone I've been reading this topic for a few days and would like to share my thoughts with you on the NG. I'm a 19 year old student in kinesitherapy.

 

First I want to speak about reading the brain or body. You see we do not possess enough knowledge about the brain that's why they started the brain initiative. So instead of reading impulses in the brain with EEG, why not simply reading impulses sent to the muscles? So how I see the NG is like some kind of morphe suit that uses EMG (electromyography) it's very simular to EEG and it is non-intrusive. The only thing that needs to be worked on is how do you interpret those signals to move your avatar in game. This knowledge is based on what i found here.

Sources:

emg suit

http://www.liveathos.com/apparel/gear

creating 3D movement with emg

http://www.isib.cnr.it/infor/papers/ias08preprint.pdf

electromyology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromyography

surface emg force modeling with joint angle based calibration

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050641112001940

 

For writing par, stopping the impulses from reaching the muscles I didn't find anything. I think our best bet here is nanotechnology. All I know is that would have to replicate feedback from moving joints and tonus in the muscles, this important then the sense of touch.

 

I hope I brought some helpful information. And please excuse me for my english, I'm from belgium.

 

 

Also I'm very familiar with the quote system so sorry for that :D

 

 

I mean not. Sorry for spamming