How Long Until We Could Make A Real Sword Art Online (sao) Nerve Gear Type Device

[Akiro]

Dont change topic we have to discus what is the best way for reading and writing data in the brain

[Mactyville]

Hello everyone I've been reading this topic for a few days and would like to share my thoughts with you on the NG. I'm a 19 year old student in kinesitherapy.

 

First I want to speak about reading the brain or body. You see we do not possess enough knowledge about the brain that's why they started the brain initiative. So instead of reading impulses in the brain with EEG, why not simply reading impulses sent to the muscles? So how I see the NG is like some kind of morphe suit that uses EMG (electromyography) it's very simular to EEG and it is non-intrusive. The only thing that needs to be worked on is how do you interpret those signals to move your avatar in game. This knowledge is based on what i found here.

Sources:

emg suit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USjAPKHFuSA

http://www.liveathos.com/apparel/gear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CXt1AfnpXE

creating 3D movement with emg

http://www.isib.cnr.it/infor/papers/ias08preprint.pdf

electromyology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromyography

surface emg force modeling with joint angle based calibration

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050641112001940

 

For writing par, stopping the impulses from reaching the muscles I didn't find anything. I think our best bet here is nanotechnology. All I know is that would have to replicate feedback from moving joints and tonus in the muscles, this important then the sense of touch.

 

I hope I brought some helpful information. And please excuse me for my english, I'm from belgium. 

Kinesia, I agree to your concept.. why not interpret the signals form the body to brain and brain to body..

something like this (Brain SIgnals=Transcoded--------Intravenous=(route+signals) > Intramascular=(Point of distination)/Feedback Feedback/Brain) Sorry This is just my conceptual view.. By the way I am taking bachelors degree in pharmacy,..But What I really want to take is BS astronomy.. I'm bored so it just became a hobby.. Exploring the Computing world.. :)

[Zedovr]

Hello everyone I've been reading this topic for a few days and would like to share my thoughts with you on the NG. I'm a 19 year old student in kinesitherapy.

 

First I want to speak about reading the brain or body. You see we do not possess enough knowledge about the brain that's why they started the brain initiative. So instead of reading impulses in the brain with EEG, why not simply reading impulses sent to the muscles? So how I see the NG is like some kind of morphe suit that uses EMG (electromyography) it's very simular to EEG and it is non-intrusive. The only thing that needs to be worked on is how do you interpret those signals to move your avatar in game. This knowledge is based on what i found here.

Sources:

emg suit

http://www.liveathos.com/apparel/gear

creating 3D movement with emg

http://www.isib.cnr.it/infor/papers/ias08preprint.pdf

electromyology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromyography

surface emg force modeling with joint angle based calibration

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050641112001940

 

For writing par, stopping the impulses from reaching the muscles I didn't find anything. I think our best bet here is nanotechnology. All I know is that would have to replicate feedback from moving joints and tonus in the muscles, this important then the sense of touch.

 

I hope I brought some helpful information. And please excuse me for my english, I'm from belgium.

 

YES!!!! This is a very good Idea except I looked in to this and your mucsels would have to be moving you would not be "sleeping" but using this to map out all of the possible movements in the game like when we program it would make life much easier and then you could basically move anybody body part in the game like you would in the real world... But like I said you would have to be actually moving your muscle in order for it to sense it where as what we want is only to read the nerves and not for them to move

[Mactyville]

I also have an idea about the key concept of the VR program.. I think the key there is the "hypothalamus" or the medula ..as mentioned before in the previous comments.. I have been reading articles.. and trying to analyze how to generate a virtual simulation using the hypothalamus as the base of all utilization of the virtual world.. Given the fact that our hypothalamus is a section of the brain responsible for hormone production. The hormones produced by this area of the brain govern body temperature, thirst, hunger, sleep, circadian rhythm, moods, sex drive, and the release of other hormones in the body. This area of the brain controls the pituitary gland and other glands in the body. This area of the brain is small, but involved in many necessary processes of the body including behavioral, autonomic, and endocrine functions. The hypothalamus' primary function is homeostasis, which is to maintain the body's status quo system-wide. Which means that if we have the grasp of this..we could replicate some situations in real life to the virtual world.. like for example thirst and body temperature.. We just need to figure out.. on an extensive study.. You guys are the best! I thought no one is as enthusiatic as me in stuffs like this. now I've recovered my initiative and this forum has motivated me! I hope we get all get along! 

[Zedovr]

I also have an idea about the key concept of the VR program.. I think the key there is the "hypothalamus" or the medula ..as mentioned before in the previous comments.. I have been reading articles.. and trying to analyze how to generate a virtual simulation using the hypothalamus as the base of all utilization of the virtual world.. Given the fact that our hypothalamus is a section of the brain responsible for hormone production. The hormones produced by this area of the brain govern body temperature, thirst, hunger, sleep, circadian rhythm, moods, sex drive, and the release of other hormones in the body. This area of the brain controls the pituitary gland and other glands in the body. This area of the brain is small, but involved in many necessary processes of the body including behavioral, autonomic, and endocrine functions. The hypothalamus' primary function is homeostasis, which is to maintain the body's status quo system-wide. Which means that if we have the grasp of this..we could replicate some situations in real life to the virtual world.. like for example thirst and body temperature.. We just need to figure out.. on an extensive study.. You guys are the best! I thought no one is as enthusiatic as me in stuffs like this. now I've recovered my initiative and this forum has motivated me! I hope we get all get along!

 

This is good but the way I see it is what we should do, or at least my idea, is to read the nerves from brain to the muscle, intercept them then when they have been intercepted as a input value for game we cancel them so the mucels never actually move here is a basic flow chart that I think would work

 

Nerve impulse from brain to (ex. Left arm) > machine picks up impulse turning of into a output data for game > sends output data to computer (like the consel we will make) > another machine or same machine cancels the nerve impulse so it doesn't actually move the arm

 

Does my idea make sense?

[Zedovr]

Then using this technique put the user into a kind of paralysis of coma until in the game they actually "log out" canceling the machine so their nerve signals can move all the way to the muscle... How I think of it is the brain being a battery for a electric motor the way to get the electric to the motor is through a cable (nerve) what the machine will do is wirelessly tap into the cable reading the information and send it to the game then canceling it so the electric never gets to the motor there for the motor never moves

[Kinesia]

@zedovr If we tricked the mind in to thinking that we do not need to contract a muscle that hard to be in movement, then in game it would look like you made a full movement while in real life your just barely contracting your muscle.

 

Does this make sense to you? Or correct me if I'm wrong. I still need to do some research on this, but I think its more achievable than a EEG that reeds your movement. But we could still use it for other things like 'using the force' if you've seen those videos where they're moving a cube with their mind

[Zedovr]

@zedovr If we tricked the mind in to thinking that we do not need to contract a muscle that hard to be in movement, then in game it would look like you made a full movement while in real life your just barely contracting your muscle.

 

Does this make sense to you? Or correct me if I'm wrong. I still need to do some research on this, but I think its more achievable than a EEG that reeds your movement. But we could still use it for other things like 'using the force' if you've seen those videos where they're moving a cube with their mind

Yes this does make sense to me... Our only problem is we need to trick the mind

[Kilravok]

I think we should stay away from the hypothalamus...far, far away.  To my understanding, one scratch there, and the entire brain is scrap. 

Besides, if we access that part of the brain, controlling those functions, then we'd be opening the system to abuse in form of brain washing, emotion and behavior control, eugenics through cybernetic neutering, etc...the list goes on.....stay away from anything regulation or writing into thoughts, memories, emotions, vegetative body controls, endocryne system or the rest...only write into the sensoric centres, only read from the motoric controls.  We don't want any computer to tell us how we feel or what we think, only what we sense; and we don't want any computer to be able to actually read our memories and thoughts, only our actions at the time we are exercising them.

[Mactyville]

@zedovr If we tricked the mind in to thinking that we do not need to contract a muscle that hard to be in movement, then in game it would look like you made a full movement while in real life your just barely contracting your muscle.

 

Does this make sense to you? Or correct me if I'm wrong. I still need to do some research on this, but I think its more achievable than a EEG that reeds your movement. But we could still use it for other things like 'using the force' if you've seen those videos where they're moving a cube with their mind

KInesia..Yes good point. actually Zedo and I are now dicussing this on the other site.. Hope you could join here http://nervegearsquad.clanwebsite.com/ I also just signed up..

[CraigD]

Welcome to hypography, Akiro! :)

 

Hello everybody i am new at this site and i already read all posts on this topic so i started researching myself and foun this: theconnecto.me/2015/01/using-light-to-talk-with-neurons-podcast-12-michael-hausser/

Thanks for this link, Akiro.

 

It took a lot of searching and reading, but I think I have a pretty good understanding of the real techniques being discussed with Michael HAusser in the article’s podcast. A key paper is "Simultaneous all-optical manipulation and recording of neural circuit activity with cellular resolution in vivo" Aug 2014 by Adam M Packer, Lloyd E Russell, Henry W P Dalgleish & Michael Häusser, which has a diagram of a device that’s been used to read and write to individual neurons. This Scientific American blog entry is the best non-technical article I've found about it.

 

so if we could use light(as mentioned in my previus post) we could read and write informations in brain, we just need to master those things and calibrate them and there you have it FDVR (sounds easy).

It’s important to understand how Packer, Russell, Dalgleish & Häusser’s all-optical manipulation and recording technique is actually done.

 

Drill a small hole in the scalp and skull, and inject a liquid containing a virus that infects the brain, inserting a couple of genes into its cells.

Cut open the scalp, exposing the skull, and attach a metal plate with a hole in it.

Cut a hole in the skull

Cement a glass window over the hole

Within a week, the infected brain cells begin making 2 special proteins, GCaMP6 and C1V1.

A big external device is attached to the plate.

 

The big external device shines laser light of 2 visible light wavelengths on the brain. One wavelength causes the GCaMP6 to floresce, showing when the nerve cell’s calcium channels open as they fire. The other, which is precisely targeted using a SLM (essentially the same component used LCD projector, like those in conference rooms), excites the C1V1, causing the targeted nerve to fire.

 

My key point is that this system isn’t non-intrusive. Because it uses visible light, which can’t pass through the scalp and skull, you have to make holes in the skull. Because ordinary nerve cells aren’t photosensitive, you have to genetically modify the nerve cells so that they are.

 

It’s also able to interact only with neurons near on the brains surface, though the techniques have been used for deeper nerurons by implanting optical fibers in the brain.

 

It’s an amazing system, and I expect it and ones like it will reveal a lot about how the brain works, which is needed to make a computer-brain interface capable of a SOA-style Full Dive, but it seems to me too intrusive to actually use in one. My favorite technology remains nanoscopically fine electrodes.

[Mactyville]

We need to discuss THE most difficult part of the body that we will have to simulate in the VR. A large roll in the  human body is (I did some studying, so yay for me  ) is the liquid in the inner ear which moves in sync with the body movements. This enables you to maintain balance while walking. This could be something that we could forget and will regret not putting it in. We could kind of make our own type of thing that will stimulate it. Without this in the simulation, we would feel very unbalance and like we are on a whole different planet, which we want it to feel real (unless otherwise pronounced). How might we find the "code" of the ear or find a scale to put from sounds, pitches, loudness and more into signals sent to the brain. Also, what technology will we use to communicate with nerves and the Dendrites of a neuron.

 

Yes you're right, simulating the balance in VR is a crucial factor which would affect the game entirely. Also simulating the body mass.. otherwise you can't make some complex movements if you cannot focus your baance on the virtual plain.

I don’t think anyone here or anywhere has a workable idea for how to “write” to the brain in the nonintrusive way some have found suggested in SAO/AOL/GGO – that is, using “high density microwave transceivers” or a “powerful electromagnet”.

 

As we discussed upthread, microwaves and other EM radiation can’t be used to directly stimulate nerves. They can heat the water in tissue, causing it to expand slightly, which can be used to produce sounds that can be heard via the inner ear’s cochlea, but this is less effective than simply sending sound down the outer ear canal using ordinary distant or earphone speakers. They might be able to have some effect on the brain by damaging it, but this seems to me a bad idea. The basic physics of EM radiation prohibit RF waves such as microwaves from effecting very small volumes, so even if a technique to usefully affect the brain could be developed, it could affect only large collection of neurons, not small collections or individual ones.

 

Moderately powerful electromagnets can affect the brain, by inducing electric currents in it, but only large areas of it, slowly producing subtle effects, such as reducing depression, a technique known as transcranial magnetic stimulation. Again, basic physics prohibit TMS from affecting very small volumes, so it can’t “write” to small collection or individual neurons.

 

These fundamental physics limitations are what lead me to conclude that any NerveGear-like device would have to actually insert insulated conductive electrodes into the brain, the way present-day systems such as the Dobelle Eye, a system that allows blind people to see, does. To be so minimally invasive that the electrodes would be invisible, and other than making the device work, undetectable to their user, they’d need to be automatically inserting and very small. I imagined this in a bit more detail in this post.

 

Once you have the basic technology to read and write to large numbers of small collections or individual neurons, making a system with all the features shown for the NerveGear, including , requires mere programming of sufficiently fast computers – no easy task, but not prohibited any fundamental physical law.

 

In summary, I don’t think the present-day technologies best at imaging brains, such as fMRI, or non-invasive technologies such as TMS, CMS, and ECT, can be successfully extended to make a NerveGear-like device. I think a successful technology must involve nanotechnology.

I have done some research almost a year ago.. I think we should start of by understanding how does the motor cortices process human movements heres the site http://brainconnection.brainhq.com/2013/03/05/the-anatomy-of-movement/ . only then can we find a way on how to channel the signals into the VR .. as someone in here said here "reroute". Well just sayin' :)

Edited January 25, 2015 by Mactyville

[Akiro]

CraigD sorry for not researching a bit more about using light to talk with neurons i am on my phone and internet is very slow :(

[Akiro]

I think we need to wait for 1 year or 2 'cause we know what part of the brain is for what function but we dont have enough good technology to perfectly read and write on the brain. technology today is improving really fast and there will be a lot of breakthroughs in the next couple of years, we have time til 2022. sorry if i made someone sad

Edited January 25, 2015 by Akiro

[Five2Fly]

@akiro I feel your pain, I do my research off my iPod since my ridgeback thought my laptop would make a better chew toy then a rubber bone....

 

But CraigD, since most (if not all) of my direction comes from you, and Shodan, I would like to know where to begin

 

From what I hopefully understand, couldn't we use this information gathered from the neurons and nerve cells that are modified?

 

I need sleep, I apologize in advance.

[DHendry1988]

Hey guys.

 

Can I please encourage you away from the pre-programmed manipulation and configuration of the brain? It's not a USB plug and play device. You cant just insert your head into the device and use it willy nilly. Everyone has unique brain functions. For example, I'm epileptic, so my brain would function completely different to you all on this forum. So in short, let's put muscle contraction and expansion, the five senses, and all actual bodily communication to a halt.

 

1. We need to know what we're monitoring.

2. We need to know how it talks to the body.

3. We need to know how it syncs with the brain.

4. We need to know how it would respond under any specific conditions and how LOGICALLY we could adapt the system to monitor for adjustments and whether its safe or not.

 

I enjoy that you all are throwing in your efforts and providing information where possible, but this is a mess of scrambled eggs where everyone would take at least 24 hours or repetitively going through this forum to collate the ideas we have and see where everything is going and where we've all been.

 

I appreciate the efforts put into the extra websites but I'd say stop worrying about hiding our research. If a company or conglomerate wanted this same research so bad,they would just hire the experts and beat us to it. We have nothing to hide other than collaborated results, which dont seem to be taking shape as we're still just throwing coins into the wishing well.

 

We gotta start realistically. Funding means nothing without solid ground to stand on. Solid ground doesnt exist without results, results dont exist without collaboration and how can we collaborate when we're bouncing off the walls like Alvin and the chipmunks on coffee?

... yes, I watched that movie.

 

But still, stop worrying about competition because in the end, if we worry about that then we all compete against one another for some reason or other.

 

We need to know what parts of the brain to work with and how to read it before worrying about writing.

 

Start from the ground up...

Or am I wrong in any of this?

[Akiro]

i agree with you but to understand we first need to read brain signals, i have one question can we use ELF(extremely low frequency) to actually write on brain