How Long Until We Could Make A Real Sword Art Online (sao) Nerve Gear Type Device

[zazz54]

@Shodan and CraigD...

 

Lol honestly it feels like you guys are over on one side of the lab building a rocket with toothpicks and I'm in the corner beating 2 rocks together to make ice!

Should I write something about all of this, I would enjoy using the above quote.

[Kilravok]

Zazz, a FDVR system should be able to work for all solo, multiplayer and massive multiplayer.  As I understand it, the NerveGear, or whatever final device we mannage tog et working, would be only the log-in authentification and peripherial controller interface really, replacing KMV (Keyboard, Mouse, Video) based game and application controls.  All the computing would still happen on the computer or server.  Even in the anime, the NerveGear is pretty useless if you don't have wired or wifi connection to the internet.

 

Should I write something about all of this, I would enjoy using the above quote.

If you want to sort this thread out and bring some order into it, yu could start with summerising all the posts here in seperate reports, sorted by subject.

 

If you mean with writing abut this, making a PR or Fundraiser campaign, you could make a write-up and submit it to the General board in the Ethics category on the other forum.

 

Basicly, it is up to you, where you focus your efforts and contributions.  This is not school, here you are not forced to work on bettering your weak points and end up mediocre across the board due to not working on your strong points.  Work towards your strengths and be excellent at those.  Leave the things you're not so good at to those who excel at them.

[zazz54]

Zazz, a FDVR system should be able to work for all solo, multiplayer and massive multiplayer.  As I understand it, the NerveGear, or whatever final device we mannage tog et working, would be only the log-in authentification and peripherial controller interface really, replacing KMV (Keyboard, Mouse, Video) based game and application controls.  All the computing would still happen on the computer or server.  Even in the anime, the NerveGear is pretty useless if you don't have wired or wifi connection to the internet.

 

If you want to sort this thread out and bring some order into it, yu could start with summerising all the posts here in seperate reports, sorted by subject.

 

If you mean with writing abut this, making a PR or Fundraiser campaign, you could make a write-up and submit it to the General board in the Ethics category on the other forum.

 

Basicly, it is up to you, where you focus your efforts and contributions.  This is not school, here you are not forced to work on bettering your weak points and end up mediocre across the board due to not working on your strong points.  Work towards your strengths and be excellent at those.  Leave the things you're not so good at to those who excel at them.

I appreciate your input my friend. However, I should make clear to you that though I am an enthusiastic student (with all of life) I haven't been a student in any institution for more than 30 years. I was a newspaper editor for many years before I 'semi-retired' about eight years ago. I wrote so many business articles in reputable business magazines before that it is embarrassing - that I spent so much time not doing what I really loved, investigative journalism. I published a novel a year ago, last Christmas.

 

When I found this forum it was because of my interest in science. I think you all have hit on the next big "Microsoft." I will write about this; not sure what medium I will use yet. I am enthusiastic about the interest and motivation and I believe that you folks will actually make it come to pass. This is something I haven't seen in many years; a group that is coming together in a commitment for a project that could be very beneficial to mankind, rather than just in it for the buck, or the Euro. I see the medical applications more than I do the gaming - I'm not a big gamer. All in all, my contribution, should there be a decision by all concerned to utilize my expertise, will be mostly as an observer and eventually in public relations. Let's just call me the Marketing Director's point man, for now. I have registered on the website forum:

 

http://nervegearsquad.clanwebsite.com

Edited January 26, 2015 by zazz54

[zazz54]

Welcome to hypography, Akiro! :)

 

Thanks for this link, Akiro.

 

It took a lot of searching and reading, but I think I have a pretty good understanding of the real techniques being discussed with Michael HAusser in the article’s podcast. A key paper is "Simultaneous all-optical manipulation and recording of neural circuit activity with cellular resolution in vivo" Aug 2014 by Adam M Packer, Lloyd E Russell, Henry W P Dalgleish & Michael Häusser, which has a diagram of a device that’s been used to read and write to individual neurons. This Scientific American blog entry is the best non-technical article I've found about it.

 

It’s important to understand how Packer, Russell, Dalgleish & Häusser’s all-optical manipulation and recording technique is actually done.

 

Drill a small hole in the scalp and skull, and inject a liquid containing a virus that infects the brain, inserting a couple of genes into its cells.

Cut open the scalp, exposing the skull, and attach a metal plate with a hole in it.

Cut a hole in the skull

Cement a glass window over the hole

Within a week, the infected brain cells begin making 2 special proteins, GCaMP6 and C1V1.

A big external device is attached to the plate.

 

The big external device shines laser light of 2 visible light wavelengths on the brain. One wavelength causes the GCaMP6 to floresce, showing when the nerve cell’s calcium channels open as they fire. The other, which is precisely targeted using a SLM (essentially the same component used LCD projector, like those in conference rooms), excites the C1V1, causing the targeted nerve to fire.

 

My key point is that this system isn’t non-intrusive. Because it uses visible light, which can’t pass through the scalp and skull, you have to make holes in the skull. Because ordinary nerve cells aren’t photosensitive, you have to genetically modify the nerve cells so that they are.

 

It’s also able to interact only with neurons near on the brains surface, though the techniques have been used for deeper nerurons by implanting optical fibers in the brain.

 

It’s an amazing system, and I expect it and ones like it will reveal a lot about how the brain works, which is needed to make a computer-brain interface capable of a SOA-style Full Dive, but it seems to me too intrusive to actually use in one. My favorite technology remains nanoscopically fine electrodes.

In reading each of the articles you linked to, from my point of view, I believe you are on to the correct way to make this thing viable; nanotechnology. Though it may be "intrusive," which, imo will exclude many users from participating, the fact that they (fine wires) are hardly noticeable seems the right way to go. It may also become unnecessary as the development in nanotechnology progresses.

[Kilravok]

I believe intrusive will be at least in the beginning the only feasable way to go.  Non-intrusive measures would require creating a scanning and writing electromagnetic field in the brain.  To get anywhere near the resolution and control we need, the scanners would have to be microscopic and create a polarised beam shaped field with a diameter smaller than the size of a cell, scatter of less than 0.02 degrees and controlable range.  Using non-intrusive electromagnetic fields might be better for fine tuning to the individual user, but lacks a lot of control and therefor safety.  Using the micro fibre option allows for precise control what parts of the brain are adressed and makes tampering after instalation more difficult.

[zazz54]

Seems to me that nano-technology is progressing very fast. I don't know what this means for this particular project, but I see that it may become possible that there is no intrusion at all in the near future. I'm sure Craig would have more knowledge about this than I do, however. Or you, kilravok, it seems.

Edited January 26, 2015 by zazz54

[jonahismiley]

Hey guys.

 

Can I please encourage you away from the pre-programmed manipulation and configuration of the brain? It's not a USB plug and play device. You cant just insert your head into the device and use it willy nilly. Everyone has unique brain functions. For example, I'm epileptic, so my brain would function completely different to you all on this forum. So in short, let's put muscle contraction and expansion, the five senses, and all actual bodily communication to a halt.

 

1. We need to know what we're monitoring.

2. We need to know how it talks to the body.

3. We need to know how it syncs with the brain.

4. We need to know how it would respond under any specific conditions and how LOGICALLY we could adapt the system to monitor for adjustments and whether its safe or not.

 

I enjoy that you all are throwing in your efforts and providing information where possible, but this is a mess of scrambled eggs where everyone would take at least 24 hours or repetitively going through this forum to collate the ideas we have and see where everything is going and where we've all been.

 

I appreciate the efforts put into the extra websites but I'd say stop worrying about hiding our research. If a company or conglomerate wanted this same research so bad,they would just hire the experts and beat us to it. We have nothing to hide other than collaborated results, which dont seem to be taking shape as we're still just throwing coins into the wishing well.

 

We gotta start realistically. Funding means nothing without solid ground to stand on. Solid ground doesnt exist without results, results dont exist without collaboration and how can we collaborate when we're bouncing off the walls like Alvin and the chipmunks on coffee?

... yes, I watched that movie.

 

But still, stop worrying about competition because in the end, if we worry about that then we all compete against one another for some reason or other.

 

We need to know what parts of the brain to work with and how to read it before worrying about writing.

 

Start from the ground up...

Or am I wrong in any of this?

I definitely see where you are heading, and I have been following this topic, replying, quoting, and researching on this stuffiness. A lot of people have actually said that we should read and write signals from the neck (there are a lot of reasons, one is that it is safer) from the neck (which a lot of people, including myself, agreed on for the most part). People are trying to make (mostly test and beta) websites for the discussions and what not to get it organized like my favorite (http://nervegearsquad.clanwebsite.com/) ,so far... Also, even if we do do it into the brain, almost everybody's brain is wired pretty much the same when you're in sensory and body movements, other than that the major disorders that disable the person from from a sense or body movement in the brain could make it difficult , or disable the person from playing correctly (or the person could tell the system to calibrate itself). Also, you used the analogy with the USB plug, I think you might need to look at some more replies and do some research (no offence), because we aren't going to "insert" your brain into a device (some people think that's how we're going to do it), we're going to read your mind (lol, literally)  and write into your mind or neck or whatever and keep your mind where it is. Also, (so many I know) we've said that we are going to put some of the communications in the body to a stop (except for the heart, immune system, kidney(s), etc.) . I don't mean to point you out or anything like that, I just want to put the right image on your mind. (maybe literally put an image on your mind someday, get it, cause the Nervegear, hehe, uh, yah...   ).

[DHendry1988]

Hey Jonah. Good to see that you're reading my posts :) I thought at first that everyone was ignoring me (that makes me a sad panda) but I believe you misinterpreted my use of the example of USB plug and play. I was using it as a counter point to the way some people dilute the complications into simple observations (e.g. simply using nanotech to pierce into the brain for direct control of the brain). The term plug n play is used for putting things into a computer and "awaaaaaay we goooooooo"... which is far from how this will all work out. I appreciate the fact that we've created a website to collate our information together, but lets not forget it was born out of the need for secrecy. No one suggested another forum until "we should keep it to ourselves" was brought into the fray, and as soon as that point was countered "this will be accessible by everyone who registers came into play...

 

Sort of like selling Team Fortress 2 full price for a couple of years before turning it free to play with microtransactions.

 

In all, I would like for everyone to simply keep on topic and start with the brain. cross that bridge before planning to cross another, because who knows when a landslide could destroy the next bridge we cross, or a storm (brain storm, haioooooooh) could hold you back from crossing for fear of falling off... but enough of that analogy before I become a fortune teller or meteorologist.

 

Basics, the brain is our biggest concern, and although nano probes could help, we dont really know how much damage it could cause, nor if it would be permanent. The holes may be tiny but it may not guarantee that cerebral fluid wont leak in :(

 

... or am I just being paranoid? :p

[zazz54]

Absolutely right, DHenry. It is my observation so far, as well, that some of the young bucs are charging forward running schnell-mel toward a cliff. I suggest, very strongly: SLOW DOWN!

 

This is not a competition to come up with the most useless piece of equipment. This must be thought out and researched until the time comes that something can be built, using blue prints and engineering specs that are utilized to their enth degree.

[Shodan]

Totally agree here with Kilravok

- you pretty much listed 2 of the 3 research points I've formalized earlier!

 

As for muscle memory - we don't need a computer to have access to that - it is not something in the muscles, muscle memory is long-lasting neuron structures in the motoric cortex, which have formed there due to repetitive activation of the same neurons over and over. If we want to read motoric signals from the nerves that go to muscles - they are already coming from the motoric cortex, and "muscle memory" is already applied to them inherently.

 

 

First we know how to interface a computer with neural impulses and make the computer understand and interpret those impulses correctly.  After the computer can translate neural impulses into digital computer signals, we need to find out how the computer can translate digital computer signals correctly into neural impulses.  Only after that is achieved, we can worry about what parts, other than sensoric and motor functions, we want to address....my own vote, keep it limited to those, except maybe give the computer access to muscle memory...

Edited January 28, 2015 by Shodan

[Shodan]

I also got a reply from Emotiv about using the EPOC for reading motoric impulses:

 

 

Right now EPOC deliberately avoids the motor cortex, because the headset is designed to be used by able bodied users as they mover around normally. Motor signals are not useful in that context. HIOWEVER, if you want to use motor signals there are residual signals visible on F3, F4, FC5 and FC6 sensors at least, when the headset is fitted normally. You can get a lot more motor signals by tilting EPOC backwards so the higher frontal sensors land over the top of the head, which places up to 8 semsors over the sensorimotor cortex

[DHendry1988]

Hey Kilravok.

Once again, respect for the points you made. I understand them and see where you're coming from, but respectfully I have a couple of quams about the points you made.

1. Working to our strengths. I'm a bit of a cynic (if that werent so apparent), and I find joy in 'making descend voluntarily that which cannot explain its ability to fly' (I'm not a violent person so the term 'shoot down' would be hypocritical of me) the ideas that are made simple. I do so, so that if the idea is strongly supported, all the negative thoughts can be filtered, only to reveal good things, and if it's poorly supported, to reduce the wasted effort and resources to make fail what couldnt succeed.

you want me to work on my strength? I'm sure I could do that :)

 

The social and ethical sides of things are constantly under check regardless of timing. We have to consider it for everything from intrusive brain control methods to integrated moisturised butt wipes (if that would be a feature, it would save me from the chaffing). So naturally,that can work on its own. But the rest is about variables and constants. the brain is a constant variable at present, where every aspect has a high risk of causing disaster, or even death, if approached incorrectly. So until we can make the entire brain one big constant, we cant have any further sub-variables. The helmet, the software, the advertisements designed to bypass your software and make bosses look like giant KFC buckets, they cant exist. And considering the recent rise in virtual terrorism lately, it would be advisable to look into a new OS that is as far removed from Windows, Linux and/or Mac as possible.

 

 

Once again, I am fully behind this project and seeing where it goes, so I dont mean to be a negative Nigel (I am NOT calling myself Nancy!), but if we cant have one perfect device and leave the competition to the software and games providers, then whats the point? It'll just become another XBox or Playstation and be milked for all its worth.

 

 

Anyways, enough ranting from me, I need some pineapple.

[Kilravok]

DHendry,

 

Thanks for the comments.  I see what you mean (I think..) and aggree with your priority and reason.  However, if we keep everything on stand-by and only work on understanding the brain, then everybody who is not a neuro scientist is basicly unable to contribute anything at all to this project.  By already at this point creating the other fields of research, we all can chip in, in the fields we are profeciant and interested in.  No point asking a legal expert to create a definitive map of the motor cortex along with an essay on how each neuron knows through which synapsis to send the signal to what next nerv.  Leave that to brain surgeons and let the lawer worry about possible future legal issues.  That is what I mean with everybody working to their strengths.  I hope that clarifies the confusion that might be.

[DHendry1988]

Hey Kilravok.

No confusions. I see exactly what you mean. Everyone chip in wherever possible and do their parts simultaneously. Do their strengths at the same time to speed production up. But tell me, can you identify all the software needed to run the hardware needed to work with the brain and the parts of the brain each piece of hardware will work with?

 

Because the hardware billy's will not know what they're building par the helmet. Logical construct is always a plus, but when there's nothing about the brain monitoring and manipulating gear needed, the shell is where they stop until we can give them definitive ground to walk on. As for the software billy's. They could make a shell of an OS to run on this hardware and create the logic build to compensate, but without the known hardware to be compatible, how much of it is being run, how to bridge and identify communications between them, the shell coding of an OS is all they have. No BIOS chips, no ROM chips, nothing.

Without the OS we have no base for the game to exist.

 

I see where you're going with it. Making people wait for others to finish means we have a lot of wasted time for potential contribution. However, they can always put in their opinions as the brain guys work. How will scanning the frontal lobes help and what will it control? For an example.

 

I know you want structure and everyone's participation, but I dont want rushed figures and contribution which will inevitably be altered by the subsequent research. True it would give them a little bit of a leg up, but what is that if you cant get over the wall? (So to speak)

[DHendry1988]

I just realized I may be confusing everyone with my bad grammar and sentence structure there :p my bad.

Ask if you dont understand something :p

[Kilravok]

Sure, the software engineers could already start working.  All they'd need would be an EEG or fMRI scanner or Emotiv EPOC, connect it to the computer and write down the actual values of the brain waves they measure.  Those values get coded into behavior on the screen.  Turn your head left, the mouse cursor goes left, lift your right arm, the cursor turns red, lift your left arm, the cursor rotates, stick out your tongue, the monitor background turns pinks...whatever.....MRI scanners already are able to apply values to what they measure in the brain and translate those values into colours for the brain imaging display.  Instead of colours, we give each bit of information an action.  A good start would be getting permission from Emotiv to reverse engineer their controler software for the EPOC or reverse engineer the software used in MRI scanners.  Maybe they even can get hold of the API source code...That would be awesome...

In the meantime, the hardware department works on producting scanners that are faster and more accurate, using smaller scan heads with a narrower scanning field but wider scanning spectrum, mounted on a helmet or tiara or whatever with a higher density than the previous models.

All that can be done while the brainiacs find out more facts and theories about how the brain actually works and what needs to be accessed how in order to do what we want. 

The only ones twiddling their thumbs would be the interface department who have to put all three fields together into one prototype.  They might be pretty bored until the other three groups got something they can actually work with.  But we are all smart people, we surely can find something for them to do...maybe get coffee and donuts for the other teams...or, alternatively, the interface team might be comprised of members of the other three teams, that way there is no interfacing team until it is needed and nobody has to sit on their hands.

 

I might of course be completely off base here, but wouldn't it be grande if it worked like that?  Surely, it's worth a shot.  ( Not the violent shot, I prefer the liquid measure.)

[DHendry1988]

Omg Kilvarok is an alcoholic. He admitted it at the end of his last comment! We heard it here first! (Or it could be the voices in my head)...

 

Just kidding, however I must point out that you did kinda make your entire statement void when you ended with "wouldnt it be grande if it worked like that?"

 

It makes you sound unsupportive of your own statement.