Matters Of Time

[Maine farmer]

Okay, this is may be the result of a wandering mind while I was cleaning out the barn, so please feel free to shoot holes in my logic.

 

If a photon were to have consciousness, from it's perspective, Time would not pass, so It would have to be everywhere in it's path simultaneously.  That would mean that if a photon were to travel the entire universe, the entire universe would appear to be  a single point .  That would also mean that if the photon were to observe the universe, everything that happened in the universe would be happening  simultaneously.  

 

On another note, time seems to exist only as a result of things happening, so if somehow, some day, someone figures out how to travel backwards in time, that someone would have to find a way to make everything happen backwards, and if the uncertainty principle holds for forward time, it would have to hold for backwards time, in which case there would have to be many possible pasts, and it would be impossible to go back to the same past we remember.

 

Good thing I am tired, or this would keep me awake at night!

[A-wal]

Yep. Infinite length contraction and infinite time dilation are effectively the same thing, they stop becoming separate for anything moving at the speed of light. Infinite length contraction means the photons path is compressed to zero distance. Infinite time dilation means the photon travels that path in no time, again making it effectively zero distance. Technically I wouldn't say that anything can 'happen' from this perspective.

I don't believe in backwards time travel but another way of looking at it is if you were able to instantly travel back in time and you made no changes at all to the time line it would still turn out differently. If it weren't for that you could argue that it proves that free will is an illusion. Does the uncertainty principle allow consciousness to exist? ;)

Edited December 24, 2015 by A-wal

[NotBrad]

Yep. Infinite length contraction and infinite time dilation are effectively the same thing, they stop becoming separate for anything moving at the speed of light. Infinite length contraction means the photons path is compressed to zero distance. Infinite time dilation means the photon travels that path in no time, again making it effectively zero distance. Technically I wouldn't say that anything can 'happen' from this perspective.

 

I don't believe in backwards time travel but another way of looking at it is if you were able to instantly travel back in time and you made no changes at all to the time line it would still turn out differently. If it weren't for that you could argue that it proves that free will is an illusion. Does the uncertainty principle allow consciousness to exist? ;)

Honestly I pretty much assume that I am the only person that really exists as an independent conscious entity and that everyone else's personalities are the product of simulation designed to keep me from fully realizing my potential. (at which point I would break free of said simulation and rule whatever exists beyond the edge of the fourth dimension)

Edited December 26, 2015 by NotBrad

[CraigD]

If a photon were to have consciousness, from it's perspective, Time would not pass, so It would have to be everywhere in it's path simultaneously. That would mean that if a photon were to travel the entire universe, the entire universe would appear to be a single point . That would also mean that if the photon were to observe the universe, everything that happened in the universe would be happening simultaneously.

Yep. Infinite length contraction and infinite time dilation are effectively the same thing, they stop becoming separate for anything moving at the speed of light. Infinite length contraction means the photons path is compressed to zero distance. Infinite time dilation means the photon travels that path in no time, again making it effectively zero distance. Technically I wouldn't say that anything can 'happen' from this perspective.

I agree with Farming guy and A-wal, with some semantic and technical quibbles.

 

Rather than saying that our Hypothetical Photon Person (for simplicity, I’ll call anything conscious a “person”) “sees” (more on this troubled concept later) everything in the universe happening simultaneously, or not happening at all, I’d say it sees it happening all at once, an infinite amount of happening in an infinitesimal amount of time.

 

Since relativistic length contraction occurs in the direction of travel, not all directions, the universe wouldn’t look like a point to HPP, but like a plane. In any direction at right angles to their direction of travel, the universe would have its usual, big ‘ole length – but would still happen, infinitely time dilated, all at once.

 

If the evolution of the universe follows most widely assumed models, HPP’s movie of it would be pretty boring. The whole stelliferous era, black hole era, and even the dark era/photon age will pass more quickly than HPP can measure. If we assume that HPP shares with us non-hypothetical people an aversion of boredom and an affection of experience, and some way of “dropping into time” – perhaps by transforming via some wizardly feat of pair production into a Hypothetical Positronium Person (HPsP) – they have have challenging timing problems to solve. Let’s say they pop into time and space around 9 Gy ABB near planet Earth, think “what an interesting looking scene”, and want to pop back out then back in again after 4 Gy to see what develops. No matter how short a duration HPP sets their timer for, an infinite amount of time will pass – they’ll miss the whole history of the universe.

 

A simple solution to the problem is, obviously, for HPP/HPsP to keep his timer in the slower-than-light universe. While HPP can’t possibly measure 4 Gy or any other finite duration in the STL universe, if they trigger their transformation into TPsP to their arrival at something like a convenient cloud of gas in their travel path, they could plan their drop-ins pretty neatly.

Okay, this is may be the result of a wandering mind while I was cleaning out the barn, so please feel free to shoot holes in my logic.

The big hole here is that, by best present day theory, HPP isn’t merely hypothetical, but impossible. Photons are gauge bosons, which by definition, can’t interact with one another, only with fermions. Even the simplest mechanism must have parts that interact. Photons don’t have any internal parts, so they’re not mechanisms. Because they’re bosons, you can’t build even a simple mechanism entirely out of photons, let alone a very complicated mechanics like a person – something with consciousness – or even a less complicated one, like a recording device.

 

The laws of nature seem to prohibit the observation of infinite time dilations and length contractions.

 

On another note, time seems to exist only as a result of things happening, so if somehow, some day, someone figures out how to travel backwards in time, that someone would have to find a way to make everything happen backwards, and if the uncertainty principle holds for forward time, it would have to hold for backwards time, in which case there would have to be many possible pasts, and it would be impossible to go back to the same past we remember.

I can’t think of any sensible scheme to travel backward in time that works by making things happen backwards. Since whoever of whatever was traveling back in time via such a scheme would also happen backwards, they couldn’t be aware of or carry any message back in time, so this kind of time machine would be useless, its effects completely undetectable. We could have all traveled back in time many times this way, and never know it.

 

Schemes like the Tipler cylinder or a Sagan-Thorne-Morris wormhole simply make possible paths that travel not in the usual past-to-future direction in time, but the opposite future-to-past direction. They all, however, require the negative energy flavor of exotic matter, which there are only the vaguest hints may be possible.

 

If these kinds of future-to-past time machine are possible, they then have the limitation that they can’t send stuff to times before they existed. So to do such interesting stuff as explore the prehistoric past, you’d have to not build one, but find ancient ones either naturally occurring or build by ancient non-humans. It takes a pretty big stretch of the imagination to imagine such a thing.

 

My gut tells me that, if (a very big if) a past-to-future time machine is created, it will be both mind bogglingly weird, completely paradox-proof, and also show that the many-worlds interpretation is physically real.

[Maine farmer]

Okay, granted a photon can't have consciousness, I guess I was just trying to visualize what things would look like if the impossible were to actually be possible.  Got me thinking about what it would be like for us to even attempt to travel at near light speed.  How would we be able to steer or even stop a spacecraft at near light speed? 

 

Regarding traveling backwards in time, I don't really buy int the Sagan - Thorne -Morris wormhole scheme.  Any negative time would be only local to the moving end of the wormhole.  The rest of the universe would still be experiencing positive time.  My gut feeling is that if one traveled through such a "time machine"  they may find they just grow younger instead of older, or just experience a decrease in entropy, and who knows what that would do to a body?

 

The concept of negative thinking did get me to thinking that there really are multiple possible pasts.  Just like if you bend a piece of steel and then try to straighten it.  You may get it close to where it began, but it takes a lot of effort, and you won't get every atom back in place, yet you will have it in a condition that it could have been in.

[NotBrad]

Okay, granted a photon can't have consciousness, I guess I was just trying to visualize what things would look like if the impossible were to actually be possible.  Got me thinking about what it would be like for us to even attempt to travel at near light speed.  How would we be able to steer or even stop a spacecraft at near light speed? 

 

Regarding traveling backwards in time, I don't really buy int the Sagan - Thorne -Morris wormhole scheme.  Any negative time would be only local to the moving end of the wormhole.  The rest of the universe would still be experiencing positive time.  My gut feeling is that if one traveled through such a "time machine"  they may find they just grow younger instead of older, or just experience a decrease in entropy, and who knows what that would do to a body?

 

The concept of negative thinking did get me to thinking that there really are multiple possible pasts.  Just like if you bend a piece of steel and then try to straighten it.  You may get it close to where it began, but it takes a lot of effort, and you won't get every atom back in place, yet you will have it in a condition that it could have been in.

So taking things a bit more serious now, I believe that the "passing of time" is simply a misunderstood phenomenon. There is no real reason that accelerating to the speed of light would slow down time, sure relativity assumes it must be so, but that is a very poor reason to assume that the theory is correct. IT IS A THEORY? I might hear you thinking this(due to my telepathy) but though much of the concept has been mathematically "proven"(I use that term loosely) the theory only stands until a greater more explicable a/o all encompassing theory takes its place as the norm. The reason I am bringing this up is that there can be only one truth.

 

GOD IS 4 REAL

I completely disagree with the religious perspective on omnipotent beings that monitor the earth a/o heaven/hell or any of that garbage. What I do believe though, is that we are within a closed system that exists on a separate plane of existence to said creator which has rules that have been determined by an external force(aka god[but not in the sense of religion]). I posted a statement a few months ago on the forums that represents my view of the problem quite well; We do not need to math(yes I am using math as a verb) out the entire universe to justify our own existence. Yes there might be a secret within theoretical physics that leads to cold fusion or some parallel technological advancement and could subsequently empower us to transcend the mortal restrictions of diminishing resources. But don't you think that when we do figure it out, there will be nothing left for us? What happens when there are no more answers and we still haven't crossed the threshold of omnipotence? Do you guys actually want to know the answer? or do you just like the idea that someday somebody will figure it all out? 

 

Honestly got way to philosophical there, my bad. posting anyways.

[Maine farmer]

Not looking for omnipotence here.   I just like thinking about things that blow my mind.  Omnipotence sounds boring to me, as I love learning new things, and taking on new challenges.

 

Regarding time slowing at increasing velocities, I believe that has been tested using atomic clocks on supersonic jets.  I trust someone here knows the details about that?

[A-wal]

So taking things a bit more serious now, I believe that the "passing of time" is simply a misunderstood phenomenon. There is no real reason that accelerating to the speed of light would slow down time, sure relativity assumes it must be so, but that is a very poor reason to assume that the theory is correct. IT IS A THEORY? I might hear you thinking this(due to my telepathy) but though much of the concept has been mathematically "proven"(I use that term loosely) the theory only stands until a greater more explicable a/o all encompassing theory takes its place as the norm. The reason I am bringing this up is that there can be only one truth.

No! Acceleration has to slow down time because the speed of light is the same in all inertial frames of reference. If objects that aren't at rest relative to each other measure the speed of light to be the same then they HAVE to be measuring time and/or space differently. It's as simple as that.

 

GOD IS 4 REAL

You have no basis for that claim!