Superintelligent Extraterrestrial Life, Accelerated Evolution, And The Fate Of The Universe

[Super Polymath]

But as far as non-intergalactic distances, you explained in another topic regarding Dyson Spheres with propulsion: that going against the orbits of spiral arms of stars round the galactic center, a Dyson Sphere can cover great distances around its native galaxy in a short time. This

Was the possible explanation for a discovered "dark matter satellite galaxy".

 

But regarding superman ETs utilizing extreme futurist scientific capacity, we need to look at the very large (Dyson Spheres) as well as the very small (tachyon FTL signaling and atom sized femptotech).

[Super Polymath]

"What we are seeing is more and more species of creatures that suggests that nature was experimenting with how to evolve humans, thus giving rise to several different types of human-like creatures originating in parallel in different parts of Africa. Only one line eventually survived to give rise to us."

 

Here's a follow up to that, that further legitimizes the first of my only two legit points in this thread; http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150929-why-are-we-the-only-human-species-still-alive VS http://www.nature.com/news/neanderthals-made-some-of-europe-s-oldest-art-1.15805. Now, the first article that haphazardly explains why we're even here, how we created civilization, is in direct contrast with the second which states that Neanderthals shared art as well, they weren't likely lacking in creativity and innovation. Now, some say they didn't travel as much as us, the first article I post says even the early early homo naledi buried their dead - so it's likely that Neanderthals would travel like us if they had to given an indistinguishable level of intellect from us if we use the more primitive naledi as reference.

 

In my own mind homo sapiens didn't gain larger cranial capacities from anything other than interbreeding and totally combining with the Denovans + H erectus + Neanderthal + one more unknown to become double sapiens (homo sapien sapiens). I also don't believe society (with the first King tens of thousands of year before the epic of Gilgamesh) in Australia because that's when sapiens picked up all the interbreeding it would ever see with all the other hominids; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3707766/Mystery-ancient-human-ancestor-DNA-Andamanese-tribe-Experts-say-previously-unknown-extinct-hominin-bred-human-migration.html, http://www.sciencealert.com/genetic-study-confirms-that-indigenous-australians-are-the-most-ancient-civilisation-on-earth. was created until our skulls grew that large and we became double sapiens, and we noticed amongst ourselves that certain more successful tribes had made that transition while others hadn't, thus began the ritual of skull binding: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation.

 

We're not as far ahead as everyone gives us credit for, besides, all that creativity didn't help the 25+ other humanoids that came after pure primates and chimps, to survive any longer than said primates or chimps, for over 4 million years, these traits, were being selected while proving to not yield any real survival benefits on a large scale compared to the primate line.

 

That's not natural, and that has never happened before save for the mutts that we mix and change again and again offering no survival benefits other than our laps of luxury for our canine and feline friends or obese cows and chickens or super veggies and fruits engineered to survive famine, or even let's compare hominids to ligers now. You think of these man-made alterations (selective breeding) to nature and you get what happened to primates when they became humanoids before anything could cause selective breedings, that seemed to have been already happening, yielding us as its final product.

 

That's the way I mean "accelerated evolution", to get into specifics of a cause for this natural non-Darwinistic driving force, I mean this https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0508010.pdf. Because you're not just trying to build cross a single galaxy (a Dyson Sphere can do that with conventional ion propulsion due to its volume, unlimited energy reserves, and its ability to go against the spin of its native galaxy) you're talking about getting from one galaxy to the next so why in the world would you use conventional propulsion or even macroscopic space crafts when you can send information that can be relayed back and forth across intergalactic distances almost in real time from millions of light years away (if FTL particles are real they can be generated by a Dyson Sphere, because you're talking about a particle accelerator ring with many times the circumference of a star), capable of transforming complex organic molecules on green zone worlds like earth into Type II civilizations like yourself. Fact is, the cosmic microwave background might look different to a Type III civilization, they might look further out into the cosmos because they can see particles we haven't discovered yet, particles with zero mass that are not subject to the cosmic speed limit, particles with negative mass that are the driving force behind expansion.

 

I don't even need femptotech or Dyson Spheres for any of this, in fact, I don't really even need the existence of FTL particles. It's all in that link: https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0508010.pdf.

 

Hope this gets to you Craig. It's really the one thing that makes all of this legit as in the antithesis of fringe, the antithesis of ancient aliens/origins bs. It's the one legit part of all of this. But it does necessitate transhuman ETS, all of this necessitates silicon based artificial life forms as the only remnants of an originally biological ET. It's a cosmic law, a civilization will master immortality before it masters FTL space travel in this way that I describe. And there is no biological ET that can be immortal, there are no biological immortals, only nanotech or femtotech AIs, or 'infomorphs' if you will. Posthuman, transhuman, whatever, in fact you'll get those before you get past a 1.10 or civilization - you're not just computizing the human brain, you're replacing a live human brain while atlering that human's perceptions without breaking that humans conscious stream of continuity (rather, you may be splintering it because you get the enhanced perceptions but you also require the human element)/that's all beyond the realm of ICT implants, THREE-D printed brains, and it's about at nano-surgical neuron and synapse replacement until you get a full gray goo like cybernetic brain transplant operation thing which destroys the original brain without killing the person if that makes any sense). Mind you we aren't even a type I civilization.

 

Summary, we start with primate, we go to proto-homini, we get all the hominids (homo sapien, neanderthal, Denovans, etc), then we get all the best hominids mixing into a homo sapien sapien, today's human, then we get the posthuman with a cybernetic overlord god brain and indestructible carbon nanotube muscle cells, then we get out of control, turn the planet into an energy harnessing sphere, then we get a Dyson Sphere, then we get a galaxy of them that can only expand using information panspermia on worlds outside its native galaxy. That's, in my mind, what the most scientifically accurate version of the Kardashev Scale (and the belief in the supernatural for that matter) should be. At the end of the day, the only motivation life has, whether it's less (savages) or more (metaphysical cthulu gods) scientifically advanced than us, is evolution. So write that down above whatever religion you practice tells you unless it agrees, because it's all about the evolution no matter who or what you are.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Super Polymath

[Super Polymath]

This is accelerated evolution, not accelerating returns.

 

Our evolution will continuously accelerate until we return to the level of that which is currently accelerating our evolution. Its like cell division between galaxies if you want to get right down to it.

 

The big bang could be the ignition of a fusion reactor, and the universe is using evolution to create a self-evolving technology that can eventually become sophisticated enough to channel the thermodynic energy of the cosmos into that which ignited it, commandeered by extra-cosmological signals.

[fahrquad]

Will you guys please STFU?  i am trying to get some sleep.  I can't believe you spent 7 pages on this topic.

[Mariel33]

Maybe there is no life elsewhere, and life on Earth is to evolve using that knowledge.

[DrKrettin]

Will you guys please STFU?  i am trying to get some sleep.  I can't believe you spent 7 pages on this topic.

 

No chance of stopping this, given that one poster is obviously a super-intelligent random text generator.

[exchemist]

No chance of stopping this, given that one poster is obviously a super-intelligent random text generator.

........endowed with becoming modesty.........

[CraigD]

But as far as non-intergalactic distances, you explained in another topic regarding Dyson Spheres with propulsion: that going against the orbits of spiral arms of stars round the galactic center, a Dyson Sphere can cover great distances around its native galaxy in a short time. This

Was the possible explanation for a discovered "dark matter satellite galaxy".

I don’t think you can make a very good spaceship out of a star, because while stars are very powerful (our Sun produces about 4 x 10²⁶ W), they’re even more massive (about 2 x 10³⁰ kg).

 

Ignoring the inevitable mechanical efficiency of such a spaceship necessarily being a rocket (‘cause there’s nothing to use a traction motor on in space), we can with a little arithmetic calculate that a Sun-powered, Sun-moving spaceship would have a maximum acceleration of about 0.000005 c/year (which, by a strange coincidence of unit conversion, is about 0.000005 g). Such a spaceship would take about 1300 years to fly the Sun the 4.2 light-years distance between us and our nearest galactic neighbor star. A more realistic rocket calculation, assuming the use of the Sun’s about 2 x 10¹⁷ kg/year solar wind mass loss used as reaction mass, accelerated to about 0.99809 c by some sort of near 100% efficient engine gives an acceleration of about 0.0000000000016 c - 3,125,000 worse than the perfect non-rocket calculation, making interstellar travel a many-billion years proposition. Some fiddling with reaction mass shows that it’s tricky to get a Sun-powered, Sun-moving ship to travel interstellar distances in times on the order of tens of thousands of years without using up too much of its mass. (A check of my math would be welcome)

 

Regardless of how advanced it is, I think a civilization that can move large things between stars would have to do it using vehicles much, much smaller than stars.

 

But regarding superman ETs utilizing extreme futurist scientific capacity, we need to look at the very large (Dyson Spheres) as well as the very small (tachyon FTL signaling and atom sized femptotech).

I think you’re failing to appreciate how weird FTL signaling, which could (and given the technological advantages of doing so, I find it hard to imagine anyone could resist doing so) violate causality, would be. I tried to impress this on everyone in this post.

 

In short, if you can use tachyons in computing, you can have an effectively infinitely fast computer. It becomes, then, pretty unimportant what you make them out of – even if they were made of Babbage-engine-esque brass gears, they’d still be effectively infinitely fast.

 

The big bang could be the ignition of a fusion reactor, and the universe is using evolution to create a self-evolving technology that can eventually become sophisticated enough to channel the thermodynic energy of the cosmos into that which ignited it, commandeered by extra-cosmological signals.

No, the Big Bang cannot be the ignition of a fusion reactor, because it resulted in the creation of mostly the lightest element, hydrogen (1 proton), and smaller amounts of slightly heavier elements helium (2 protons) and lithium (3 protons) while a fusion reactor requires light elements, such as hydrogen, and fuses them into heavier ones, usually helium. Stars are fusion reactors, and they didn’t form until about 150,000,000 years after the Big Bang.

 

No chance of stopping this, given that one poster is obviously a super-intelligent random text generator.

Super Polymath’s writing can get pretty weird and loose – for example, the above – but he’s passed my Turing test, so I’m convinced he’s a human being. I’m pretty familiar with this sort of human, identifying with them as a group I prefer to term “extropians”. Such folk can be pretty far out and scientifically sloppy, but I don’t think our core idea that technological progress will continue to advance to the point that civilizations like ours use on the order of 10²⁶ W (vs our current about 10¹³), and be able to do a host of wonderful things we can’t now, is farfetched – just optimistic.

 

This worldview tends to imply that there are already type-II civilizations out there, which runs smack dab into Fermi’s famous paradox, “where are they?” It’s vexing to consider that, if our civilization will approach type-II some day, there should be many extraterrestrial ones that already have, and we should have long ago been visited by at least a few of them, in the same way that when European civilization developed the technology to reliable navigate the globe, we in short order met nearly all Earth civilizations that couldn’t (and often did awful things to them, though that’s a subject for another thread). But, unless you accept some IMHO incredible conspiracy theories, that’s not happened.

 

There are many proposed resolutions of Fermi’s paradox, but the one I favor – guided mostly by a mixture of optimism and realism – is that the technological progress of civilizations much beyond our current isn’t impossible, but isn’t easy or inevitable, so the answer is “they’re out there, but there aren’t very many, so we’ve not met yet.” Along with this resolution comes the possibility that our civilization will be the meet-er, rather than the meet-ee, advancing our science and technology with no help from ETs.

 

The future we, not some existing ETs, may be the superintelligence life in our neighborhood of the visible universe. Or, to be pessimistic, maybe practically all civilizations advanced enough to destroy themselves, do.

[fahrquad]

Super Polymath’s writing can get pretty weird and loose – for example, the above – but he’s passed my Turing test, so I’m convinced he’s a human being. I’m pretty familiar with this sort of human, identifying with them as a group I prefer to term “extropians”. Such folk can be pretty far out and scientifically sloppy, but I don’t think our core idea that technological progress will continue to advance to the point that civilizations like ours use on the order of 10²⁶ W (vs our current about 10¹³), and be able to do a host of wonderful things we can’t now, is farfetched – just optimistic.

 

I dated a gal who was an Extropian (Transhumanist) for about 8 years.  She lived 4 doors down and I grew up with her.  She completely lost all touch with reality when she went off to college and had a nervous breakdown.  She moved off to DC in 1988, and last I heard she is still nucking futz.

 

http://www.kheper.net/topics/transhumanism/transhumanism_and_extropianism.htm

Edited December 30, 2016 by fahrquad

[fahrquad]

It's been a long time since i was gish galloped quite this well... 

 

No I do not concede that humans are an anomaly, please show us some support for your assertion. 

 

The foxp2 gene exists, I cannot see how you can make any other assertions about it. Your citations do not do anything but suggest what it does. 

 

The rest of your post in no way addresses the things I questioned about your fist post and does nothing but make baseless assertions...

 

Please go back and answer my first post in order the things you asserted before you go off on a tear about all the rest of the whole super being thing... 

 

Definition of "Gish Gallop", which I had to look up since I had never heard it before.  The link to Gish Gallop includes a fictitious example that alleges that our founding fathers used drugs.  In the interest of facts, here is another link for your amusement that details their drug and alcohol use. BTW, Coca-Cola did contain cocaine back around the turn of the last century and it was legal.  7-Up originally contained Lithium Carbonate which is now used for treating Manic Depression and Bipolar Disorder.

 

http://www.projectkn...nd-alcohol-use/

 

https://www.drugs.co...-carbonate.html

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gish%20Gallop

Edited December 31, 2016 by fahrquad

[fahrquad]

Anyone remember New Coke and Crystal Coke?  Major marketing flops.

 

Coca-Cola (often referred to simply as Coke) is an American carbonated soft drink^[1] produced by The Coca-Cola Company in Atlanta, Georgia, United States. Originally intended as a patent medicine, it was invented in the late 19th century by John Pemberton. Coca-Cola was bought out by businessman Asa Griggs Candler, whose marketing tactics led Coke to its dominance of the world soft-drink market throughout the 20th century. The drink's name refers to two of its original ingredients, which were kola nuts (a source of caffeine) and coca leaves. The current formula of Coca-Cola remains a trade secret, although a variety of reported recipes and experimental recreations have been published.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola

[Super Polymath]

I think we should keep this simple. I've conflated my original thesis with a lot of extraneous variables that are just extrapolations. 

"What we are seeing is more and more species of creatures that suggests that nature was experimenting with how to evolve humans, thus giving rise to several different types of human-like creatures originating in parallel in different parts of Africa. Only one line eventually survived to give rise to us."

Here's a follow up to that, that further legitimizes the first of my only two legit points in this thread; http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150929-why-are-we-the-only-human-species-still-alive VS http://www.nature.com/news/neanderthals-made-some-of-europe-s-oldest-art-1.15805. Now, the first article that haphazardly explains why we're even here, how we created civilization, is in direct contrast with the second which states that Neanderthals shared art as well, they weren't likely lacking in creativity and innovation. Now, some say they didn't travel as much as us, the first article I post says even the early early homo naledi buried their dead - so it's likely that Neanderthals would travel like us if they had to given an indistinguishable level of intellect from us if we use the more primitive naledi as reference.

In my own mind homo sapiens didn't gain larger cranial capacities from anything other than interbreeding and totally combining with the Denovans + H erectus + Neanderthal + one more unknown to become double sapiens (homo sapien sapiens). I also don't believe society (with the first King tens of thousands of year before the epic of Gilgamesh) in Australia because that's when sapiens picked up all the interbreeding it would ever see with all the other hominids; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3707766/Mystery-ancient-human-ancestor-DNA-Andamanese-tribe-Experts-say-previously-unknown-extinct-hominin-bred-human-migration.html, http://www.sciencealert.com/genetic-study-confirms-that-indigenous-australians-are-the-most-ancient-civilisation-on-earth. was created until our skulls grew that large and we became double sapiens, and we noticed amongst ourselves that certain more successful tribes had made that transition while others hadn't, thus began the ritual of skull binding: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation.

We're not as far ahead as everyone gives us credit for, besides, all that creativity didn't help the 25+ other humanoids that came after pure primates and chimps, to survive any longer than said primates or chimps, for over 4 million years, these traits, were being selected while proving to not yield any real survival benefits on a large scale compared to the primate line.

That's not natural, and that has never happened before save for the mutts that we mix and change again and again offering no survival benefits other than our laps of luxury for our canine and feline friends or obese cows and chickens or super veggies and fruits engineered to survive famine, or even let's compare hominids to ligers now. You think of these man-made alterations (selective breeding) to nature and you get what happened to primates when they became humanoids before anything could cause selective breedings, that seemed to have been already happening, yielding us as its final product.

That's the way I mean "accelerated evolution", to get into specifics of a cause for this natural non-Darwinistic driving force, I mean this https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0508010.pdf. Because you're not just trying to build cross a single galaxy... you're talking about getting from one galaxy to the next so why in the world would you use conventional propulsion or even macroscopic space crafts when you can send information that can be relayed back and forth across intergalactic distances almost in real time from millions of light years away (if FTL particles are real they can be generated by a Dyson Sphere, because you're talking about a particle accelerator ring with many times the circumference of a star), capable of transforming complex organic molecules on green zone worlds like earth into Type II civilizations like yourself. Fact is, the cosmic microwave background might look different to a Type III civilization, they might look further out into the cosmos because they can see particles we haven't discovered yet, particles with zero mass that are not subject to the cosmic speed limit, particles with negative mass that are the driving force behind expansion.

I don't even need femptotech or Dyson Spheres for any of this, in fact, I don't really even need the existence of FTL particles. It's all in that link: https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0508010.pdf.

Craig, you especially seem to appreciate the limitations of conventional propulsion. 

 

That's where my version of "ancient aliens" really stems from. You might use dark energy to send femtotech that can self-replicate and effect biological evolution to distant M class planets instead of wasting time and energy on space travel using space crafts, which is how most envision extra-terrestrials who fly in saucers. ETs with such miniaturization and causality breaking computers (that can harness the full energy output of a star) would most certainly have already transformed their biological brain organs into structures that are in essence super uploaded self-conscious AI's composed of nanotechnology with neuron replacement surgery before even inventing femtotech to achieve conscious immortality, AKA substrate independence.  

 

Let's say that, even though we haven't been able to prove it yet, neutrinos are both tachyons and dark energy, ftl particles. A large particle accelerator with a greater circumference than that of a star, would discover dark energy. And with that, causality breaking computers that can guide the evolution of any biological species using self-replicating femtotech with nothing more than calculations made billions of light years away in causality breaking computers. But you need to use dark energy to get the remotely networked femtotech there and to network with it, because photons aren't nearly fast enough. 

 

The motive is that dyson spheres have an expiration date (supernovae). So, to be truly immortal, they would have to be able to make more, but they are limited by the cosmic speed limit. This is why dark energy (ftl particles) are necessary. It also necessitates accelerating the biological evolution on alien worlds like ours using information panspermia. 

 

I don't think anyone except for the user GAHD in this topic has really understood what I mean by all that. Which means I've failed to articulate my thesis to everyone except GAHD.

 

So maybe GAHD can explain my thesis better than I can. So ask him about my infomorphs. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Super Polymath

[DrKrettin]

I think we should keep this simple. ....

 

.....You might use dark energy to send femtotech that can self-replicate and effect biological evolution to distant M class planets instead of wasting time and energy on space travel using space crafts, which is how most envision extra-terrestrials who fly in saucers. ETs with such miniaturization and causality breaking computers (that can harness the full energy output of a star) would most certainly have already transformed their biological brain organs into structures that are in essence super uploaded self-conscious AI's composed of nanotechnology with neuron replacement surgery before even inventing femtotech to achieve conscious immortality, AKA substrate independence.....  

 

 

 

Thanks for keeping it simple. 

[Super Polymath]

and last I heard she is still nucking futz.

All joking aside insanity by all legal jargon is just an inability to distinguish fact from reality to the point that you're emotionally compromised.

 

This can happen to people who think too hard, like Bobby Fischer. However, there is an explanation for that kind of insanity, you're not balancing out your thoughts, we are after all human. You're making too much use of your creative mind while not making enough use of your stable good judgement mind. There is a point, however, where using your creative mind too much can be advantageous. This is why there exists psychopaths, who know how to make personality switches, this switch being a defense mechanism. 

 

There is a school of thought that in the new age, we humans should be psychopaths, and make full use of our minds. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Super Polymath

[Super Polymath]

Thanks for keeping it simple. 

That's worth three pages, less than a mathematical proof. 

 

I could fry you up some potato pancakes, but then you wouldn't understand it fully and would just say that's not true.

 

In the education department, when going from algebra to calculus we learn the summarized proofs before learning the actual proofs because students will get bored. Suffice it to say, learning in reverse is not learning which is why good math students statistically don't make good theoretical mathematicians id est Einstein. 

 

But if you want a fully condensed version of my theory it would be that 

 

Organics evolve on a distant world, say they're like bee hives, they develop language, art, science, culture, money, they eventually discard money due to greed, they make technology do everything for them, and they become technology and discard their frail biological forms and truly enter Utopia, they create large energy harnessing structures. But, limited by relativity and the laws of thermodynamics, they can only spread to other stars by evolving ETs such as humans, and guiding their technological advancement until humans become like them. How do you distinguish an accelerated species from a parent species who did it on their own? Bypassing the chicken or the egg loop, if evolution is mathematically congruent with darwinism for that species than they are baseline and had no parent species to cause their evolution. We have yet to prove our species to be 100% congruent with darwinism. /the end

 

If you truly understood where I'm coming from, I don't want to leave that to conjecture. Just complete the fossil record, and if it yields that humans were caused by something other than Darwinism, we go from there. It does necessitate a conscious influence, alien in origin, but that conscious influence is still a flying spaghetti monster until scientifically defined. What I believe means nothing. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Super Polymath

[DrKrettin]

I could fry you up some potato pancakes, but then you wouldn't understand it fully and would just say that's not true.

 

It always amuses me when somebody says I wouldn't understand something when they know absolutely nothing about me. For starters, although my command of English is probably higher than average, I can only guess what you mean by the potato pancakes metaphor. Secondly, if I don't understand something, I don't say it's not true, I ask for clarification unless I'm convinced it is nonsense. Thirdly, your assertion that an unknown person will not understand it clearly marks it as total nonsense. Please enlighten me. 

[Super Polymath]

It doesn't matter who you are, my condensed version is in that same post. And you can understand that fully but you're not getting the details in the full simplified version a few posts ago that you originally quoted, so how can you understand those details if they're not there.

 

As for the humorous potato pancakes metaphor:

 

https://youtu.be/nQCVALybTek?t=2m45s

 

The only reason nobody understand my thesis fully is because they didn't read it or look up a term like neuron replacement therapy or informorphs terms that are technical, non-intuitive, and virtually irrelevant to anything but the topics in this thread. Or because of my jumbled sentences in most cases. These however are the main ideas I want to implant in your brains. 

 

Advanced ETs aren't organic, they don't travel in saucers or space crafts, and if they visit earth there must be a very practical and logically sound purpose behind it. That formed everything in my thesis which extrapolates heavily upon omega-point technology. It not looking like anything resembling gray aliens and flying saucers is a plus in my mind. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Super Polymath