zabrak999 Posted August 27, 2015 Report Posted August 27, 2015 Hey bros I have am idea for Chinese sky lanterns: A sky lantern that'll: 1.) Take off and fly at a steady pace without a flame 2.) Material will either eventually evaporate in the sky, or shrink down to the size of a quarter. So, are either of these possible? Input would he fantastic appreciated... ...I understands that balloons with helium of course exist, but rather I'm thinking of something that'll make it take off at a nice steady pace. Something that'd resemble the slow and assured take off of a flame, you know Quote
Turtle Posted August 30, 2015 Report Posted August 30, 2015 So you could build the balloon just as a conventional Chinese lantern and fill it with hot air on the ground. That will act just like the conventional lantern in lift-off and flight. For a light I was thinking a small prism made of wood splints and covered with some Mylar® & mounted inside the balloon which you then shine a high intensity light on which will illuminate the balloon. Other than the small bit of Mylar® it's all biodegradable. Quote
zabrak999 Posted August 31, 2015 Author Report Posted August 31, 2015 Bros! I think I came up with an idea.. Within the chinese lantern packaging, there'd be a packet of either helium or hydrogen gas - one of those two - that you'd attach to the lantern, to have it lift off. There'd be a button on the packet of helium/hydrogen, where it'd release the gas into the packet. So, you'd out and fully expand the chinese lantern, then attach the packet of gas onto it, then press a button on the packet to release gas into it, which would then set the lantern off into the sky. Would that work? Having a packet of floating gas that you'd attach to the lantern, to have the lantern lift off with it? Again, when ready you'd press a button on the packet, which would then interact with it by releasing the needed gas for liftoff. Helium is pretty expensive I'm reading, as it's evidently a genuinely rare material that's only found in a handful of spots in the world. Hydrogen however, is insanely cheaper. There's risks (flammable,potential leaks etc), but they seem to be irrelevant for this product; there'll be no flame around the lantern, and on the chinese lantern packaging, it'll clearly be labelled to keep contents inside package (to avoid gas leak from packet) until ready to use. So, how could we incorporate hydrogen gas into the lantern? Would my hydrogen packet idea work? How could we safely store the hydrogen gas into a packet, that'd start to slowly release for a period of time, through a push of a button? Quote
Turtle Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Bros! I think I came up with an idea.. Within the chinese lantern packaging, there'd be a packet of either helium or hydrogen gas - one of those two - that you'd attach to the lantern, to have it lift off.... So, how could we incorporate hydrogen gas into the lantern? Would my hydrogen packet idea work? How could we safely store the hydrogen gas into a packet, that'd start to slowly release for a period of time, through a push of a button?First, since you are saying 'lantern', I presume there's a light in this thing? If so, what kind of light is it? :lightbulb As to the hydrogen, the 'packet' would have to be a pressure cylinder & the slow release would require a regulator. I'm not up on my gas laws, but at sea level 1 cubic meter of hydrogen has 1.202 kg of lift. So whether it will work or not all depends on the specific weights of the gas cylinder, the regulator, the lights, and the balloon, and then of course the exact volume of the balloon. Suppose we assume a balloon volume of 1m3 then we need to keep the mass below 1 kilogram for it to rise. Now comes the part I'm too rusty to calculate which is how small a cylinder can we compress 1m3 of hydrogen into & at what pressure. The gas laws aside, I think a bit of linear algebra might be needed to find the ideal size. As you might expect I'm pretty rusty on my linear algebra too. I think that gives a good idea of what is involved in the engineering. None of which however will meet your criterion #2, "Material will either eventually evaporate in the sky, or shrink down to the size of a quarter.". Dropping a kilo of stuff from even a few hundred feet is gonna leave a mark. :bad: Edited August 31, 2015 by Turtle Quote
Turtle Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) OK, I tried an estimate. Check my work. I found some small commercial cylinders of compressed helium. Helium cylinders Specs: length 5" inner capacity 95.5 cc burst pressure 570 kgf/cm2 Converting =8,107.31 psi filling pressure 190 kgf/cm2 Converting = 2702.44 pounds per sq. inch (psi) Then we find what the volume of the gas is when let out into the balloon at sea level. Volume of Gas in Cylinder When the temperature is kept constant, we can derive the equation: P (1) x V (1) = P (2) x V (2) Where: P (1) is the pressure of the compressed gas in the cylinder (psi) V (1) is the internal volume of the cylinder P (2) is the atmospheric pressure (1 atm - 14.7 psi) V (2) is the volume of gas at pressure P (2) (cc).Substituting: P (1) is 2,702.44 psi V (1) is the internal volume of cylinder 95.5 cc P (2) is 14.7 psi V (2) is the unknown volume of gas Solving: V (2) = [p (1) x V (1)]/P (2) = (2 702.44 psi x 95.5 cc)/14.7 psi = 17,556.66 cc Converting to m3: 0.017556659999999998 Cubic Meter Then to get a cubic meter of helium in the balloon we need 1/.0176= 56.8 cylinders. Helium gives a bit less lift than hydrogen; 1.114 kg/m3. They don't give the weight of the cylinders, but I suspect 57 of them is a good portion of a kilo. Definitely not small as a quarter. We could over-pressurize the cylinders to use fewer of them I suppose, but there's good reason they don't fill them more. :ebomb: Doesn't look good bros & sisses. Edited August 31, 2015 by Turtle Quote
zabrak999 Posted September 3, 2015 Author Report Posted September 3, 2015 Alright guys, I think I came up with a solution to all this... First, to put things into perspective - I wanted to create replicate sky lanterns, in that it'll be a balloon that'll slowly take off well beyond into the air on a lit voyage. All without actually having a cumbersome flame, along with avoiding any clean-up litter afterwords. I thought an attached helium/hydrogen packet would work, but seems like neither would be appropriate, until hydrogen becomes safer or helium becomes cheaper (not in our lifetime). However, I just now thought of a possible solution to all of this: The bottom of the balloon won't be open at all. To have the balloon take off into the sky, the user will fill it once with helium on the ground, which would have it take off without any reliance on anything as it goes into the sky. So, the material will be folded like a standard deflated balloon, then it'd inflate up and launch into the sky with helium. Here are ways in which this could happen: 1.) The package would include not only the balloons, but it'd also contain a handheld, portable canister of helium - some small device with a valve that contains helium. It'd be good for say, 20 uses or something similar - perhaps even only 5 or 10 uses. ^ Could this be possible? Handheld & portable stored helium canisters, that'd be included in the packaging? 2.) The balloon would eventually pop itself when high in the air, to avoid it deflating and littering. ^Does anybody have a clue as to how this could be pulled off? However it'd happen, it'd need to avoid littering. I first thought of a timed self-releasing tack that'd be attached to the balloon, but that'd of course end in sharp tacks falling from the sky, so that won't do. I thought of attaching a biodegradable packet that'd include some liquid or material that'd pop it - however, having the torn apart fall from the popped balloon would seem redundant. What about attaching to the balloon something micro-small, that'l eventually produce enough heat to pop the balloon? Really, I think that's what would need to happen - something that the user would properly stick to the balloon and activate before take off, that would eventually heat up and pop the balloon. A programmed heat that'd pop it way after a long period of it being in the air. 3.) To have the balloon shine as bright as a flame in a sky lantern in the night sky, I'm thinking that LED light(s), encased in ultra reflective material might do it. The LED light(s) would be stored inside the balloon, so the balloon would inflate and lift off with it already inside. ^ Could this work? What are some ways to have it brightly flash to brightly illuminate the entire balloon, so it could be seen from the ground, when it's off in the sky? 4.) Material. What material could inflate from helium, aside from latex? In other words, I need to have it blow up into shapely objects (the draw for this product will be out these sky lights will mainly serve as a seasonal gift - sky lanterns based off halloween, thanksgiving, christmas, valentine's day, etc. etc objects). Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote
Turtle Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Alright guys, I think I came up with a solution to all this... First, to put things into perspective - I wanted to create replicate sky lanterns, in that it'll be a balloon that'll slowly take off well beyond into the air on a lit voyage. All without actually having a cumbersome flame, along with avoiding any clean-up litter afterwords. I thought an attached helium/hydrogen packet would work, but seems like neither would be appropriate, until hydrogen becomes safer or helium becomes cheaper (not in our lifetime). However, I just now thought of a possible solution to all of this: The bottom of the balloon won't be open at all. To have the balloon take off into the sky, the user will fill it once with helium on the ground, which would have it take off without any reliance on anything as it goes into the sky. So, the material will be folded like a standard deflated balloon, then it'd inflate up and launch into the sky with helium. Here are ways in which this could happen: 1.) The package would include not only the balloons, but it'd also contain a handheld, portable canister of helium - some small device with a valve that contains helium. It'd be good for say, 20 uses or something similar - perhaps even only 5 or 10 uses. ^ Could this be possible? Handheld & portable stored helium canisters, that'd be included in the packaging?OK to this point I think. (Hydrogen will never change its flammable or corrosive properties however.) For me to give a reply about whether a 'hand held' canister will work and/or how many uses it would be good for, you have to tell me the exact volume of the balloon or its dimensions that I can calculate the volume from. 2.) The balloon would eventually pop itself when high in the air, to avoid it deflating and littering. ^Does anybody have a clue as to how this could be pulled off? However it'd happen, it'd need to avoid littering. I first thought of a timed self-releasing tack that'd be attached to the balloon, but that'd of course end in sharp tacks falling from the sky, so that won't do.No matter how or at what height the balloon deflates the pieces will fall to the ground. Biodegradable paper seems the logical choice to me. 3.) To have the balloon shine as bright as a flame in a sky lantern in the night sky, I'm thinking that LED light(s), encased in ultra reflective material might do it. The LED light(s) would be stored inside the balloon, so the balloon would inflate and lift off with it already inside. ^ Could this work? What are some ways to have it brightly flash to brightly illuminate the entire balloon, so it could be seen from the ground, when it's off in the sky?Yes LEDs should work, but I have put them on kites before and they were nowhere as bright as I expected. Some sort of reflector may help, possibly of the prism & mylar type I earlier described. Keep in mind the lights and battery and reflector will fall to the ground when the balloon deflates and batteries contain toxic chemicals. 4.) Material. What material could inflate from helium, aside from latex?Again, biodegradable paper. Tissue paper is light and some colored stuff has a surface treatment that might make it hold the helium for longer. In other words, I need to have it blow up into shapely objects (the draw for this product will be out these sky lights will mainly serve as a seasonal gift - sky lanterns based off halloween, thanksgiving, christmas, valentine's day, etc. etc objects). Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Got it. You're welcome. :) Quote
zabrak999 Posted September 4, 2015 Author Report Posted September 4, 2015 OK to this point I think. (Hydrogen will never change its flammable or corrosive properties however.) For me to give a reply about whether a 'hand held' canister will work and/or how many uses it would be good for, you have to tell me the exact volume of the balloon or its dimensions that I can calculate the volume from. No matter how or at what height the balloon deflates the pieces will fall to the ground. Biodegradable paper seems the logical choice to me. Yes LEDs should work, but I have put them on kites before and they were nowhere as bright as I expected. Some sort of reflector may help, possibly of the prism & mylar type I earlier described. Keep in mind the lights and battery and reflector will fall to the ground when the balloon deflates and batteries contain toxic chemicals. Again, biodegradable paper. Tissue paper is light and some colored stuff has a surface treatment that might make it hold the helium for longer. Got it. You're welcome. :) I'm going to revolutionize the industry by making sky lanterns that'll be various objects - seasonal, pop culture, etc. So in regards to the shapes, they'd vary. We need to find a size that's relatively the same as a traditional sky lantern, to satisfy the consumer I'd imagine. A size where the packed-in handheld helium canister could have up to 10 uses, preferably, though settling on 5 would be fine a well. IS there any way to find this out, sir? And more importantly - do handheld helium canisters exist? The sky light would absolutely need to vanish once in the air for a period of time - it's the only way where this could get mainstream attraction. If the material was out of a traditional latex balloon, there'd be a thousand ways where we could think of something. Unfortunately, a latex balloon can't be made to replicate pop culture characters etc. Biodegradable paper with some sort of a frame could do it, but how could we have it vanish in the air? The LED lights+attached micro watch battery wouldn't be a terrible issue, compared to the major one which is having balloon material disappear in the air. Quote
zabrak999 Posted September 4, 2015 Author Report Posted September 4, 2015 So really, the material sounds to be the biggest issue.. For the material, I need to think of something that could vanish in the sky... If the material was latex (like a traditional balloon), then there could be a thousand possibilities where we'd attach something to make it self-pop... ...However, it's pretty much impossible to create a decent pop culture character out of a latex balloon. Preferably, something that resembles this material: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Bouncy.castle.arp.jpg https://www.google.com/search?q=Inflatable+costume&safe=off&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAmoVChMIq-rN_dLcxwIVkpSICh2ddwuv&biw=1366&bih=643 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Union-rat.jpg Something like those ^ But what the hell could make it vanish in the air, after a period of time? If the material was some paper material, then we could attach some timed-release liquid that would dissolve it..Could that be possible? How? Help would be FANTASTICALLY appreciated Quote
Turtle Posted September 4, 2015 Report Posted September 4, 2015 So really, the material sounds to be the biggest issue.. For the material, I need to think of something that could vanish in the sky. ... Something like those ^ But what the hell could make it vanish in the air, after a period of time? If the material was some paper material, then we could attach some timed-release liquid that would dissolve it..Could that be possible? How? Help would be FANTASTICALLY appreciated This stuff isn't cheap, but it seems to fit the bill. If you needed a lot and were a manufacturer you might be able to get it in bulk at wholesale. Water Dissolving Paper This is real paper that can be written on and used in most copiers and printers. The secret lies in the fact that the paper is made of Sodium Carboxyl Methyl Cellulose (no, really, we didn't make that up.) It dissolves in cold water, hot water, steam, and most aqueous solutions. It's the perfect writing surface for secret agents, and a great way to teach about biodegradable products for waste reduction since this paper is non-toxic and environmentally safe. We recently ran a sheet of this through a color laser printer - when we put it in water and gave it a stir, the paper dissolved but the printing did not - we had a glass full of floating letters! You will get standard 8.5 X 11 inch (21.5 X 28 cm) sheets of paper. Available in packs of 15, 30 or 100 sheets. Send us a note and let us know how YOU used the dissolving paper. Quote
zabrak999 Posted September 4, 2015 Author Report Posted September 4, 2015 This stuff isn't cheap, but it seems to fit the bill. If you needed a lot and were a manufacturer you might be able to get it in bulk at wholesale.Water Dissolving Paper Fascinating. But, did you click the above links, that displayed examples of inflatable objects? That could work too I just wouldn't know how it'd vanish in the air... Water Dissolving Paper is absolutely brilliant, I'm just unsure how it could inflate into seasonal iconic objects etc, from helium. . Wait a minute.... I came up with an idea .... Take Santa Claus for example. There'd be attached paper made pieces for his head, cap, bears, arms, legs, that would all inflate too as helium is getting spread throughout it. ?? Quote
Turtle Posted September 4, 2015 Report Posted September 4, 2015 Fascinating. But, did you click the above links, that displayed examples of inflatable objects? That could work too I just wouldn't know how it'd vanish in the air... Water Dissolving Paper is absolutely brilliant, I'm just unsure how it could inflate into seasonal iconic objects etc, from helium. . Wait a minute.... I came up with an idea .... Take Santa Claus for example. There'd be attached paper made pieces for his head, cap, bears, arms, legs, that would all inflate too as helium is getting spread throughout it. ??I did look at the images of the balloon characters and costumes, yes. You would build your disappearing paper balloons in a similar manner by gluing patterned pieces together to form the figure. Obviously water-based glue wouldn't work so you'd have to find the right adhesive. Quote
zabrak999 Posted September 6, 2015 Author Report Posted September 6, 2015 (edited) I did look at the images of the balloon characters and costumes, yes. You would build your disappearing paper balloons in a similar manner by gluing patterned pieces together to form the figure. Obviously water-based glue wouldn't work so you'd have to find the right adhesive.Brilliant, brilliant. I think I've decided that there'd be a portable canister of helium that'd come packaged with the balloons would be used once to light it off. The material would be water dissolving paper - paper that'd biodegrade incredibly easily, easily within a day or less. The balloon would have an ultra bright LED light (powered by a micro watch battery) that's surrounded by a reflective material to make it extra bright...So it can be brightly be seen from the ground. That could work as a mass producing product, right? I'd like to start by doing holidays first, so a lot of these would be holiday characters and items, but the possibilities would be endless. I believe I don't even need to have the balloon disappear in the sky, if the material is going to be instantly biodegradable - dissolving paper would be amongst the fastest biodegradable material on earth. So, if I patched together this dissolving paper to make a character (santa clause etc), would filling helium inside it blow it up to a proportional character? Would there need to be anything else that'd be required to make his arms, legs, head etc inflate out? I'd imagine that at the bottom of every balloon, there'd be a spot to fill in helium, to have it inflate out and lift off. here's some examples of dissolving paper:http://www.daymarktechnologies.com/categories/Dissolving-Paper/7/1http://www.sulky.com/item/sulky-paper-solvy-stabilizer-white-85-x-11-pkg-12-sheetshttp://www.dissolvo.com/water-soluble-paper/ this site has colored dissolving paper:http://www.aquasolpaper.com/ Edited September 6, 2015 by zabrak999 Quote
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