If Consciousness Is A Function Of Neurons ?

[newuser]

Then couldn't you just transplant the neurons into another persons brain and awake in the that brain ? Just consciousness as in being awake.

[Buffy]

The conundrum in all this is mostly that there's no good definition of "consciousness."

 

What's yours?

 

 

I used to wake up at 4 A.M. and start sneezing, sometimes for five hours. I tried to find out what sort of allergy I had but finally came to the conclusion that it must be an allergy to consciousness, :phones:

Buffy

[Coolio]

The conundrum in all this is mostly that there's no good definition of "consciousness."

 

What's yours?

 

 

I used to wake up at 4 A.M. and start sneezing, sometimes for five hours. I tried to find out what sort of allergy I had but finally came to the conclusion that it must be an allergy to consciousness, :phones:

Buffy

Your sarcasm is confusing me, sorry. I can't actually stand it.

 

 

Then couldn't you just transplant the neurons into another persons brain and awake in the that brain ? Just consciousness as in being awake.

Eh there's no synapse in the brain so obvs there can be no neurotransmitters...

[Buffy]

Your sarcasm is confusing me, sorry. I can't actually stand it.

 

Sorry you feel that way. Ignore it if you'd like.

 

Eh there's no synapse in the brain so obvs there can be no neurotransmitters...

 

Uh, the brain is full of synapses. Kinda what makes it work at all. If there weren't any synapses of course then your conclusion would naturally follow, but since your premise is faulty, there's not much content there.

 

What's *your* definition of consciousness?

 

 

Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic, :phones:

Buffy

[tscience]

There is no clear definition about consciousness, no one clearly solved the enigma of consciousness. Spiritual leaders & philosophers are defining the consciousness with a different way. May the accepted definition about consciousness: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind.

[Eclogite]

Since an integral part of the brain is neurons, how exactly do you intend to transplant these? This sounds much like the individual who had had the same axe for fifty years. He had only had to replace the shaft four times and the head three times.

 

Also, whatever it is, consciousness appears to be much more about the interconnectedness of neurons, rather than just the neurons themselves. Well, that's what my neurons say.

[zazz54]

If consciousness is simply neurons, which in themselves are so complicated we haven't reproduced them (yet - as far as I know), nor understand them completely - as to how their processes are defined, then this leaves much to be dissatisfied with in our "awake state." I think consciousness is the ability to be self aware, and to realize that there is so much more in our 'universe' that isn't explained (yet, again). And I would go so far as to say, consciousness, may be our soul.  

[Buffy]

One of the key issues is that it's not just the neurons and how they're connected, it's their *state*. This has to do with the charge they have stored and the state of the neuro-transmitters nearby.

 

If you turn off a computer, it's state goes away, even though all the hardware connections are there, and when you turn it on again, it's possible it will behave in a completely different manner, depending on the steady stream of random inputs it may encounter (e.g. loading a different operating system, starting a different program, getting different inputs to them).

 

If you "wipe" a human brain of that state information, even though all the "hardware connections" are the same, you'll likely have something that "behaves" very differently because it's stream of inputs are completely different. It won't have the same "experiences" and will not have the same "opinions" or "values."

 

I haven't used the word "consciousness" here quite purposefully, because I think it gets in the way of understanding the more fundamental reasons why people don't "think the same way:" we're all different because we all start at different points and experience different things. Not all of that is stored as "hardware connections" it's where the chemicals and the electrical charges happen to be right now.

 

 

The dream is the small hidden door in the deepest and most intimate sanctum of the soul, which opens to that primeval cosmic night that was soul long before there was conscious ego and will be soul far beyond what a conscious ego could ever reach, :phones:

Buffy

[zazz54]

Buffy, you're a poet. A smart one, I might add.

 

I was thinking about an incident that affected a relative after he was in a coma for some time. Doctors were saying that when and if he came to, he'd likely be a without the skills he had acquired already in life. They didn't use the word vegetable, but that was the implication. He was a Bosnia veteran. He did come out of his coma and there was an effect. It took him several years to regain a percentage of the skills he once had. He still has problems, but he did retain at least, a cognizance of his spiritual self and experiences, and he forgot nearly all of the horrible experiences that he went through in Bosnia. So maybe wiping the hard drive isn't always a bad thing. It can be 're-trained.'

 

Though attempting to pass on what was in that 'hard drive' to a virtual reality simulation may be accomplished at some point, what experiences might come with it? I basically understand that what might be attempted in a virtual reality simulation, is that our senses could be utilized, such as, taste, and smell, but if we tap into that "consciousness" and are actually able to transfer it to some computer, how would we be able to control how quickly the computer assimilated this state of being? I'm thinking of a robot with AI.   

 

I may be way off both topic and understanding, so forgive me - I'm just an old newspaper guy!

[Foghorn]

You cannot separate neurons from consciousness as there is simply no other example of it.

 

However, there ARE points to ponder.

 

Dogs miss their people when separated, consciousness? Self awareness?

 

Porpoises have been known to butt sharks away from floundering humans in the sea. 

 

Consciousness?  Self awareness?

 

Separating the two is both foolhardy and egocentric as we don't have a clear understanding of either.

 

But..as to the OP's original question, what do you think would happen if I had a few of my neurons injected directly into your brain?

 

Neurons are nothing without their network and as your brain is already networked, my few neurons would simply die but the needle might hurt.

 

Consciousness is believed to be quantum in nature but this might just be a guess as to why we really don't know. I do give it a bit of credence though as I've heard nothing better to explain it.

[Buffy]

While I think that Elon Musk is hyperventilating about AI (but only slightly), I'm quite sure we'll be able to someday replicate what the brain does to the point where it demonstrates some sort of consciousness. Indeed, much of this opinion is informed by the fact that animals with brains larger than a walnut seem to demonstrate "consciousness." There's no reason of course that any sort of non-biological (and it doesn't have to be in my mind) analogue shouldn't incorporate quantum/non-deterministic elements, and I've always seen that in fact randomness is somewhat essential to learning machines.

 

It's also notable that there has been some progress in transplanting fetal brain cells into patients with Parkinson's disease or who've had strokes, but as fetal tissue has such ardent protectors in America, most of this research is going on in Europe, Russia and China.

 

 

Aristotle was famous for knowing everything. He taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons.:phones:

Buffy

[Foghorn]

Transplanting fetal cells does not equal transfer of consciousness nor does it imply a progression of this method will ever do so...did I just sound crazy?

 

Anyway. dinosaurs showed nesting behavior...

 

Does a mom love her kids?

 

Is this a sign of self awareness?  Consciousness? Apocolypse?

[Foghorn]

Buffy, I saw your welcome on another page and I will try not to argue so much against you as it seems you have one fetal cell to rub against another ;p

 

However, I maintain that you should change your avatar as it is simply to HAWT.and probably kicks really high.

[Buffy]

Transplanting fetal cells does not equal transfer of consciousness nor does it imply a progression of this method will ever do so...did I just sound crazy?

 

Oh, no. I was merely pointing out that in fact there's work going on to actually transplant them for various purposes, which someone reading your post might have come to the conclusion was impossible. Definitely not trying to imply that that "transfers consciousness" which I personally believe is a much more holistic effect of brains that isn't "transferable" simply through pushing a few neurons into someone else's brain.

 

Anyway. dinosaurs showed nesting behavior...

 

Does a mom love her kids?

 

Is this a sign of self awareness?  Consciousness? 

 

That's what I'd call it myself, which is why it seems to be so common and easy to identify among higher-order animals (including cephalopods, as Moontan likes to point out)

 

... Apocolypse?

 

Yah, probably that too, at least the way our consciousness is moving us as a species. I try to be a little more hopeful than that.

 

 

To live without killing is a thought which could electrify the world, if men were only capable of staying awake long enough to let the idea soak in, :phones:

Buffy

[zazz54]

I'll try not to let my mouth get away from me this time -- oops, too late. Nonetheless, may I try and take a stab at the comment made about fetal cells? Biased media, as well as groups and individuals took shots at certain religious groups because they were against using fetal cells - at least that's the gist of what was being spewed. However the truth is, that some of the "conservative" groups that objected, and still do, were against abortion, and subsequently the use of fetal cells from an aborted fetus.

 

I don't speak for any group whatsoever. It is my opinion that if science can make use of cells to help rejuvenate someone, or cure particular diseases, more power to it. I have read many articles on the subject and am supportive of stem cell research. Yet, at the same time I will never support the use of stem cells or any cells that come from an aborted fetus.

 

With that said, in attempting to keep with the conversation, cell transfer into a brain or an AI, quantum or otherwise IMHO, could never bring with it any of our "consciousness." We may make a machine that is so human-like that one couldn't tell the difference, but the machine will still be a machine. I don't really understand the preoccupation of men to create a man and take the place of GOD - given GOD exists and did what He did. I believe He did.

 

And none of that precludes that cells, neurons, or whatever couldn't be utilized to help others, or cure others, etc.

Edited October 30, 2014 by zazz54

[Foghorn]

Once we create an intelligence capable of designing it's superior, we are obsolete.

 

Robotic rules i.e. Asimov? Give me a break, the singularity has just occurred.

 

[Buffy]

... in attempting to keep with the conversation, cell transfer into a brain or an AI, quantum or otherwise IMHO, could never bring with it any of our "consciousness." We may make a machine that is so human-like that one couldn't tell the difference, but the machine will still be a machine.

 

Yes, and as to the OP's attention to "transferring," I think we probably agree, but for different reasons I suspect. I don't see anything "human" about consciousness, and I'm pretty sure we'll eventually see a machine that has some sort of consciousness, which is exactly what has Elon Musk worried: it may not "share our values" or even consider us worthy of it's attention, and as he mused:

 

Musk half-joked...that a future AI system tasked with eliminating spam might decide that the best way to accomplish this task is to eliminate humans.

 

 

That's still conscious, just conscious in a way that we won't like.

 

I don't really understand the preoccupation of men to create a man and take the place of GOD - given GOD exists and did what He did. I believe He did.

 

And none of that precludes that cells, neurons, or whatever couldn't be utilized to help others, or cure others, etc.

 

I dunno. Why is that "taking the place of God?" And why are those other things not? Pretty sure that there are a bunch of people that would invoke the word of God to disagree with you on that point, and from both sides! :O

 

 

The creator of the universe works in mysterious ways. But he uses a base ten counting system and likes round numbers, :phones:

Buffy