Negative Effects That Having Fulldive Technology Would Bring

[Excogitator]

Moderation note: the 1st 5 posts of this thread were moved from the overly-long “How Long Until We Could Make A Real Sword Art Online (sao) Nerve Gear Type Device” thread, because they’re about a related but different subject.

 

Hi everyone.

 

Like most of you, after watching this anime, with the idea of playing in a completly virtual world, full of life, exploration and wonder, I really wanted to play it. So, after searching online I found this post, and got even more immersed into the idea that making this game may actually be a reality.

 

That was a few weeks ago, but the more I have thought now, the more worried I am that we may be looking into this the wrong way. The idea of being able to control you own world, free of the limitations that controls or keypads hinder you too is a very inviting one. Even still my mind is swayed by the fact that I really know I would immensly enjoy playing a game like SAO.

 

You may have already gone over this earlier, (I have read through all the post on this forum, and the other forums, but may have miss-interpreted it) but I was wondering if we have thought of the negative effects that having such technology would bring (i.e. Re-Writing peoples memories, especially if non-invasive brain reading/writing technology were to become a thing; or Having gamers that are so addicted to the virtual world that they never want to leave).

 

Maybe we should instead focus our amazing ideas into making this world a better and exciting place?

 

Thankyou for reading, I would like the opportunity to hear some of your ideas, even if they are contradictory.

 

 

If this isn't the right place to post this topic, please could you inform me of somewhere else. I was thinking of making a new topic, but saw that there has already been four SAO topics already and didn't want to spam unnecessarily.

[CaelesMessorem]

Heya Excogitator.

   To start with, your worries are completely understandable. Currently, we are just going into ways to make the technology possible, and as I'm sure you saw from multiple posts upthread, researching ways in which we may progress towards this end. There are indeed potential drawbacks to such technology, however I must emphasize that such risks have been present in all things ever created, given that, as humans, we have a tendancy to both utilize and abuse as we see fit, for better or worse. That being said, I would imagine that has been well considered by those currently looking into making a full-dive virtual reality device. Caution is indeed important, but details will likely be worked out once breakthroughs have begun surfacing.

   Touching on the point of making this world a better place, remember that full-dive VR isn't all that's being developed my friend :) Currently I see three types of VR devices (these are my categorizations and may likely be wrong or incorrect):

Integrated VR: like Microsoft's Hololens, which overlays your surroundings with virtual projections via the goggles worn to seemlessly combine real and virtual worlds.

Augmented VR: such as Oculus' Crescent Bay, Sony's Project Morpheus, et al. that work to essentialy "trick" the senses into believing that the surroundings being shown are YOUR surroundings.

"Full-Dive" VR: the focal point of this thread; complete cognitive/ sensory immersion in any virtual world of our creation or choosing.

   All these are cutting-edge, and will all be world changing in their own respect. Personally I would like to see the shift from 3D printing to work on full digitization/ materialization as that would allow for infinite possibilities. (Kind of like Borderlands storage units or Phantasy Star Universe's nano transformers). You never know what research in any of these fields will yield, and the possibility that we could find or create something with such benefit and so much potential for application is quite inspiring. Changing the world can be as simple as getting an idea :3 (sorry for the rant. I got excited there lol)

[Excogitator]

No need to apologize, I too get excited over all the amazing things we are finding ourselves surrounded by in this day and age.

 

I apologize for leaving that comment "..into making the world a better place?" so open. What I meant to say was why not introduce something into the world that engages us in ways that games do, making the real world just as fun or more fun then playing a video game. However, I should really put that into another category since it has begun to introduce a new topic.

 

Thankyou for replying so fast. I hope that you are right and we can put regulations into place that stop people from becoming addicted, or abusing the device. I feel as if I myself would love to play on such a device quite a lot.

 

I am so in awe of the work that has been compiled here, wish I could help input on the subject. Pretty cool how an anime or game can lead to the creation of something so well thought out and discussed.

[TheCrimsonReaper]

so just as out of curiosity shoden is using the EEG tech and such to work on getting touch? and feel? thats awesome me and my bro are helping to i am working on getting the actual atleast walking aspect of the game to actually move that is what im working on atleast if you really want to hear my theory or idea on what im doing i can post it but only if you really want to know...

[CaelesMessorem]

Excogitator:

   Ah, I apologize for misinterperating what you meant. Given the context I thought you meant in regard to VR.

It would be a good idea to make a new topic for your idea of engagement, but if you do, I'd be interested to see what you mean.

Protecting useres of the device from those who would abuse it is a bit tricky, as from what I can tell based on all the posts from the thread, it would require A LOT of protection of various sorts. Keeping people from becoming addicted is a different story, as that isn't controllable, only manipulatable. Alfheim Online in the show SAO had the right idea in making aspects of the game world rely on more than just time spent in the game getting, exp items and money. By making physical activity, and other real world activities that keep your physical body in shape a way to further strengthen your character, people are more inclined to get stronger in the real world, as well as the virtual.

[Excogitator]

Oh thankyou moderators. Looks like this has been moved to a new thread. I do apologize for placing this into the wrong topic to begin with. Thankyou aslo @CaelesMessorem, I have enjoyed reading through all of the things you have thus far brought into this conversation.

 

I must have completely missed the Alfheim Online's strategy of using data about the players body in the real world to calculate how powerful the would be in the game. I thought that since Kirito was brought into the world of Alfheim with all of his levels, the leveling up system would be the same as that in SAO. Using the Alfheim strategy to make sure players still take care of themselves would be an excellent idea.

 

You have mostly been able to answer most of the questions I have raised thus far, I wonder if you have some of your own? Since this has been made into a new thread I will try to post up a few more ideas we could try work out, so if we do end up making such a virtual reality device, we will already have some ideas on how to make it more safe, and make sure there aren't any kinks that could cause bigger problems later on.

 

A couple of other things we could possibly talk about:

 

The environmental impact of having so many immersive VR machines - Would they require more energy to run then normal PCs today? I can already imagine how many gamers would want to play on a VR machine, and how many devices it would require to feed that want. I found a link on what impact computers leave on the environment, and the infographic used in this site on video games impact on the environment was also quite interesting. Perhaps this will give us some idea on what to expect with VR machines.

 

Hackers - Like almost every popular (and sometimes not even popular) video games, there will be the risk of hackers trying to manipulate the software and hardware of the devices. I have read a couple of suggestions in the How long till we make a real SAO saying that perhaps we should try and keep the gaming world in a sort of dream state that we could wake up from at any time by removing the hardware. Would this be a viable solution? And how about body manipulation, since we can't move our bodies when within the game. Could someone else send different signals to those parts of your body and use it instead while you are playing?

 

Memory Muddiling - This will probably be one of the most important things we need to think about. Again this might be another reason why writing in a dreamlike fashion rather then straight into your brain could be a good idea, especially just incase there is a glitch in the game or system. I personally don't really know what the effects of re-writing onto the brain could have, hopefully we can figure out ways to make this as safe as possible.

 

Once again, I am not trying to prohibit the manufacture and creation of this device. I would just like to make sure that when we do make it, we also make sure we don't forget about important details. Goodluck to the guys over at "How long until we make a Sword Art Online Nerve Gear Device".

 

If any of you have ideas too, please feel free to add, or replace any you find here. Thanks :lol:

 

Also, just looking through some of the other posts in FullDive Technology I can see that some of these negative effects have been raised and discussed already. Link to Ethics, Safety and Security Concerns.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Excogitator

[CaelesMessorem]

I agree that their use of actual bodily benefits to further strengthen a VR character is a great idea. I actually wouldn't mind starting a topic to see about how that might be incorporated into VRMMOs.

 

Regarding hackers, I mentioned back in the original thread the following in response to eliteshadewind's post:

"Firstly, intrusive methods wouldn't necessarily lead to mind control and thought rewriting, etc. There would naturally be safety implamentations for that exact thing, as well as death preventions and such. I mentioned the idea of using nanoneurons to copy and transmit signals from neurons to a rig, likely a headgear, and from the headgear, convert the signals to binary and send it to your computer, which then converts the binary to commands. Your brain/ body are the controller, the headgear, the processor/ converter and the computer, the console. By utilizing a 3-piece setup, you could double or tripple the preventative measures and checks so nothing harmful reaches your brain."

 

So far as I can tell, in terms of the intrusive methods I've mentioned, if we only target locations of the brain pertaining to senses, even if something were to get through all the saftey protocols in place, the "hacks" could only, in theory, work if they were sensory-related commands. And at that, I posted a correction to my assumption that brain signals were digital. What this would mean as far as hackers go is that they wouldn't necessarily be able to disguise harmful signals as sensory signals, because in order for them to even be read by the brain they have to have particular criterion met ( this is the correction post I mentioned with some of the criterion). Though to be sure of that, I'll have to do some more research into whether or not incorrect signals can enter into different neural pathways, and if so, are they ignored or are they sent to their corresponding location in the brain, the latter of which would be problematic.

[Deepwater6]

In your first post you mention the possible abuse of VR. It took my wife about 15-20 minutes to explain the computer game that my retired mother in-law plays. She plays for roughly 10-14hrs a day everyday. She explained to me how you must build the entire society. Supposedly you have to slowly acquire everything from gas to buying groceries. Building homes, getting and paying off a car and much much more. The interest for the user (I assume) is that you get to build your own society or city and lay it out the way you want. Now this is not VR but I think she is definitely abusing it. My response to my wife after she explained all this to me was "Why doesn't she just live her own life?' :fool:

[CaelesMessorem]

Well, this thread is a discussion about the potential hazards that fully immersing yourself in Virtual Reality could or would bring, which stemmed from this thread. That being said...

 

Funny enough, my mother plays a computer game as well with a similar amount of obsession. I see her once or twice a day, if that. Generally, games are a hobby or way to kill time, but for a lot of people they can be more than that. Some use them as an escape from their lives, whether it be from family or social problems, resposibilities, medical issues, you name it. I personally love the worlds in video games because I know ours can never be what they are, but similarly, I love our world too because it has things in it that can never be replicated. The reason your mother in law could be so into it could be as simple as it being entertaining, or it could be a much deeper problem that she may not even be conscious of. Either way, the only way to know the answer to your question would be to ask her, though I know that could be risky or awkward with in-laws.

[Excogitator]

Hello again CaelesMessorem.

 

Funnily enough, I was just reading your comment on that forum when a new email popped up about this one. Isn't it interesting how the brain itself may be able to protect against harmful "Glitches" or "Hacks" (for lack of better words). I didn't even think about that, but it does make a lot of sense since our brain already tries to correct a lot of things that it percieves as wrong.

 

Looking at your post, you say that there are Specialized Sensory Cells/Nerves (Haha SSSGear ) that are sensitive to specific types of stimuli. Could someone just send out a looped signal playing over the pain stimulation? Or imagine a glitch where it is accidentally looped?

 

Sorry I keep posting back on this "Hacking", must feel sort of repetitive for you to answer. It is always interesting to read your replies.

 

Hey Deepwater6! Welcome to the conversation.

 

I too have been thinking a lot about the obsession that some people have with video games, and not only just in relation to VR, but in games as a whole, and even other obsessive things, such as drugs, or drinking.

 

Perhaps they are all related in some form, possible stemming from how they otherwise interact with the world, or how others around that person treat them. So much that it really is just some form of "escape from their lives" (CaelesMessorem). I don't know if this is something that game makers or electronic developers will have the ability to change, even if they express that they don't want to be a part of that addictive system, and put measures in place to stop that, some people may end up still becoming addicted to their games.

 

I think that we really need a change in how we communicate with each other if we want to stop addiction. If you like animals you might not want to watch this but it is basically about how tests have been performed on rats with drug addictions, who are put into better environments, being allowed to interact with more of their fellows, and in bigger cages, and they overcome those drug addictions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqcwzsaGKbs. I watched it somewhere else in a documentary but unfortunately cannot seem to find that particular one at the moment. Or if instead you feel like reading about it visit this website http://www.brucekalexander.com/articles-speeches/rat-park/148-addiction-the-view-from-rat-park.

 

I don't really know how much this information helps, hopefully it is at least interesting. Personally what I was mainly worried about was that VR games could potentially become one of the most addicting drugs. Saying that though, maybe by the time that sort of technology comes around we won't be so in need of that reality escape.

[CaelesMessorem]

In theory, the signals would only be able reach the parts of the brain that govern the 5 senses. Anything that doesn't fall within the specifications of a certain type of signal or targeted sense could be flagged and withheld from the reconversion process back to electrical signals from binary. You can find a little more about pain and pain receptors here.

 

Also, apparently there are particular neurons in the prefrontal cortex that work to filter out excess sensory information. If sensory signals were filtered through these neurons after reconversion, it may help bolster saftey if somehow masked signals were to get through.

 

The thing about addictions and esecapes is that no matter what safegaurds we have in place, these things will always continue. They stem from human creations, and as long as humans exist, we will continue to be the reason that other humans feel the need to turn to drugs, video games, alcohol and the like. The best thing we can do is communicate in an effor to try and curb these things, as Excogitator said.

Edited May 20, 2015 by CaelesMessorem

[Deepwater6]

On a brighter note, as noted in Excogitator's last post that addictions and other ailments can be overcome by changing the subjects environment. I see no reason why this environment change couldn't come in the form of VR.

 

If we were to take a poverty stricken inner city child, who grows up around constant crime, drugs and violence everyday, and give them a steady stream of VR would that change them? If they were to spend 8hrs a day in a VR simulation of an affluent lifestyle and peaceful neighborhood would they still gravitate to crime as adults? They would still be subject to hours spent in the inner city circumstance, but would a daily steady stream of VR be enough to alter a path?  Something akin to    8hrs.VR-   8hrs.in real life w/family-    8hrs. asleep.

 

Many believe video games incite violence by the users, I see no reason why it couldn't work the other way. Thoughts?

[CaelesMessorem]

I've never believed that media of any form incites violence. If anything, it gives ideas for it, but violence is in our human nature. It's just something we do. I do believe, however, that VR could either deter or stimulate the need for it in people that have a need to commit it. But as with anything else, caution is important. People that experience better will want to remain there more and more. A man who has never been anything but poor that stumbles into a fortune would never want to go back to being poor. It would require a bit of research to see exactly how long exposure to better environments would be acceptable before they no longer want to return to the real world. Again it's a matter of addiction and escape. The only thing we could do is provide some sort of incentive to come back (aside from being able to stay alive, but if people are desperate enough I would bet they'd be willing to die in a VR paradise instead of living in a subpar reality) There are a lot of potentially tricky situations that can stem from this. But as with any new technology, especially something that so closely touches our minds and emotions, it would require research, patience and diligence to prevent any misuse or fatal situations. I may start referring to those that reject reality for virtual reality the "spurned", though I hesitate to give people a potentially negative label simply for wanting a better life or better environment.

[Deepwater6]

CM-  the spurned huh? I like it. I agree research, patience, research, patience, them some additional research should be critical. Since every individual has different levels of thought and emotion it would be hard to pin down a standard for this technology.

 

Getting back to the thread title "negative effects" this technology may bring. Looking at it from the perspective of a person who grew up before cell phones came out, we have all seen how society can transform a civilization so quickly. If this technology were to become prevalent I would be wary of the companies and the political or religious groups that would support them. Just as today with the news media. Some are to the left and some are to the right. It would be your virtually reality to create, but lots of things could be suggested or advertised by the makers inside this reality. As it is today with the news, many people may not even realize it.

 

As I am not well informed in this technology and not sure if VR could give you just a local fantasy, but could be globally connected to other VR users I wrote the following. If this is not case disregard the following paragraph.

 

I also imagine VR changing the real world when enough people are connected. Lets say in everyone's VR there is an option to change laws. When enough of the spurned see that real world problems could be solved because they have seen it happen in VR. They have to ask themselves why wouldn't we do that in the real word? Although this can also bring about war, peace settlements, solve some environmental abuse etc.  

[CaelesMessorem]

I definitely agree with you about being wary of companies and governments controlling VR the way they do reality Deepwater6. In fact I think that if there's an MMO in VR, the only advertising that should be done is by the game dev for game content or things related to their game and nothing else. Save the commercial garbage for when you're surfing the web in VR (which as soon as I wrote that, I realized I hadn't even considered the fact that people will utilize the web while diving. Might make another topic for that). It is also potentially beneficial, though, to have this medium as it could provide a way to commit peaceful negotions for a variety of things. The downside for that is the second it becomes a platform for political and diplomatic use, it also becomes a platform for battle, sabotage, etc which would obviously cause issues in the real world.

[Excogitator]

Interesting concept of having real world negotiations taking place within a virtual world. I wonder if we decide to have political discussions in such a world, would we also host virtual wars with real life consequences, such as people who die within the virtual reality die in real life, or to play you have to pay millions of real life resources such as food or water, and losing means to lose those resources. Would this be considered a good or bad thing, compared to what we do today, since we are no longer killing people (in the latter option) but we still lose a lot of valuble resouces?

 

And yes CaelesMessorem, I too hadn't even though of the idea of surfing the internet using VR, but of course it does seem like a logical step if this technology were to be introduced. One concept I had thought of however, was what if we were to link ourselves up to the internet using VR and re-write our brains (sort of matrix style). Imagine how fast we could learn things using that technology. But, I am kind of skeptical about that sort of "re-programming" of the brain, and can see a lot of flaws in it already (such as it being more susceptible to "hacking"). I am also kind of against the idea of learning in this way, since to me it seems very unnatural, but if it could help people who have diffuculty learning perhaps it would be a good thing?

 

Another topic I would like to bring up is, if we make a VR game that is hyper-realistic (super advanced graphics, perma-death, survival, etc..) would people begin to forget which world was real? Or, have memories from this fake world being brought into the real world, memories that could harm those around them (such as someone they know in real life killing off their friend)? And if we consider this to be a problem, should we intentionally move away from creating games that are so hyper-realistic?

[CaelesMessorem]

To your first point Excogitator, likely we would have real life consequences, though I don't think it would be as drastic as killing someone off because of something that happened in the virtual world (though I'm sure they'd do it anyway just because). And while technically it would be a good thing that we are replacing the need to use human lives to settle petty disagreements, using VR for these kinds of platforms would lead to sabotage of the equipment to kill people off from VR, cause more real world issues because of a disagreement with something that ahppened in VR, and essentially would change the way the technology is used until it stops altogether. It's best to avoid it being used for this.

 

To your second point, from what people in both original VR forums have discussed, theres nothing in the way the technology would be set up that would directly allow that (in theory). In fact, it's likely the case that that exact thing will be prevented as much as physically possible, both in hardware and in saftey protocols in the software. The only way we would be able to learn while in VR is if we retain our memories end experiences from VR after we have disconnected. Kirito learned to use the sword in SAO and continued to do so after he had left due to his ingame experience of using it. Much in the same way, we would learn through practice just like in reality. The only problem is, I have no idea if we can retain experiences from VR if our ability to retain experience and memory isn't directly targeted by the Virtual Reality device. The second we open up that capability is the moment that it gets taken advantage of.

 

And lastly, your third point. Games like the one you mentioned would likely be a genre within VR games. Maybe not permadeath, but something similar. Like I had said in one of the forums in response to the potential for PTSD from VR games, it's all in the way you portray death and other circumstances. We want to make it LOOK and FEEL realistic while we play, while still showing signs that its just VR. In SAO, the sun had an awesome ring design around it, different parts of the first floor were placed on platforms at different heights (which you see in the background on the first episode). By making it believable through its look, but still reminding you it's virtual through its portrayal, we may be able to make sure people don't get confused. And it would only be harmful depending on the way it's portrayed, and if there are any real world consequences. Here's the link to the response about PTSD in VR