Hi Tech Civilization Possible On Titan?

[Moontanman]

Let's do a mind experiment, if life exists on Titan, and some people think there is some indication it might, it's unlikely to be anything more than microbes...

 

BUT!

 

What if complex life evolved there and an intelligence arose, how advanced is it likely they could become? 

 

I'll start by pointing out that metals we are familiar with would be unlikely to exist on Titan, no copper, no gold, no silver, no iron and no uranium! 

 

Would the lack of metals as we know them prohibit or at least limit a high tech civilization on Titan or are there ways around this? 

 

Some metals at least that cannot be useful in their elemental form on Earth would probably be impurities in the ice surface where frozen water rakes the place of silicates. Can we speculate with at least some confidence on technology under the conditions on Titan? 

 

[CraigD]

If there’s intelligent life on Titan, I can imagine it having high culture, science, and technology, though following a very different history than on Earth.

 

Titan may have a huge subsurface liquid water ocean, in which case it might have life not unlike Earth’s. No aquatic life on Earth is much technological, but being lightless and likely interacting with liquid hydrocarbons and ammonia in complex ways, Titan’s water ocean would be biologically little like Earth’s, so who knows what evolutionary paths life in it might follow?

 

As has been much speculated, surface or airborne life on Titan likely couldn’t be liquid water-based, so would be utterly weird by terrestrial standards.

 

Whether subsurface, surface, or airborne, if intelligent beings on Titan developed science, they would be bereft one of the great influences on Earth: a view of Sun, stars, and planets in the night sky, because Titan’s atmosphere is never transparent to visible light.

[GAHD]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_the_Lifemaker

novel detailing first contact between Earth explorers and the Taloids, clanking replicators who have colonized Saturn's moon Titan.

good book

[Moontanman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_the_Lifemaker

 

novel detailing first contact between Earth explorers and the Taloids, clanking replicators who have colonized Saturn's moon Titan.

 

good book

 

 

It is a good book, I've read Hogan is a great writer. 

[Moontanman]

If there’s intelligent life on Titan, I can imagine it having high culture, science, and technology, though following a very different history than on Earth.

 

Titan may have a huge subsurface liquid water ocean, in which case it might have life not unlike Earth’s. No aquatic life on Earth is much technological, but being lightless and likely interacting with liquid hydrocarbons and ammonia in complex ways, Titan’s water ocean would be biologically little like Earth’s, so who knows what evolutionary paths life in it might follow?

 

As has been much speculated, surface or airborne life on Titan likely couldn’t be liquid water-based, so would be utterly weird by terrestrial standards.

 

Whether subsurface, surface, or airborne, if intelligent beings on Titan developed science, they would be bereft one of the great influences on Earth: a view of Sun, stars, and planets in the night sky, because Titan’s atmosphere is never transparent to visible light.

 

 

Would they be stuck in a perpetual stone age? I am trying to figure out a path to technology on a Titan like world, with no fire, no metals as we know them, I am having trouble working out a reasonable path to technology.

 

Some metals might be dissolved as salts in the Ice crust, sodium and calcium come to mind, on earth they cannot be made into physical object do to oxygen, water and temps on our planet but such metals should be stable on titan but extracting them would be the trick...

 

BTW I am assuming surface life.. 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Moontanman

[GAHD]

It is a good book, I've read Hogan is a great writer. 

I particularly liked how some components were solid mercury, others "room temperature" (for Titan) semiconductors. The "out of temperature band" life ideas were always the more interesting leads from ET fiction. Humans burn with an infernal flame from there perspective; melting flesh with but a touch.

 

 

I don' see why you assume the metals don't exist: it gets and has gotten quite a few impacts. Melting them thermicly would be difficult, but chemical refineries are possible.

 

Methane as the common factor means it would be the "universal solvent" of the atmospheric redox system. What's soluble in methane? Quite a bit.

If there is a sub-surface ocean, we might look there for "higher life" something like our Cephalopod, the built-in chemical squirter and it's intereacting with a common element could even be the "tool creation" catalyst for their society, akin to our promethian fire and nudgeing them down the path of chemical refineries and higher society.

 

 

 

.

[Moontanman]

I particularly liked how some components were solid mercury, others "room temperature" (for Titan) semiconductors. The "out of temperature band" life ideas were always the more interesting leads from ET fiction. Humans burn with an infernal flame from there perspective; melting flesh with but a touch.

 

 

I don' see why you assume the metals don't exist: it gets and has gotten quite a few impacts. Melting them thermicly would be difficult, but chemical refineries are possible.

 

Methane as the common factor means it would be the "universal solvent" of the atmospheric redox system. What's soluble in methane? Quite a bit.

If there is a sub-surface ocean, we might look there for "higher life" something like our Cephalopod, the built-in chemical squirter and it's intereacting with a common element could even be the "tool creation" catalyst for their society, akin to our promethian fire and nudgeing them down the path of chemical refineries and higher society.

 

 

.

 

 

The surface is ice, anything not dissolved in water or lighter than water would have sunk to the core of the planet. Heavy metals would be lost to the core before a solid crust could form, water is not dense enough to retain any metals except in solution as salts and other chemicals dissolved in water. Heavy metals would be rare elements like mercury, lead, iron, even aluminum... 

[fahrquad]

Titan has rivers and lakes of liquid methane on the surface.  The radiation from Saturn would make development of any higher life forms very unlikely.  If there is anything alive on Titan (or Ganymede, or Europa) it is doubtful we would recognize it as such.

 

 

Oops, forgot link.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_%28moon%29

Edited December 21, 2015 by fahrquad

[Moontanman]

Titan has rivers and lakes of liquid methane on the surface.  The radiation from Saturn would make development of any higher life forms very unlikely.  If there is anything alive on Titan (or Ganymede, or Europa) it is doubtful we would recognize it as such.

 

 

Oops, forgot link.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_%28moon%29

 

 

I am not suggesting that complex life exists on Titan, I want to discuss the path to technology on Titan if it had a hypothetical native civilization on it's surface. 

 

Do you have a citation about the radiation environment at Titan being too high to allow surface life? 

[fahrquad]

Radiation on Saturn

3 Jul , 2008 by Fraser Cain

Just like Jupiter, Saturn radiates out more energy that it draws in from the Sun. In fact, Saturn radiates 2.3 times more energy than it receives from the Sun.

You can also check out these cool telescopes that will help you see the beauty of planet Saturn.

         

This has been a bit of a mystery to scientists. But the solution lies in the fact that Saturn’s atmosphere is relatively poor in helium, compared to Jupiter. Scientists think it cooled faster than Jupiter after initial formation, and then helium droplets formed when the temperature of the atmosphere dropped below 15 K. These droplets have been falling down into the core of Saturn, heating it up, and generating the heat.

 

When NASA’s Cassini first arrived at Saturn, the spacecraft detected lightning storms and radiation belts around the planet. It even found a brand new radiation belt located inside the rings of Saturn. The belts extend from about 139,000 km from Saturn’s center out to 362,000, and contain highly charged particles.

Here’s an article about Cassini finding the radiation belts around Saturn, and another about strange radio emissions coming from Saturn, related to the belts.

Here’s more information on the radiation belts, and a nice photograph from NASA.

We have recorded two episodes of Astronomy Cast just about Saturn. The first is Episode 59: Saturn, and the second is Episode 61: Saturn’s Moons.

 

http://www.universetoday.com/15381/radiation-on-saturn/

[Moontanman]

Radiation on Saturn

3 Jul , 2008 by Fraser Cain

Just like Jupiter, Saturn radiates out more energy that it draws in from the Sun. In fact, Saturn radiates 2.3 times more energy than it receives from the Sun.

You can also check out these cool telescopes that will help you see the beauty of planet Saturn.

         

This has been a bit of a mystery to scientists. But the solution lies in the fact that Saturn’s atmosphere is relatively poor in helium, compared to Jupiter. Scientists think it cooled faster than Jupiter after initial formation, and then helium droplets formed when the temperature of the atmosphere dropped below 15 K. These droplets have been falling down into the core of Saturn, heating it up, and generating the heat.

 

When NASA’s Cassini first arrived at Saturn, the spacecraft detected lightning storms and radiation belts around the planet. It even found a brand new radiation belt located inside the rings of Saturn. The belts extend from about 139,000 km from Saturn’s center out to 362,000, and contain highly charged particles.

Here’s an article about Cassini finding the radiation belts around Saturn, and another about strange radio emissions coming from Saturn, related to the belts.

Here’s more information on the radiation belts, and a nice photograph from NASA.

We have recorded two episodes of Astronomy Cast just about Saturn. The first is Episode 59: Saturn, and the second is Episode 61: Saturn’s Moons.

 

http://www.universetoday.com/15381/radiation-on-saturn/

 

 

 

I couldn't find any reference to radiation belts at Saturn having any hypothesized effect on the habitability of Titan, Titan has more atmosphere than the earth both in pressure and mass. On Earth the atmosphere protects the surface from charged particles that get by our magnetic field.

 

On top of that this thread is not about the habitability of Titan, this thread is about hypothetical paths to technology if life did occur there... 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_on_Titan

[CraigD]

The radiation from Saturn would make development of any higher life forms very unlikely.

The magnetopause, (where solar wind radiation begins to dominate), Saturn’s radiation belt (that is, belts of free electrons and ionized atomic nuclei, mostly free protons) is somewhere around 1200000 to 1330000 km. At 1186680 to 1257060 km, Titan is nearly outside it, so practically free of the influence of these particles.

 

Although Saturn doesn’t just reflect sunlight, but radiates a significant amount due to its internal heat, its radiation is still much lower energy than Earth’s, with a black body temperature of 81.1 K vs Earth’s 243.3 and the Sun’s 5778. (source http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/saturnfact.html)

 

In short, I don’t think Titan is made inhospitable to life because of radiation. Rather, the main challenge for life on Titan is the lack of radiation, resulting in Titan’s being very cold (surface average around 94 K)

[Moontanman]

The magnetopause, (where solar wind radiation begins to dominate), Saturn’s radiation belt (that is, belts of free electrons and ionized atomic nuclei, mostly free protons) is somewhere around 1200000 to 1330000 km. At 1186680 to 1257060 km, Titan is nearly outside it, so practically free of the influence of these particles.

 

Although Saturn doesn’t just reflect sunlight, but radiates a significant amount due to its internal heat, its radiation is still much lower energy than Earth’s, with a black body temperature of 81.1 K vs Earth’s 243.3 and the Sun’s 5778. (source http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/saturnfact.html)

 

In short, I don’t think Titan is made inhospitable to life because of radiation. Rather, the main challenge for life on Titan is the lack of radiation, resulting in Titan’s being very cold (surface average around 94 K)

 

 

Again, you are probably correct but this thread is about potential pathways to technology by already extant life on the surface of such a planet. The problem of the missing hydrogen is interesting for the possibility of life and cell walls have been hypothesized to be able to form in liquid methane but pathways to high tech.

 

What if complex life evolved there and an intelligence arose, how advanced is it likely they could become? 

 

[CraigD]

Again, you are probably correct but this thread is about potential pathways to technology by already extant life on the surface of such a planet.

We did get a little off topic, veering into subject of the possibility of life on Titan, with me having an bout of SIWOTI syndrome. :)

 

Looking at material engineering – an essential component of technology as we know it – I think the key concept when looking at differences between worlds like Earth and Titan is the effect of temperature on materials.

 

As you’ve noted, Moontanman, it might be difficult for people like us humans to mine metals on Titan, troubling, since alloys of iron are one of our favorite building materials here on nice warm (280 K) Earth. A key reason for this is that iron is a solid at this temperature, with a melting point of 1811 K, not too difficult to melt, and pretty common.

 

Water ice isn’t a very good building material on Earth, because water is often a liquid. But on cold (94 K) Titan, water is a hard solid, not too difficult to melt, and even more common than iron on Earth.

 

Intuitively, building thing from materials that would be liquids on Earth feels weird, but I think this is just an intuitive bias. On a cold world, it could be a perfectly reasonable approach. Just as we on Earth don’t worry that many of our popular materials would be liquid on Mercury or Venus, engineers on Titan wouldn’t worry that popular materials there would be liquid on Earth.

[Moontanman]

We did get a little off topic, veering into subject of the possibility of life on Titan, with me having an bout of SIWOTI syndrome. :)

 

Looking at material engineering – an essential component of technology as we know it – I think the key concept when looking at differences between worlds like Earth and Titan is the effect of temperature on materials.

 

As you’ve noted, Moontanman, it might be difficult for people like us humans to mine metals on Titan, troubling, since alloys of iron are one of our favorite building materials here on nice warm (280 K) Earth. A key reason for this is that iron is a solid at this temperature, with a melting point of 1811 K, not too difficult to melt, and pretty common.

 

Water ice isn’t a very good building material on Earth, because water is often a liquid. But on cold (94 K) Titan, water is a hard solid, not too difficult to melt, and even more common than iron on Earth.

 

Intuitively, building thing from materials that would be liquids on Earth feels weird, but I think this is just an intuitive bias. On a cold world, it could be a perfectly reasonable approach. Just as we on Earth don’t worry that many of our popular materials would be liquid on Mercury or Venus, engineers on Titan wouldn’t worry that popular materials there would be liquid on Earth.

 

 

On Titan building with ICE would be like us building with granite, so are we talking about going no further than megalithic culture?  

[fahrquad]

IMHO, if life cannot exist, then technology cannot exist.  A potential pathway to technological is kind of a moot point. 

[Moontanman]

IMHO, if life cannot exist, then technology cannot exist.  A potential pathway to technological is kind of a moot point. 

 

 

Well I am assuming that life does exist! No one can say life is impossible on Titan and some scientists think that there is a chemical signature that suggests life using liquid methane as a solvent, 

 

I am asking about pathways to technology similar to our own at such low temps.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_on_Titan