Alien Intelligence

[Maine farmer]

Was watching a series on netflix with Neil deGrasse Tyson ,( I can't remember the title) and at one point he was talking about the hubris it takes for us humans to decide what intelligence is.  He mentioned that we are only 1% different from chimpanzees and the smartest of them is about as smart as a human toddler, and went on to say that if an alien species was only 1% above humans, than the smartest human would only be as smart as an alien toddler.  Then he asked how aliens of advanced intelligence would treat us.  "Would they put us in a zoo?"  he asked, and "Would we even be able to tell?" he continued.

 

There is the question.  How would we be able to tell that we are not in a zoo of some advanced species?

[Turtle]

Was watching a series on netflix with Neil deGrasse Tyson ,( I can't remember the title) and at one point he was talking about the hubris it takes for us humans to decide what intelligence is.  He mentioned that we are only 1% different from chimpanzees and the smartest of them is about as smart as a human toddler, and went on to say that if an alien species was only 1% above humans, than the smartest human would only be as smart as an alien toddler.  Then he asked how aliens of advanced intelligence would treat us.  "Would they put us in a zoo?"  he asked, and "Would we even be able to tell?" he continued.

 

There is the question.  How would we be able to tell that we are not in a zoo of some advanced species?

How could we tell if we could tell? And if we could tell, how could we tell if the aliens' zoo we were in were themselves in a zoo of a yet more advanced intelligence? It might be turtles all the way down. :turtle: Moreover, what difference would it make if we knew? Would you stop farming? Throw yourself under a tractor? Stop eating eggs and bacon for breakfast?

[Maine farmer]

How could we tell if we could tell? And if we could tell, how could we tell if the aliens' zoo we were in were themselves in a zoo of a yet more advanced intelligence? It might be turtles all the way down. :turtle: Moreover, what difference would it make if we knew? Would you stop farming? Throw yourself under a tractor? Stop eating eggs and bacon for breakfast?

It's kind of like the old Bugs Bunny cartoon, where Bugs says to Elmer "Did you ever get the feeling you were being watched?  I might try to put on a good show...  It's hard to behave normally if you know you are being watched.

[Turtle]

It's kind of like the old Bugs Bunny cartoon, where Bugs says to Elmer "Did you ever get the feeling you were being watched?  I might try to put on a good show...  It's hard to behave normally if you know you are being watched.

Love Bugs! Being of a challenge authority bent, I would bend the ol' shotgun out another hole and have the keepers blast their own bad selves to smithereens. What's up now Doc!?

[CraigD]

Was watching a series on netflix with Neil deGrasse Tyson ,( I can't remember the title) and at one point he was talking about the hubris it takes for us humans to decide what intelligence is. He mentioned that we are only 1% different from chimpanzees and the smartest of them is about as smart as a human toddler, and went on to say that if an alien species was only 1% above humans, than the smartest human would only be as smart as an alien toddler.

You gotta’ be careful with that “human and chimps only 1% different” factoid. It refers to a comparison of how many of our genes are identical, which is about 99%. Though this sounds nearly identical, the small number of genes by which we do differ obviously makes us very different animals.

 

It’s important to note that while our genomes are 99% identical, our so-important brains aren’t very obviously much less. For example, the average adult chimp’s brain masses about380 g, the average adult human about 1350. At birth, a chimp’s brain is about 150 g, a human’s about 400. So it’s not surprising that, while we humans have emotions and behaviors similar to chimps and other great apes, we’re much more intelligent, in practically any way we can sensibly define intelligence.

 

I think this difference in intelligence allows us humans to cross a critical threshold that makes us not just quantitatively, but qualitatively different than the other primates. We’re able to think very abstractly in subjects like science, and write down ideas, allowing us to know more than we can keep in mind unaided. I don’t see any evidence that our ape cousins can do this more than rarely and haphazardly.

 

I suspect that we’d either share this quality – the ability to use symbols to make practically unlimitedly extendable knowledge systems – with any super-intelligent we might interact with, or be able to use it to understand at least some of the differences in how such beings’ thinking differs from ours, in a way that chimps can’t to understand how we human think differently from them.

 

Some have argued that an exchange with Washoe, a chimp that was taught to communicate using sign language, when asked in sign by a researcher about some chimps in a cage near her, signed “black cat” and “black bugs” suggested that chimps can have an idea about the relative intelligence of chimps and humans (and that Washoe though of other chimps as being less intelligent than her), but I think this is too long a stretch, and wrong. I don’t think any non-human primates are able to understand what makes humans intelligence greater and qualitatively different than theirs, or theirs greater than insects.

 

(sources: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tiny-genetic-differences-between-humans-and-other-primates-pervade-the-genome; http://humanorigins.si.edu/human-characteristics/brains ; http://www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-m/fouts01.htm)

 

Then he asked how aliens of advanced intelligence would treat us. "Would they put us in a zoo?" he asked, and "Would we even be able to tell?" he continued.

 

There is the question. How would we be able to tell that we are not in a zoo of some advanced species?

The essential definition of a zoo is that it’s a place where animals are artificially confined and displayed to visitors. I’m fairly certain from my visits to even zoos with large enclosures carefully made to be as close as possible to their natural habitat, animals like apes and big cats were aware they were being kept in enclosures, and aware of visitors viewing them, because they could see us.

 

On the other hand, a careful zoologist, with the aid of telescopes, long-range microphones, and simple stealth, can observe an animal in the wild without being detected.

 

If ETs are observing us, they must be doing it like stealthy zoologists, because we don’t see them, or any signs of enclosures preventing our movement, even when that movement involves leaving the planet in spaceships.

[current]

 

To add

 

This alien intelligence doesn't seem to interfere with Humanities growing intellect.

[Maine farmer]

To add

 

This alien intelligence doesn't seem to interfere with Humanities growing intellect.

How would we know?  

 

It's sort of similar to the idea that we are really simulation on a computer.  How could we tell?  What could we do about it? Could we escape?  What would we do if we did escape?

 

I just find it's interesting to think about.

[CraigD]

This alien intelligence doesn't seem to interfere with Humanities growing intellect.

How would we know?

Archeological anthropology tells us, I think. We have pretty unambiguous evidence that our intellects are greater than those of our ancestor species, like Homo erectus about 1,800,000 years ago: our brains are bigger, and we make much more impressive artifacts.

 

If secretive ETs are trying to keep us from being too smart, they either haven’t been at it until recently (the past 50,000 years or so, when anthropologist think Homo Sapiens Sapiens became pretty much intellectually like we are now), or they don’t mind us being about as smart as we are.

 

As we’re becoming increasingly good at using computers to figure out how our DNA affects our brains and our intellects, I expect if ET’s have been fiddling with us in some unnatural way, we’ll soon discover it. I’d be very surprised if such a thing has happened, though. As we get better and better at astronomy, such ET’s would have to be practically god-like to stay hidden from us.

[current]

How would we know?  

 

It's sort of similar to the idea that we are really simulation on a computer.  How could we tell?  What could we do about it? Could we escape?  What would we do if we did escape?

 

I just find it's interesting to think about.

The ability to question is how we can tell .

 

To question is outside the computer simulation .

 

Why though ?

 

Because the computer is about logic , I question the logic .

[A-wal]

As we’re becoming increasingly good at using computers to figure out how our DNA affects our brains and our intellects, I expect if ET’s have been fiddling with us in some unnatural way, we’ll soon discover it. I’d be very surprised if such a thing has happened, though. As we get better and better at astronomy, such ET’s would have to be practically god-like to stay hidden from us.

I heard that the fusing of two of our chromosomes is evidence for exactly this. Not sure why that couldn't have happened through random mutation, just saying that's what I've heard a few times now.

[current]

Archeological anthropology tells us, I think. We have pretty unambiguous evidence that our intellects are greater than those of our ancestor species, like Homo erectus about 1,800,000 years ago: our brains are bigger, and we make much more impressive artifacts.If secretive ETs are trying to keep us from being too smart, they either haven’t been at it until recently (the past 50,000 years or so, when anthropologist think Homo Sapiens Sapiens became pretty much intellectually like we are now), or they don’t mind us being about as smart as we are.As we’re becoming increasingly good at using computers to figure out how our DNA affects our brains and our intellects, I expect if ET’s have been fiddling with us in some unnatural way, we’ll soon discover it. I’d be very surprised if such a thing has happened, though. As we get better and better at astronomy, such ET’s would have to be practically god-like to stay hidden from us.

The Tower of Babel, is the clue .

[Maine farmer]

Archeological anthropology tells us, I think. We have pretty unambiguous evidence that our intellects are greater than those of our ancestor species, like Homo erectus about 1,800,000 years ago: our brains are bigger, and we make much more impressive artifacts.

 

If secretive ETs are trying to keep us from being too smart, they either haven’t been at it until recently (the past 50,000 years or so, when anthropologist think Homo Sapiens Sapiens became pretty much intellectually like we are now), or they don’t mind us being about as smart as we are.

 

As we’re becoming increasingly good at using computers to figure out how our DNA affects our brains and our intellects, I expect if ET’s have been fiddling with us in some unnatural way, we’ll soon discover it. I’d be very surprised if such a thing has happened, though. As we get better and better at astronomy, such ET’s would have to be practically god-like to stay hidden from us.

I don't know, but stupidity seems to be a fairly persistent human trait.  How would we know if we had been tampered with in order to increase our intelligence?  

[Moontanman]

I have my doubts that aliens would be individually much smarter than humans... naturally anyway. In fact human intelligence would seem to be decreasing as we specialise in our behaviors. 50,000 years ago, most individuals would have had to do almost everything well to survive. Now days that specialization has been spread out over many individuals who collectively can accomplish far more than any one individual can today. 

[CraigD]

This alien intelligence doesn't seem to interfere with Humanities growing intellect.

How would we know?

The ability to question is how we can tell .

 

To question is outside the computer simulation .

You seem to be moving from the question of “are we being kept in a zoo by an advances alien species?” to “are we in a computer simulation.” Both are worthwhile questions, but I think it’s better to discuss one of them at a time. We’ve had some discussion (but, surprisingly since the idea has been so well-known as to be practically main-stream for night-on 15 years) in these threads, going back more than 10 years: Infinite recursive Simulated Realities and it's implications for the GUT; What Would Be Proof Of A God Or Gods Running The Universe?; Reality Vs Illusion; and What If We're Simulants. There might be more – these are just threads mentioning Bostrom’s simulation hypothesis that I’ve posted in.

 

Let’s stick with the alien zoo question in this thread.

 

As we’re becoming increasingly good at using computers to figure out how our DNA affects our brains and our intellects, I expect if ET’s have been fiddling with us in some unnatural way, we’ll soon discover it. I’d be very surprised if such a thing has happened, though. As we get better and better at astronomy, such ET’s would have to be practically god-like to stay hidden from us.

I heard that the fusing of two of our chromosomes is evidence for exactly this. Not sure why that couldn't have happened through random mutation, just saying that's what I've heard a few times now.

I’m for the mutation rather than ET genetic engineering explanation of human chromosome 2 that caused us H. Sapiens to have 23 chromosome pairs rather than the 24 the other great apes have. I’m also very skeptical of a connections between this genetic event and the traits that make us so dramatically smarter than our ape cousin species, because the timing is wrong – human chromosome 2 appeared 4,000,000 to 800,000 years ago, but behavioral modernity – us getting so smart – appeared much later, 80,000 to 40,000 years ago. Non-deleterious chromosome fusing mutations occur occasionally in humans – the most common kind, Robertsonian translocation, occurs in about 1 in every 1000 babies – and such people are physically and behaviorally normal. If enough of them were in the same place, the changed chromosome count might breed true, and humans 10,000s of years from now might have 22 rather than 23 chromosome pairs. See this article for more (beware - an important link in it, to Bo Wang's 2013 "Case Report: Potential Speciation in Humans Involving Robertsonian Translocations", is broken – use this link to its archive.org snapshot)

 

I hear a lot of silly stuff, especially as my wife and I have lately taken to recreationally surfing YouTube, which she calls “short attention-span TV”. This WhatCulture video reported an I-hope-inaccurate-but-I-fear-accurate survey result that 5% of US voters believe Queen Elizabeth and Barack Obama are shapeshifting reptilian overlords! :( I’m not sure if schadenfreude-y fun on youtube is good for a person, but pretty sure taking the stuff videos like this are making fun of seriously is not.

 

The Tower of Babel, is the clue .

The Tower of Babel story is IMHO the 2nd nastiest tale of YHWH in the Tanakh, after the Book of Job! From the KJV English translation:

Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there. They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”

 

But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.

 

Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

For all that it’s practically a prototype for an evil-ETs-messing-with-humankind scifi story, it’s a pretty silly one IMO, because despite us humans having had many languages since prehistoric times, we’ve always been pretty good at quickly learning one them. If a nasty god like the one in the Tower of Babel story “confused their language” to bedevil a bunch of people dedicated to a common purpose, I can’t imagine that they just wouldn’t spend a few days to relearn their languages, and settle on one in common. Their problem would be engineering, not communication, as building “a tower whose top is in the heavens” out of thoroughly baked bricks just won’t work. ;)

 

How would we know if we had been tampered with in order to increase our intelligence?

I don’t believe we could. Unlike bones and the rare soft tissue, DNA doesn’t fossilize or preserve well, so most of what we know about human DNA older than 45,000 years we know from comparing intact, present-day DNA of humans to that of other present-day animals. The genetic difference that give us the brain structures that allow us to have the language, symbolic though, and other skills that the other great apes have only the rudiments appear to be many, subtle, and complicated. We assume they appeared due to evolutionary selection rather than genetic engineering because there’s no evidence that genetic engineering has been possible other than by humans, and by us only for about the past 50 years. We don’t find any artifacts from advanced technologies on Earth 1,000,000 years ago, and we don’t see any evidence of advanced technology in outer space. In short, the Fermi paradox.

[A-wal]

I hear a lot of silly stuff, especially as my wife and I have lately taken to recreationally surfing YouTube, which she calls “short attention-span TV”. This WhatCulture video reported an I-hope-inaccurate-but-I-fear-accurate survey result that 5% of US voters believe Queen Elizabeth and Barack Obama are shapeshifting reptilian overlords! :( I’m not sure if schadenfreude-y fun on youtube is good for a person, but pretty sure taking the stuff videos like this are making fun of seriously is not.

Well I for one welcome our ancient Anunnaki god-king/queen overlords, I like reptiles. I think most people who post stuff on youtube about reptilians are taking the piss. I heard that the main flat Earth website isn't for believers but for practicing debating skills because if you can argue for that you can argue for anything. Not sure if it's true though but I'd like it to be. I think the church of the flying spaghetti monster is my favourite, I know their motives. Some Christians actually think they're for real and post on the website.  :)

Edited March 30, 2017 by A-wal

[Super Polymath]

Was watching a series on netflix with Neil deGrasse Tyson ,( I can't remember the title) and at one point he was talking about the hubris it takes for us humans to decide what intelligence is.  He mentioned that we are only 1% different from chimpanzees and the smartest of them is about as smart as a human toddler, and went on to say that if an alien species was only 1% above humans, than the smartest human would only be as smart as an alien toddler.  Then he asked how aliens of advanced intelligence would treat us.  "Would they put us in a zoo?"  he asked, and "Would we even be able to tell?" he continued.

 

 

Was this from a Cosmos episode? 

 

Cause I watched the whole series and don't recall, but I absolutely agree with his sentiments. 

 

 

 

There is the question.  How would we be able to tell that we are not in a zoo of some advanced species?

 

The universe is so hostile & impersonal that I don't believe that any level of super polymath organics would possess the time, nor the inclination, to put us in a zoo. 

 

Cosmomorphs, however. Their intentions would be to accelerate our evolution in order to propagate and survive though us, this might could be misconstrued as setting up a zoo for humans.  

[Super Polymath]

For all that it’s practically a prototype for an evil-ETs-messing-with-humankind scifi story, it’s a pretty silly one IMO, 

Cosigned.