Are Bad Results Inevitable?

[Maine farmer]

I recently tried out one of those virtual reality goggles, the kind that you put a cell phone in.  It was impressive, and unsettling.  I can see so many bad scenarios potentially resulting from the use of this technology that it's downright scary!  Does anyone else share my concerns?

[sanctus]

I bought some of these vr-googles (gear VR from samsung) a few months back. I am still waitning to get an hint of any bad scenario directly related to its use. I mean all the normal stuff which you also have for pc-games, social media and/or tv are there, eg. relationship suffers because you spend too much time there, etc. but some bad things to happen only specific due to these googles I have no clue. Exemplify some?

The VR social apps are actually I think less worrisome than the ones on the net, because you are actually there (sitting with some friends outside a spacestation) and you really do interact, less risk of having a lot of friends on fb and anyway being alone and lonely.

 

 

I mean, I tried the horror game dreadhalls where you are first-person in a dungeon and there should be monster, just by knowing this and by really feeling like being in that dungeon I got so scared that I actually walked down only one corridor and never saw a monster...didn't see a reason to give me a heart-attack ;-) So yeah your 10 year old kid getting hold of the whole set and ending up in this game is the only bad scenario I can see.

 

Also it gives you the means to see first person places around the world, cool for people who do not want or cannot travel, etc.

[NotBrad]

Although these concerns are not unfounded there is no "increased danger" versus any other medium. The same issues that already existed will be present whilst the changes that will be noticed are more subtle. The problems we will face that are in association to VR technology will only be an extension of the issues that already existed within our society. Things such as excessive unhealthy play sessions will likely not be increased in both forms, those being duration and frequency. The side affects of social distancing will that can be present will not likely increase with VR as the users who are already affected by this are the same people who will be affected when using VR. By this logic I would assume that there might be a general increase in these issues when seen as a lump sum, but the introduction of many new users who will not be affected would counterbalance said new problems. I would personally even go so far as to say that non-VR users are more susceptible to aforementioned issues, and the number of individuals affected by these issues will actually go down when compared to the user base due to the introduction of differing personality types.

[sanctus]

NotBrad, I am not sure farming referred to the issues we 2 discussed. FarmingGuy?

[Maine farmer]

As the virtual reality technology becomes more realistic, I wonder if we will see more people who have trouble knowing what is real and what is virtual, especially with the popularity of violent video games, there should be some concern with people knowing when they are playing and when they are in the "real" world..

 

I can see some beneficial uses for the technology such as learning skills, or visiting places without traveling, but I can envision people becoming so engrossed in the experiences that they forget to take care of things in the real world, such as maybe even eating and sleeping.

[NotBrad]

NotBrad, I am not sure farming referred to the issues we 2 discussed. FarmingGuy?

Oh, I see what he meant now. Sometimes I forget to ask the question from the perspective of the OP before answering.

 

As the virtual reality technology becomes more realistic, I wonder if we will see more people who have trouble knowing what is real and what is virtual, especially with the popularity of violent video games, there should be some concern with people knowing when they are playing and when they are in the "real" world..

 

I can see some beneficial uses for the technology such as learning skills, or visiting places without traveling, but I can envision people becoming so engrossed in the experiences that they forget to take care of things in the real world, such as maybe even eating and sleeping.

I would assume that bad results are inevitable regardless of medium, age, race, gender, etc.

By medium I mean the source material in question; any activity can have adverse affects on the definition of reality for any individual. I would compare this in a very abstract way to drug users for arguments sake, many individuals with high dependencies for narcotics only care about the next high, that meaning they define the space in between as the means to the end, rather than an actual part of the experience. A normal individual without these dependencies would still be able to interact with the world around them in a normal way because they would still consider their everyday life to be reality. Much unlike the individual with an addiction who may not even be able to function properly outside of the high due either to physical addiction or due to the lack of psychedelic artificial enhancement.

 

The same could be said about VR technology, hell the same could be said about video games in general! Imagine how empowering it feels to be the action hero in your favorite video game, or to be the best player on your team in a competitive game. Now imagine being somebody who has no real authority or outstanding characteristics to garner special recognition in the real world. That power, authority, wisdom, and skill are all lacking outside of the virtual world, whether you are playing through a keyboard or through a VR headset the effect is the same. I experience this effect and I personally believe that although not chief among the causes for my sloth and uninspired demeanor it certainly didn't help having such a strong crutch to lean on during hard times. I am speaking through my own non-VR experiences with video games because had I been forced to confront my flaws without the aid of an artificial means of receiving praise I may have proven to be the child prodigy my teachers said I could be rather than the "smart slacker" I am now. Rather than browsing forums and discussing world issues and scientific developments, I could potentially be partaking in their development. Though my experience with this issue was relatively inert, I have met many young men around my own age(16-20) who were very negatively impacted by the availability of immersive escapism that they have neither the ability to face their problems at a personal level, nor the desire to. I think that is the more prominent issue here that will prevail through all time, why work when you can play instead? But I don't think that the issue mentioned by Farming guy is unfounded or any less serious, I would rather like to think it is simply a further development of the issue I presented that occupies the most negative end of the spectrum. But he is right, with an increase in both accessibility and immersion will come an increase in affects both beneficial and adverse, but like always; we will only see news on the negative components due to sensationalism.

Edited April 6, 2016 by NotBrad

[sanctus]

I second that, I am not really scared of the potential negative effects of VR, it is just more of the existing. And the hardcore PC-games almost no1 will actually play them in VR, in VR they are just too hardcore, too scary. So actually, it might have an adverse effect, VR will make the games less violent and scary exactly because it feels more real.

[Maine farmer]

I second that, I am not really scared of the potential negative effects of VR, it is just more of the existing. And the hardcore PC-games almost no1 will actually play them in VR, in VR they are just too hardcore, too scary. So actually, it might have an adverse effect, VR will make the games less violent and scary exactly because it feels more real.

I hope you are right!  I find I can no longer watch a lot of the newer movies due to the graphic violence and dark themes, and I really would not care to experience them in VR.

 

What about the couch-potato effect?  Can anyone see virtual reality having any sort of impact on that?  I think that if you could have an affordable system where you were actually moving your body, it could have a positive effect on physical conditioning.

[NotBrad]

I hope you are right!  I find I can no longer watch a lot of the newer movies due to the graphic violence and dark themes, and I really would not care to experience them in VR.

 

What about the couch-potato effect?  Can anyone see virtual reality having any sort of impact on that?  I think that if you could have an affordable system where you were actually moving your body, it could have a positive effect on physical conditioning.

Maybe, but if there is a demand supply will become available to meet that demand. Even if the first generation of FDVR devices have haptic feedback and an interactive real body experience, somebody will come along and develop a new device that doesn't require it anyways, which will quickly replace the older version simply because physical exhaustion and muscle development are both uncomfortable and last for days afterwards if done in excess of your norm. There is a reason why there are so many cases of obesity these days, it's less of a social issue and more of an economic one. The distances one would need to travel in a day have increased tremendously over the years, a few hundred years ago the majority of the world's population had never traveled more than fifty kilometers from where they were born. Why would they need to? Everything they needed or wanted was obtainable locally. Now, some people drive that much in a day just to get to and from work. These people don't park farther from their job to get exercise, that would take away from their personal time. So they don't get the same exercise that say an individual who uses the bus and has to walk from the bus stop to wherever and back again. That's not even normal either for the human body, the human body is designed more for the lifestyle lived out by tribes in Africa or south america in the Amazon.

My point is this; even if a product were made available that can provide exercise during a FDVR experience, who would buy it? Would be a real hassle to set up and get strapped into every time, and plus you can't just go to bed and log out directly into sleep!

That's a concept I've liked for a while, since an FDVR device can control your body it would be amazing if you could log out straight into sleep, potentially even lucid dreams! Just a thought for those like me who sometimes suffer insomnia. There is also the possibility that while in an FDVR game the body might actually experience some of the regenerative affects that usually happen during sleep. Although this would certainly not include the brain given the importance of dreaming and the sleep cleaning cycle that takes place there. It's really cool if you are interested! http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/while-your-were-sleeping

You might need a VPN based in Canada to view it though since it states on the website only available in Canada. As a Canadian taxpayer I say you may watch the government sponsored content using my right!

Edited April 8, 2016 by NotBrad

[Maine farmer]

Maybe, but if there is a demand supply will become available to meet that demand. Even if the first generation of FDVR devices have haptic feedback and an interactive real body experience, somebody will come along and develop a new device that doesn't require it anyways, which will quickly replace the older version simply because physical exhaustion and muscle development are both uncomfortable and last for days afterwards if done in excess of your norm. There is a reason why there are so many cases of obesity these days, it's less of a social issue and more of an economic one. 

My point is this; even if a product were made available that can provide exercise during a FDVR experience, who would buy it? Would be a real hassle to set up and get strapped into every time, and plus you can't just go to bed and log out directly into sleep!

That's a concept I've liked for a while, since an FDVR device can control your body it would be amazing if you could log out straight into sleep, potentially even lucid dreams! Just a thought for those like me who sometimes suffer insomnia. 

There are bonuses to physical exhaustion that shouldn't be overlooked.  Personally, I enjoy rigorous activities, and find I can eat all of my favorite foods without gaining weight, which has been the same for over 20 years now!

 

There is also a benefit from exercise for insomniacs https://sleepfoundation.org-ask-the-expert/how-does-exercise-help-those-chronic-insomnia  I find most evenings I am quite physically exhausted and fall asleep within minutes of my head hitting the pillow.

[NotBrad]

There are bonuses to physical exhaustion that shouldn't be overlooked.  Personally, I enjoy rigorous activities, and find I can eat all of my favorite foods without gaining weight, which has been the same for over 20 years now!

 

There is also a benefit from exercise for insomniacs https://sleepfoundation.org-ask-the-expert/how-does-exercise-help-those-chronic-insomnia  I find most evenings I am quite physically exhausted and fall asleep within minutes of my head hitting the pillow.

I am not arguing the merits of non-kinesthetic VR versus the benefits of physical activity for the body. My point is that for every one person that wants to move their real body there will be more who don't. The reasoning behind that is this; who want's to play VR if it means being restricted by the limitations of the normal world? The whole goal of VR has always been to immerse the user in a world other than our own, any anchor to our world directly reduces our ability to completely forget what we are experiencing is fake. Now of course that is the issue you present within the topic, so it kind of makes sense to potentially debate the merits of a slightly less immersive experience in the name of psychological stability for users who might lose themselves in the game. 

As a secondary note, by kinesthetic I mean the real body rather than any artificial sense generated by a FDVR device. I just realized that the term is more specifically the sense of the body rather than the body itself. My bad, but I think you get what I'm saying.

[CraigD]

As the virtual reality technology becomes more realistic, I wonder if we will see more people who have trouble knowing what is real and what is virtual, especially with the popularity of violent video games, there should be some concern with people knowing when they are playing and when they are in the "real" world.

Let’s consider a test to determine if a VR system is “perfect” – that is, capable of presenting the user with a simulation of reality indistinguishable from actual reality. The user is anesthetized then revived either in actual reality or a VR simulation of it, and asked to identify which they are in. It they do no better than chance (correct 50% the time) the VR system is perfect.

 

No current commercial or experimental system is even close to perfect – if this test were done with them, users would be 100% correct, always able to distinguish VR from actual reality. I’m pretty sure it will be a long time – 10+ years – before a perfect VR technology exists. Such a system will require, I think, a ultra high, read/write brain computer interface, like the “fulldive technology” we discuss in this subforum.

 

Let’s imagine a perfect VR system exists. I imagine a program that simulated actual reality as closely as possible would be popular, if for no other reason than it would allow people to play “what if” games. Most of us have wondered “could I do that?” that being some dangerous or unethical activity, like sword-fighting a tiger, or “what would that be like?” that being something like falling from a high place.

 

Such a program, following the test process I described, would be capable of preventing users from distinguishing VR from actual reality. I imagine such programs would have safety features to assure people knew when they were in or out of, or at least entering or leaving, the simulation. If these features were purposefully disabled, the user or other could be harmed. For example, in a VR program that starts with an exact simulation of actual reality when the user pressed its “on button”, a malicious hacker could have the program immediately exit, deceiving the user into thinking they were in the simulation, so that they performed a lethal “what if” activity in actual reality.

 

I can see some beneficial uses for the technology such as learning skills, or visiting places without traveling, but I can envision people becoming so engrossed in the experiences that they forget to take care of things in the real world, such as maybe even eating and sleeping.

As the CBC article NotBrad linked to in this post describes, science has shown that sleep is essential to mental function, so it’s not possible to forget to do it. This is true in actual reality, and couldn’t be changed using VR technology – although one could in principle live, waking and sleeping, in VR for many days.

 

Becoming so engrossed in computer games that they neglect to eat or drink properly occurs now, with ordinary keyboard-and screen systems. Since VR games will likely be more engaging than keyboard-and-screen ones, I expect this problem will become more frequent, but as it’s a psychological, not a technical, problem, I think it’s best cured with psychotherapy, not game design.

[NotBrad]

As the CBC article NotBrad linked to in this post describes, science has shown that sleep is essential to mental function, so it’s not possible to forget to do it. This is true in actual reality, and couldn’t be changed using VR technology – although one could in principle live, waking and sleeping, in VR for many days.

 

Becoming so engrossed in computer games that they neglect to eat or drink properly occurs now, with ordinary keyboard-and screen systems. Since VR games will likely be more engaging than keyboard-and-screen ones, I expect this problem will become more frequent, but as it’s a psychological, not a technical, problem, I think it’s best cured with psychotherapy, not game design.

I think that if we address the common denominator here we'd be less likely to see these common problems that exist across many mediums. I think that certain VR experiences might actually address some of the problems discussed. An open world VRMMO might lead to more human interaction and reduce the number of "cave dwellers" who avoid people to play games instead. Or people who are very reclusive due to fear of failure may gain the ability to face the day with the aid of confidence gained in VR. There are many ways VR could help too. The ironic part though is that the people who are most likely to experience negative effects are also the people who stand to benefit most. That's the issue isn't it? How could we predict whether the effect of VR would lean more to the positive or more to the negative? 

I suppose only time will tell.

[sanctus]

Actually I just downloaded a "game" for gear_VR where you are in places where pople with height fear would never survive and the aim of the game is just to walk around and get used to it-->combat your fear. So such positive apps are already there, btw I have no fear of heights (jsut the required respect) and have not tried the app yet. So it might be not well done, but the idea is good.

[NotBrad]

Actually I just downloaded a "game" for gear_VR where you are in places where pople with height fear would never survive and the aim of the game is just to walk around and get used to it-->combat your fear. So such positive apps are already there, btw I have no fear of heights (jsut the required respect) and have not tried the app yet. So it might be not well done, but the idea is good.

Well there it is, no psychotic killing sprees yet, only positive development!

[CraigD]

Well there it is, no psychotic killing sprees yet, only positive development!

Funny how when we picture what Farming Guy’s “trouble knowing what is real and what is virtual” means, what comes first to mind is the confused person hurting others.

 

I’d be more worried about them hurting themselves. For example, the typical present-day 1st person game allows a player to have their avatar effortlessly jump from 10 meters plus high ledges with no injury – not something you’d want to try in actual reality.

 

Some years ago, I had a minor spell of TKWIRAWIV. I’d been obsessively binge playing the superb 2001 video game GTA III. I got a notice saying to bring my car in to inspect and/or replace some recalled part. Preparing to take my car to the dealer, my wife asked me how I planned to get to my office after dropping it off, and I realized I’d made no sensible plan, but, drawing from my GTA III experience, assumed I’d just steal the nearest one I came across.

 

Fortunately I regained my grasp on reality in time to get a ride to work in the dealer’s courtesy shuttle.

[NotBrad]

Funny how when we picture what Farming Guy’s “trouble knowing what is real and what is virtual” means, what comes first to mind is the confused person hurting others.

 

I’d be more worried about them hurting themselves. For example, the typical present-day 1st person game allows a player to have their avatar effortlessly jump from 10 meters plus high ledges with no injury – not something you’d want to try in actual reality.

 

Some years ago, I had a minor spell of TKWIRAWIV. I’d been obsessively binge playing the superb 2001 video game GTA III. I got a notice saying to bring my car in to inspect and/or replace some recalled part. Preparing to take my car to the dealer, my wife asked me how I planned to get to my office after dropping it off, and I realized I’d made no sensible plan, but, drawing from my GTA III experience, assumed I’d just steal the nearest one I came across.

 

Fortunately I regained my grasp on reality in time to get a ride to work in the dealer’s courtesy shuttle.

Hahaha. Too true. I for one can say that oddly enough my excessive hours in CS:GO, coming up on around 650 hours of time spent alive in-game(according to http://csgo-stats.com/76561198056376692/), my reflexes have actually improved a great deal, specifically in response to peripheral objects and thrown objects. Didn't do much for eye-hand coordination, but I already play hockey and played lacrosse in the past so it's kind of a non-issue, but I digress. Sometimes when people do certain gestures I make as if to counter them out of habit, even though I only ever controlled my character with my mouse, I don't twitch my wrists or my fingers I actually move my body. Also, my aim with a real rifle has improved a great deal since I started playing tactical shooters, probably because sway in those games is unpredictable and erratic, whereas in real life you can feel the movements of a rifle. I might be going off topic here but it has a point I think. What I am saying is this, if my reactions to people in real life can be so altered without even moving my real body when learning to react that way, how much worse will it be when time spent in game is increased and real body movements and muscle memory are taken into account? Plus, I don't know if the concept of muscle memory is actually a function of the brain or the muscle, if it were the brain, then playing a first person shooter would train you with the weapons you play with, and hand-to-hand combat in games would translate directly to real world capability assuming the person was in decent shape. Even then, sufficient skill can overpower strength at times. Maybe we'll see a generation of hyper-lethal super nerds after this! Bullying would end overnight(at least for nerds. the jocks might get a ****-kicking).

Edited April 20, 2016 by NotBrad