What Exactly Is The Alt-Right

[sanctus]

Here is an article analyzing "white fragility", i.e. the reactions of white people when confronted with racism related issues like eg. white privilege. Quite an eye opener:
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/white-fragility-why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism-twlm/

[Maine farmer]

 

 

I'm familiar with privilege because I move in fairly wealthy circles. The average house price in my neighborhood pushes $3 million, and I know a large percentage of these people are convinced that they and their abilities are solely responsible for their success, when it's clear that their upbringing, schools and social connections along with a huge dose of luck mostly got them where they are. And it is embarrassing for many to admit that that might not be the case. Now that's not near the majority, and my house district voted for a Democrat last year for the first time since FDR.

 

 

Buffy

 

Well, there you go.  It is easy to be aware of privilege when you are practically swimming in!  But surely you must realize that there are a whole lot of people doing long days of back breaking work and barely getting by, and they really can't appreciate being told how much privilege they enjoy.  For the democrats to throw that at those people is not going to win them any votes.

 

I was out in the field fixing a harvester by the light of the headlights of an old truck, sweating and bleeding and wanting sleep, but the harvester being down was costing us, so I kept at it until I had it working, and it was hard to ponder my privilege.

[sanctus]

FarmingGuy:
http://occupywallstreet.net/story/explaining-white-privilege-broke-white-person

 

White privilege does not mean that you do not potentially have very harsh times.

[Maine farmer]

FarmingGuy:

http://occupywallstreet.net/story/explaining-white-privilege-broke-white-person

 

White privilege does not mean that you do not potentially have very harsh times.

Oh, i fully understand the whole " white privilege" thing, and I didn't say that I "couldn't" ponder my privilege, just that it was hard to do so.

 

A lot of people are worse off than me, and not for want of effort, and you have to understand how tough life can be for those people and perhaps think twice about pointing out their  privilege to them, especially if you are trying to win their votes.

[exchemist]

Well, there you go.  It is easy to be aware of privilege when you are practically swimming in!  But surely you must realize that there are a whole lot of people doing long days of back breaking work and barely getting by, and they really can't appreciate being told how much privilege they enjoy.  For the democrats to throw that at those people is not going to win them any votes.

 

I was out in the field fixing a harvester by the light of the headlights of an old truck, sweating and bleeding and wanting sleep, but the harvester being down was costing us, so I kept at it until I had it working, and it was hard to ponder my privilege.

Well exactly. It seems to me a loaded term that reverses the true state of affairs.

 

What we actually have is large groups of people who are unfairly disadvantaged in various ways, some obvious some less so. They are not being given their due rights in society. The issue is lack of rights, not the conferring of selective advantages.

 

When it is put in terms of "privilege", it subtly suggests someone or something is conferring these privileges, selectively. Which quite clearly detracts from the sense of achievement or the peace of mind of those deemed to be so "privileged". But this is not the process at work, at all. 

[serenesam]

People should Google "white flight."

[serenesam]

Shame on those counter-protesters at Charlottesville because The Alt-Right had a permit. I wonder how many crybabies are going to show up at the 2017 NPI Conference this winter. 

[Buffy]

Shame on those counter-protesters at Charlottesville because The Alt-Right had a permit. I wonder how many crybabies are going to show up at the 2017 NPI Conference this winter.

 

For the record, the counter-protesters did indeed have a valid permit:

 

 

Every word that comes after "And the Lord told me. . . “ is a pious lie, :phones:

Buffy

[Maine farmer]

Oceanbreeze, just to let you know a few years ago (like 10 or so) the discussion here would have been normal, not hot. I joined for the popular science, stayed for political and religious discussions.

 

Anyway, are you really sure you never experienced white privilege? My take is you just don't notice (and me neither not putting myself above), because negative things affect us more and hence we do notice and remember, while positive/neutral things we forget easier. Example did you ever look for a place to rent, met the landlord, thought you got along well and got the place? Now try to imagine how it would have gone if you were black or native with similar salary/background otherwise...I am not making this up as you know.

 

Or did you ever have to show you can pay before going to eat in a restaurant?

 

Or where you ever scared of pissing off police?

 

Or did anyone ever move to sit somewhere else on the bus/train when you showed up?

 

Or ever scared of being branded a parasite, just because you took a day off to sit on a bench in a park?

 

The list goes on and  I guess you see what I mean, each and every white person in the west has white privilege throughout her/his life, but wew do not notice because for us it is normal. Until we get the eye-opening moment where we are on the other side and see what it is like (been there, got that), at least. Or ask non-whites about it.

 

I think one of the real problems with the "alt - right" is not that they don't think that they have white privilege, but they believe they are entitled to it, and they view any attempt at raising up other races as an attempt to take it away.

[sanctus]

I think one of the real problems with the "alt - right" is not that they don't think that they have white privilege, but they believe they are entitled to it, and they view any attempt at raising up other races as an attempt to take it away.

But isn't that a given, since they are also described as white supremacists?

[Maine farmer]

But isn't that a given, since they are also described as white supremacists?

Well, yes, but when you start throwing the 'white privilege' at people who just feel like their life sucks,  and at people who struggled and clawed their way out of poverty, you risk turning a potential ally into a 'alt - right' sympathizer.  It ends up just being another way of dividing people.

 

I am aware of my privilege, but you need to remember that it takes much more than privilege to be successful.  Some people might say I was "given' my share of the farm, but I never stopped working since the day I was strong enough to lift a shovel.

[sanctus]

See your point FarmingGuy. I did not think of it this way. I guess that is why I am not politcs ;-). But are you sure? I mean the article I posted above was about the person getting out of poverty and hearing about being privileged first got pissed then read up on it. The ones who would not read up on it most like anyway fall for the next populist thing.

I guess it has also to do a lot with some1 said above, that people equate privilege with undeserved in their head. So calling it "white advantage" might be a better approach.

All I understand by white privilege it is not a matter of your situtation, it just is that for any situation you are in the next step is easier if you are white...eg. a white and a non-white junkie want to get help, it will be easier to get it for the white one.

[Maine farmer]

See your point FarmingGuy. I did not think of it this way. I guess that is why I am not politcs ;-). But are you sure? I mean the article I posted above was about the person getting out of poverty and hearing about being privileged first got pissed then read up on it. The ones who would not read up on it most like anyway fall for the next populist thing.

 

I guess it has also to do a lot with some1 said above, that people equate privilege with undeserved in their head. So calling it "white advantage" might be a better approach.

 

All I understand by white privilege it is not a matter of your situtation, it just is that for any situation you are in the next step is easier if you are white...eg. a white and a non-white junkie want to get help, it will be easier to get it for the white one.

Something else to consider is discrimination against the poor.  I live in a mostly 'white' area that used to be much more 'white', and I have a neighbor who grew up in town and in poverty.  He was harassed in school for wearing the same clothes every day (the only clothes he had), had a teacher call him "disgusting" and was harassed by the local police.  He saw the children of the town's wealthy use drugs, but he was the one the police would search.

[OceanBreeze]

I don't buy that, I'm afraid. It is offensive to resort to the patronising psychobabble of "defence mechanisms" in this context. By talking in this way, you are claiming that people are not being rational but are instead being emotional or driven by subconscious psychological factors. I don't believe that for an instant. 

 

It is perfectly reasonable to hear echoes of "undeserved", in the way the term "privilege" is bandied around nowadays in contexts like this. If you look up dictionary definitions you find words like "favour" used to describe privilege. This implies something given by someone else, ex gratia, i.e. not a right and not based on merit. 

 

I firmly believe we should stick to labelling prejudice and racism as such, without trying to inflict a collective guilt trip on the innocent majority of law-abiding citizens.

 

If we don't, we lose their support...and the result is Trump! 

 

Well said.

If there is white privilege built into the system, it didn’t start with the founding fathers in the USA. I think you will need to go back much farther than that, further than the Industrial Revolution, much further, all the way back to the human migration out of Africa.

 The people who migrated out of Africa found a different environment, one that favored the development of civilization because they did not need to spend all of their efforts on just surviving, as the sub-Sahara Africans did.

So maybe “white privilege’ started due entirely to environmental factors and has absolutely nothing to do with skin color, as we are all of African descent.

Whatever the reasons may have been, there is no doubt that civilization flourished in Eurasia while it seemingly stagnated in sub-Sahara Africa. Now, no doubt the flaming liberals will be crying “racist” even though my statement of historical fact has absolutely nothing to do with race!

Today there is no systemic institutional racism in the USA, (with the possible exception of Affirmative Action) and in fact there are many laws on the books to prevent racial discrimination. But, changing the way some people think is another matter altogether.

There are all sorts of “privileges” in this world that have just come about naturally, by the luck of the draw and attempts to level the playing field for all can verge on the ludicrous. Should we lower the hoop so more White guys can dunk, or require the hiring of more Black place kickers in the NFL?

Personally, I think adding points to somebody’s SAT score because of their skin color is patronizing and condescending, besides being unfair, just as it is to say someone has achieved success due to their “white privilege” when in fact they had to work extremely hard to achieve what they did.

The white supremists are a bunch of losers, but so are the bleeding-heart liberals who think all white people are born with some sort of original sin and have to feel guilt and shame for their “privilege”. Now, that IS racism.

 

And, probably nothing is more hypocritical and disgusting than a white person living in an “average” 3 million dollar house, with snide pretensions of being a social equality warrior, decrying “white privilege” on the Internets.

 

Trying to correct past racism with more racism is not the solution, just part of the problem.

 

 

 

 

[OceanBreeze]

 

HAHAHAHAHahahahah! "Cannot accept" exactly....how?

 

 

 

Your stressed out nervous, forced laughter is a dead giveaway that I hit a nerve when I said "My take: there are Democrats, particularly  Hillary supporters, who simply cannot, and will not accept the fact that HRC lost the election"

 

Face it. You cannot accept that Billary, and you, lost so all you can do now is try to undermine the lawfully elected president because you don't like him.

[Buffy]

Your stressed out nervous, forced laughter is a dead giveaway that I hit a nerve when I said "My take: there are Democrats, particularly  Hillary supporters, who simply cannot, and will not accept the fact that HRC lost the election"

 

Face it. You cannot accept that Billary, and you, lost so all you can do now is try to undermine the lawfully elected president because you don't like him.

 

Your stressed out nervous, indignation is a dead giveaway that I hit a nerve when I said "My take: there are Republicans , particularly  Tea Party supporters, who simply cannot, and will not accept the fact that Trump and the GOP-controlled Congress can't govern their way out of a paper bag."

 

Face it. You cannot accept that Lil' Donnie, and you, are a bunch of incompetent lunatics, so all you can do now is try to sabotage the rule of law because you don't like it.

 

 

Gosh, cogent, reasoned, fact-based rhetoric is so simple, *anyone* can do it! :cheer:

 

 

Your mother was a hampster and your father smells of elderberries! :phones:

Buffy

[Buffy]

Whatever the reasons may have been, there is no doubt that civilization flourished in Eurasia while it seemingly stagnated in sub-Sahara Africa. Now, no doubt the flaming liberals will be crying “racist” even though my statement of historical fact has absolutely nothing to do with race!

From a purely evolutionary viewpoint of course, what you're arguing here is Allopatric Speciation. I mean, you *are* saying that people of color aren't as capable/energetic/intelligent as white people and that's why class differences show a correlation with race, right?

 

If that's not it, why *do* we see that correlation?

 

Today there is no systemic institutional racism in the USA, (with the possible exception of Affirmative Action) and in fact there are many laws on the books to prevent racial discrimination. But, changing the way some people think is another matter altogether.

Thank goodness "Systemic Institutional Racism" is the only kind that matters or has any effect! :cheer:

 

There are all sorts of “privileges” in this world that have just come about naturally, by the luck of the draw and attempts to level the playing field for all can verge on the ludicrous. Should we lower the hoop so more White guys can dunk, or require the hiring of more Black place kickers in the NFL?

Let's see, are there different kinds of "privilege?"

 

"The guy's tall, let's make him the Center."

"She built that user interface really fast with almost no bugs, let's put her in charge of the project."

"Bob's dad is on the membership committee of the country club I'm trying to join. I'm going to hire him over Jaqu'an, whose name I can't even pronounce."

 

Indeed, to exchemist's point, which of these are actually "privilege" as opposed to skills that are more valuable as commodities and thus rightfully earn them higher salaries?

 

Personally, I think adding points to somebody’s SAT score because of their skin color is patronizing and condescending, besides being unfair, just as it is to say someone has achieved success due to their “white privilege” when in fact they had to work extremely hard to achieve what they did.

 

 

Is there a difference between:

 

1. "Bob and Jaqu'an have identical skill sets and similar records of success, but we've got nothing but white guys here, so let's hire Jaqu'an."
2. "Bob is much more qualified than Jaqu'an, but we have a quota to fill so we have to hire Jaqu'an."

 

It's remarkable to me, how many of my perfectly moderate white conservative friends are absolutely convinced that only 2 is what "affirmative action" is about.

 

As I said in a previous post, ask your African American captain about this one.

 

 

The white supremists are a bunch of losers, but so are the bleeding-heart liberals who think all white people are born with some sort of original sin and have to feel guilt and shame for their “privilege”. Now, that IS racism.

 

 

I wonder if there's something more than "guilt and shame" that might motivate it. I mean my great-great-grandpappy owned slaves on his plantation in Greensboro North Carolina, so I guess I should feel some "guilt and shame."

 

But you know, as a business owner, I've found that if I'm selling to people of color, if I have sales people who are of color too, I get more sales! As a CTO, I've found that bringing in people of different backgrounds means that they have different training and think about problems in different ways and come up with different solutions.

 

As I like to say, most "liberal solutions" have perfectly greedy justifications.

 

And, probably nothing is more hypocritical and disgusting than a white person living in an “average” 3 million dollar house, with snide pretensions of being a social equality warrior, decrying “white privilege” on the Internets.

 

 

Well, ya got me there. I just wonder y'all keep voting for such people just because they tell you they're "conservative?" I mean, what do Donald, or Mitt, or those Bushes know about what your life is like?

 

As for me, honestly, like I say, I'm just trying to improve my company's profitability! No SJW stuff needed! :cheer:

 

Trying to correct past racism with more racism is not the solution, just part of the problem.

 

Now when you're poor and white, these "affirmative action" things--especially when you're absolutely convinced that it means someone less capable than you is getting an unfair advantage--sure look exactly like racism. It's not really unreasonable in fact. Except for that part about it being about people who are "less capable," and unfortunately it's exactly that point that gets people's dander up.

 

But of course, that isn't how it works, and unfortunately, the fact is that you don't have to have laws or even company rules that are explicitly racist for "soft-racism"--really just affinity for your social group--to result in the fact that you don't need to do much computation to see that white people dominate industries and positions of power to numbers that are far out of line with the population distribution.

 

Arguing about causes is perfectly fair game, in fact it's necessary to figure out how we get away from a place where seemingly everybody--white, black, yellow, brown--thinks they're discriminated against.

 

It's interesting to note that people on the far left AND the far right are convinced that if you just completely ignore color and recognize this is a *class* issue, that everything will be hunky dory.

 

Unfortunately this completely ignores the fact that color is highly correlated with familial and social groupings, and those family/social groupings do cause bias. That allows people who swear that they have not a single racist bone in their body, to actually "act racist" by unthinkingly making choices based on what is "familiar" to them. To a great extent this can be innocuous, but it also can be insidious, and result in the very feelings of victimization that so many feel today. 

 

Bottom line here of course is that there are lots of strong feelings, and unless you get out and talk to people, one won't have a clue that one's worldview is both limited and, yes, biased.

 

So having some compassion can open one's mind, but honestly, the reason for pushing for "mixing of the races" is really just good ol' fashioned capitalist greed. 

 

It just needs a little motivation from society (aka "evil gub'mint").

 

 

Cultural speciation had been crippling to human moral and spiritual growth. It had hindered freedom of thought, limited our thinking, imprisoned us in the cultures into which we had been born. :phones:

Buffy