Trump

[TomKalbfus]

Tom another reason to kneel during the anthem is that it is a very effective form of peaceful protest (see the attention it gets!), you say they should love that flag since it is what freed them. Well back then it was true, now though it is the flag of the whole country and the whole country is full of racial injustice (as well as social injustice)

 

Wrt to accomplishments read through this (lots of things I did not know about since going to a school in the west):

http://www.asbmb.org/asbmbtoday/asbmbtoday_article.aspx?id=32437

 

Or this one even better (early seismograph around year 0 for instance!):

http://listverse.com/2009/12/20/10-great-non-european-achievers/

 

Lets say you are "Joe the racist" and you see black football players kneeling while the Star Spangled Banner is being played, and in spite of being a racist, you still love your country, now if you see that happening on television, what do you think is more likely to happen? Is the racist going to say, "Uh oh, I better not be racist anymore,"  or is he going to feel that his racism against black people is being vindicated because he feels that, "black people are not patriotic?" Yes kneeling before the flag on national television does get them attention, and I bet you that racists like David Duke are just loving it, because he can now point to how "unpatriotic black people are!" If the idea is for people  to tolerate one another and get along, then showing a lack of patriotism visible for all to see on television, is not the way to do it! They are making it harder to intergrate them into this society if they are showing that they do not want to be a part of it by visibly not saluting the flag on television! This does not eliminate racism at all. Racists seeing this are not going to be shamed into not being racist, you should know better than to believe otherwise.  Do you think David Duke is going to stop being a racist after seeing this, honestly?

Edited October 13, 2017 by TomKalbfus

[Buffy]

Then why are they kneeling in front of the flag, you tell me why they are doing it. I don't think the flag as anything to do with racism, but I'll tell you what the flag actually stands for. The 13 red and white stripes stand for the 13 colonies that declared their independence from the British Empire and established the United States of America, the stars on the blue field stands for the current number of states in the United States, the colors are red white and blue, none of it stands for racism or slavery, so if they are protesting racism, then why are they disrespecting the flag of the country that freed the slaves?

 

I find it odd that you don't bother to actually look at what the people who are actually doing the kneeling say, and prefer to listen only to propaganda from the people who are trying to rile you up and get you to hate your fellow citizens.

 

Here's what Eric Reid, one of the first players to join Colin Kaepernick wrote in the New York Times:

 

In early 2016, I began paying attention to reports about the incredible number of unarmed black people being killed by the police. The posts on social media deeply disturbed me, but one in particular brought me to tears: the killing of Alton Sterling in my hometown Baton Rouge, La. This could have happened to any of my family members who still live in the area. I felt furious, hurt and hopeless. I wanted to do something, but didn’t know what or how to do it. All I knew for sure is that I wanted it to be as respectful as possible.

 

A few weeks later, during preseason, my teammate Colin Kaepernick chose to sit on the bench during the national anthem to protest police brutality. To be honest, I didn’t notice at the time, and neither did the news media. It wasn’t until after our third preseason game on Aug. 26, 2016, that his protest gained national attention, and the backlash against him began.

 

That’s when my faith moved me to take action. I looked to James 2:17, which states, “Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” I knew I needed to stand up for what is right.

 

I approached Colin the Saturday before our next game to discuss how I could get involved with the cause but also how we could make a more powerful and positive impact on the social justice movement. We spoke at length about many of the issues that face our community, including systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system. We also discussed how we could use our platform, provided to us by being professional athletes in the N.F.L., to speak for those who are voiceless.

 

After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.

 

It baffles me that our protest is still being misconstrued as disrespectful to the country, flag and military personnel. We chose it because it’s exactly the opposite. It has always been my understanding that the brave men and women who fought and died for our country did so to ensure that we could live in a fair and free society, which includes the right to speak out in protest.

Now what shocks me is that all the consternation about this is related to this "disrespect for the flag and our anthem."

 

I'm sorry, flags and anthems are *symbols*. I don't know about you, but I care about respect for the actual Constitution, our rule of law, and our commitment to working out our differences through compromise and the democratic process.

 

I can see that on the right though, the Constitution is actually hated: the 2nd Amendment isn't absolute enough and yesterday Trump was mad about the 1st Amendment and demanded NBC lose their license for publishing things he didn't think were "respectful" of him.

 

But no, the only thing that's important "respecting" symbols. The veterans I know did not put their lives on the line for a flag or a song or even a president with a pathological sense of grandiosity, they did it to preserve our laws and our values, and those who are against them are increasingly ill-informed citizens who are threatening those fundamental elements of what really makes America "great."

 

It looks like you can't see that. To quote the subject of this thread, "Sad!"

 

 

Reality has a well-known liberal bias, :phones:

Buffy

[Maine farmer]

Don't get me wrong, there are white people who are ungrateful for their fortunes as well, but the black football players are highly visible examples of success, and their ingratitude is showing.

 

They are not kneeling out of ingratitude, they are kneeling for those without voice, for those who are shot just because of the color of their skin, for those who live without justice.

 

 Racists have not held them back. there is a law of diminishing returns, the percentage of racists in the population is small enough so that they can be ignored, they don't affect the success of black people if they really want to succeed. 

Tell that to the mothers of the dead children.  

 

 The thing to do right now is let people have their opinions and ignore them if you don't like them. If their racism is not hurting anybody, then its best to let them have their freedom of speech. 

Racism hurts everyone, and while the racist may express their opinions, it is up to us to exercise our freedom of speech and call them out for their ignorance or hatred, whichever may apply.  You seem to only want freedom of speech for the white racist, and the "blacks" to remain grateful that they have escaped the worst consequences.

[TomKalbfus]

They are not kneeling out of ingratitude, they are kneeling for those without voice, for those who are shot just because of the color of their skin, for those who live without justice.

 

Tell that to the mothers of the dead children.  

 

Racism hurts everyone, and while the racist may express their opinions, it is up to us to exercise our freedom of speech and call them out for their ignorance or hatred, whichever may apply.  You seem to only want freedom of speech for the white racist, and the "blacks" to remain grateful that they have escaped the worst consequences.

It didn't hurt the football players, it didn't prevent Barack Obama from being elected President. Why do you want to provide all this free publicity for the Klu Klux Klan and Aryan Nations? Those organizations aren't as big as they once were, but a publicity stunt like this helps them to grow, especially a publicity stunt with blacks disrespecting the US flag and National Anthem, that just serves the cause of White Nationalism, and you know why? Because those black football players are separating themselves out from America when they do that. They are telling the public in effect, "We are not Americans, we are Black!" The American Flag is not the flag of the Flu Klux Klan, their flag is the Confederate Stars and Bars. The American Flag is not the flag of the Aryan Nations, that flag is the Swastika. If you want to protest those movements, protest those flags! Do not lump American Patriots in with racists, I find that highly offensive! If Football Players need to explain that they don't hate America when they disrespect the American Flag, they are not protesting racism very effectively! If they need to explain themselves, they should try to do something else, because they are not sending the right message to the American People when they do that.

 

I can't let this pass without challenging this presumption:

 

"You seem to only want freedom of speech for the white racist, and the "blacks" to remain grateful that they have escaped the worst consequences."

 

Is that your scientific opinion? What evidence do you have which supports that statement? I am offended by those football players, because they are starting out with the assumption that American is a racist nation, and that the American flag symbolizes racism. They are lumping American Patriots together with racists and in the process they are making new enemies! The fact that I disagree with your assertion or that I disagree with you does not make me a racist! Do you know what the Scientific Method is? It is not a witch hunt! You shouldn't go around throwing the word "racist" around, you make a lot of enemies that way, and it deflects attention from the real racists by diluting the potency of that word.

Edited October 14, 2017 by TomKalbfus

[TomKalbfus]

 

I find it odd that you don't bother to actually look at what the people who are actually doing the kneeling say, and prefer to listen only to propaganda from the people who are trying to rile you up and get you to hate your fellow citizens.

 

Here's what Eric Reid, one of the first players to join Colin Kaepernick wrote in the New York Times:

 

Now what shocks me is that all the consternation about this is related to this "disrespect for the flag and our anthem."

 

I'm sorry, flags and anthems are *symbols*. I don't know about you, but I care about respect for the actual Constitution, our rule of law, and our commitment to working out our differences through compromise and the democratic process.

 

I can see that on the right though, the Constitution is actually hated: the 2nd Amendment isn't absolute enough and yesterday Trump was mad about the 1st Amendment and demanded NBC lose their license for publishing things he didn't think were "respectful" of him.

 

But no, the only thing that's important "respecting" symbols. The veterans I know did not put their lives on the line for a flag or a song or even a president with a pathological sense of grandiosity, they did it to preserve our laws and our values, and those who are against them are increasingly ill-informed citizens who are threatening those fundamental elements of what really makes America "great."

 

It looks like you can't see that. To quote the subject of this thread, "Sad!"

 

 

Reality has a well-known liberal bias, :phones:

Buffy

 

"I find it odd that you don't bother to actually look at what the people who are actually doing the kneeling say, and prefer to listen only to propaganda from the people who are trying to rile you up and get you to hate your fellow citizens."

 

The symbolism should speak for itself, if one needs to explain it, it is not a very effective way to protest. What they are saying is an excuse, the truth is, they don't really like America, and they are finding out that expressing it to an audience of Americans is hurting their bottom line, they are playing American Football after all! For example, if You raise your right arm, and go "Heil Hitler" in front of a crowd of Jews, you will probably offend them, explaining after you did so, that you really didn't mean to offend any Jews and that you were really trying to call attention to the problem of Homelessness big cities after you did that, does not help, the Jews are still offended. In a similar vein, disrespecting the American flag offends a lot of Americans, they reason you state for doing so doesn't help, if you say that it is other than what many people think it is. If you burn the American flag to draw attention to the homeless problem in big cities, you are not doing your cause much good, after you burn that flag, people will stop listening to what you have to say, because they figure that it is probably something that they don't want to hear.

 

I'll give you an example, Martin Luther King, he did not disrespect the American Flag, he tried persuading people who were racist not to be racist, offending more people does little to fight racism, and disrespecting the American flag offends more people, it doesn't diminish the number of racists. The Klu Klux Klan won't suddenly stop being racist because some black football players disrespect the American flag, to them such actions only confirms their prejudice, it might even bring in some new recruits. I don't know where you would get the idea that kneeling in front of the flag somehow stops racism. Use the scientific method, what evidence is there that what those football players are doing actually reduces the level or racism in this country? Can you point to any racists that stated they will stop being racists because they saw some black football players kneeling in a football stadium when the National Anthem is being played?

 

"But no, the only thing that's important "respecting" symbols. The veterans I know did not put their lives on the line for a flag or a song or even a president with a pathological sense of grandiosity, they did it to preserve our laws and our values, and those who are against them are increasingly ill-informed citizens who are threatening those fundamental elements of what really makes America "great.""

 

It is not the symbols themselves but what they represent. The American flag is not the United States of America, but if you burn the American flag, you are telling folks how you feel about America.

 

By the way, the Presidential Campaign is over, Donald Trump won, get over it! It is really becoming clear to me, that for many Democrats, the 2016 Presidential Campaign never really ended, You know if you can't accept your defeats, you learn nothing from them. The Democrats have got to start learning and try to find out why they lost! In order for a Democracy to work, you need contested elections in order to hold the politicians accountable. What the Democrats need is more honest politicians, not the tricky kind. the Media needs to be fair and balanced, they shouldn't be in one corner lying to get one party in power, and that is what most of them did on the 2016 Presidential Election night, they gave false reports of Hillary Clinton surging ahead in the polls in order to depress the pro-Trump voters, it didn't work! The pro-Trump voters were pro-Trump because they didn't like the situation in America, they didn't like the subpar growth rate, they didn't like what Obama was doing with foreign policy, they didn't like a lot of things, and the Media was not reporting that sentiment, but they still felt it. The Media has gradually over time turned into a Soviet Style propaganda Machine, it wants the Democrats to win, I don't know why, and it has been increasingly dishonest with its reporting in order to affect the election results, and now that Trump won, it is trying to find as much bad news, misreport, and even make stuff up in an attempt to generate bad publicity and get Trump impeached. Lets just worry about the country.

Edited October 14, 2017 by TomKalbfus

[Maine farmer]

 

 

I can't let this pass without challenging this presumption:

 

"You seem to only want freedom of speech for the white racist, and the "blacks" to remain grateful that they have escaped the worst consequences."

 

Is that your scientific opinion? What evidence do you have which supports that statement? I am offended by those football players, because they are starting out with the assumption that American is a racist nation, and that the American flag symbolizes racism. They are lumping American Patriots together with racists and in the process they are making new enemies! The fact that I disagree with your assertion or that I disagree with you does not make me a racist! Do you know what the Scientific Method is? It is not a witch hunt! You shouldn't go around throwing the word "racist" around, you make a lot of enemies that way, and it deflects attention from the real racists by diluting the potency of that word.

The quote you chose of mine is just a summary of your writing.  You expect them to ignore the speech of the racists and take offense of their exercise of their own freedom.  Do you care to clarify that you don't really believe the "black" race to be inferior to the "white"?

 

Consider the cost of racism. https://www.wkkf.org/news-and-media/article/2013/10/the-business-case-for-racial-equity-quantifies-the-cost-of-racism-in-the-us

 

On the subject of patriotism, where is Trump's?  He mocked senator John Mccaine's disability and called him a "loser" for having been captured.  Mccaine, by the way, could have avoided the torture because he was the son of a general, the Vietmamese had offered to return him, but Mccaine refused out of loyalty to the men with which he served.

 

Which is worse, refusing to stand for the flag, or mocking those who sacrificed for their country

Edited October 14, 2017 by Farming guy

[hazelm]

FG-I agree there is very little good in him. I keep looking for some in different situations, but I don't see it in any of his actions. I work in the water industry and Trump through EPA director Pruitt are slowly dismantling regulations that have been in place for years.

 

We constantly analyze and reap data from testing different locations, the water intake, inside the plant at several locations and the send-out product. As well we should in light of the Flint Michigan crisis. You would think the regs would get tighter on us, not loosen up. If my operators were required to do tests on all his/her samples for Ph, alkalinity, Cl2, etc. every two hours, and now that data is required only once per eight hours, it won't save the company any money. It will just be less work for my operators, less tests for them to run. I can't imagine what's going on with the regs. concerning oil and gas companies.

 

Buffy,

 

I've also noticed the different classifications of Trump supporters and lots of misdirected blame.

 

On a side note, do either of you know why he is so adamant about Mexico building/paying for the wall? If he wants it so bad why doesn't he just build it? I understand it was a campaign promise, but the US has plenty of money he could just build it and be done with it. I don't think the people that want the wall care how it gets there, they just want it up. He could even spin it to say he's creating jobs on this side of the border. Why is he insistent that they pay for it? Am I missing something?

Buffy, I think his reason is to convince the non-thinking of us that he is not using our tax dollars.  That seems to be about all some folk worry about - don't use our tax dollars.  It saddens me because, years ago, I - and thousands of other Americans and Mexicans crossed back and forth over that border daily with no trouble whatsoever.  No passports asked for; no green cards; no "who are you and where were you born.  Just friendly hellos.    We went to Mexico for a day of touring; Mexicans came to Texas for a day of work.  In the evening it worked the other way around.  Freedom of movement.  The Mexican police spoke fluent English and pointed out places to visit and areas to avoid.  Every city has the latter, wherever we are.  But that was long, long ago.  Isn't going to happen today.    I just remembered my one and only visit to Canada.  Those Royal Mounted examined us much more closely. 

 

Back to the first Amendment, it also says "right to peaceably assemble. Peaceably!  I don't think that is what we are witnessing. 

 

As for Mr. Trump, I was watching him in action long before the idea of him becoming president ever surfaced the ocean waves.  Nothing is surprising me.  As they say in the world of economics, "you get what you pay for". 

[TomKalbfus]

The quote you chose of mine is just a summary of your writing.  You expect them to ignore the speech of the racists and take offense of their exercise of their own freedom.  Do you care to clarify that you don't really believe the "black" race to be inferior to the "white"?

 

 

Consider the cost of racism. https://www.wkkf.org/news-and-media/article/2013/10/the-business-case-for-racial-equity-quantifies-the-cost-of-racism-in-the-us

 

On the subject of patriotism, where is Trump's?  He mocked senator John Mccaine's disability and called him a "loser" for having been captured.  Mccaine, by the way, could have avoided the torture because he was the son of a general, the Vietmamese had offered to return him, but Mccaine refused out of loyalty to the men with which he served.

 

Which is worse, refusing to stand for the flag, or mocking those who sacrificed for their country

" Do you care to clarify that you don't really believe the "black" race to be inferior to the "white"?"

 

I never used the word "inferior" and you know it! Don't put words in my mouth, and stop "reading" between the lines, that I not what scientists do!

Blacks and whites are different, that is obvious if you look at a professional football team. I wouldn't exactly call them "inferior" when it comes to playing football, would you? Also when was the last time you've seen a white heavy weight boxing champion, that only happens on Rocky movies these days. There are some physical differences between the races, if that were not true, they wouldn't look different, color is after all a physical property. Blacks on average do better in sports than white people, they also tend to be larger and stronger on average, that is why more than 50% of football teams are black, and you see very few Asian football players. The biggest guys tend to dominate the sport, I wouldn't exactly call that "inferior" would you?

 

"

On the subject of patriotism, where is Trump's?  He mocked senator John Mccaine's disability and called him a "loser" for having been captured.  Mccaine, by the way, could have avoided the torture because he was the son of a general, the Vietmamese had offered to return him, but Mccaine refused out of loyalty to the men with which he served.

 

Which is worse, refusing to stand for the flag, or mocking those who sacrificed for their country"

 

John McCain didn't help his fellow soldiers by remaining captured. A coerced confession or statement is of no value. John McCain would have done better by his country by not getting captured in the first place, that way the North Vietnamese could not use him as a political pawn. It probably is best not to get captured by the Enemy, when the Enemy is Asian. Asians tend to be cruel and inhumane, it is a given that they like to torture POWs because they consider people who surrender to be dishonorable, McCain had the history of World War II and the Japanese to know what he would be in for if he got captured. The Japanese were cruel, the North Koreans were cruel, and so were the North Vietnamese. The Germans during World War I and World War II treated POWs much better.

 

 

"Consider the cost of racism. https://www.wkkf.org/news-and-media/article/2013/10/the-business-case-for-racial-equity-quantifies-the-cost-of-racism-in-the-us"

 

How do you know what is racism? Does every black person who does not get the job he is seeking get to blame racism? Its one thing for someone to tell them, "Sorry, we don't serve black people at this lunch counter," but its quite another thing if someone says, "Sorry, you just don't meet our qualifications for this job, we've found someone who meets those qualifications much better." I've looked for a lot of jobs, and every time I did not get the job I wanted, I did not get to blame racism for my failure because I'm not black! When you get to blame racism for everything, you don't have to own up to your responsibility for your failure. If you are black and you ask a white woman out on a date and she says, "no", then you get to call her a racist, and then maybe she'll go out with you just to prove that she is not a racist, or so you hope! So if you can't find a job, its because your black, if you robbed a store, its because you couldn't find a job because your black, and if you go to jail, its because your black! Do you see how dangerous this becomes?

 

My suggestion to any black person that blames everything on racism and how white people are treating them, would be to go some place where there is not as many white people, such as Sub-Saharan Africa for instance. When I hear talk about how most white people are unknowingly racist, that just says to me, that no matter what we do, they will always consider us to be racist, so my answer is, what's they use of them staying in the United States, they are a minority here and always complain about racism, so why don't they go some place where they are not a minority, like Africa for instance? If they can't find that job in Africa, if that African employer won't hire him, they can't claim racism like they can here, but maybe that is why they stay, so they can have some white person to blame for when things go wrong in their lives, and they can say it is not their fault! What do you think?

Edited October 14, 2017 by TomKalbfus

[Buffy]

For example, if You raise your right arm, and go "Heil Hitler" in front of a crowd of Jews, you will probably offend them, explaining after you did so, that you really didn't mean to offend any Jews and that you were really trying to call attention to the problem of Homelessness big cities after you did that, does not help, the Jews are still offended. In a similar vein, disrespecting the American flag offends a lot of Americans, they reason you state for doing so doesn't help, if you say that it is other than what many people think it is. If you burn the American flag to draw attention to the homeless problem in big cities, you are not doing your cause much good, after you burn that flag, people will stop listening to what you have to say, because they figure that it is probably something that they don't want to hear.

You're really going to hang your argument on "not standing for the anthem is exactly the same thing as pledging allegiance to a murderer of 6 million Jews?"

 

Wow. That's really grasping at straws.

 

I know you probably don't live in a place with many Jews, but please do go ahead and find one ask them if "kneeling during the anthem is as bad as giving the Seig Heil salute in a synagogue."

 

You might want to wear a helmet when you do that though.

 

If you burn the American flag to draw attention to the homeless problem in big cities, you are not doing your cause much good, after you burn that flag, people will stop listening to what you have to say, because they figure that it is probably something that they don't want to hear.

I don't know whether you noticed this or not, but they're not burning the flag. And don't take some lefty source as confirmation of it, just go to Antonin Scalia to find out that even right-wing conservatives agree that that's protected:

 

If I were king, I would not allow people to go around burning the American flag. However, we have a First Amendment, which says that the right of free speech shall not be abridged ― and it is addressed in particular to speech critical of the government. That was the main kind of speech that tyrants would seek to suppress.

Ergo, even if they were burning the flag, they'd be exercising their right to free speech. And yet here we have the President breaking a half dozen specific laws as well as the First Amendment, calling for them to be fired.

 

And similarly to the Nazi salute, calling kneeling the "same as" flag burning is seriously over the top. You'd have to be a real snowflake to get worked up about it.

 

And that's exactly the point. As the article I linked notes, kneeling was chosen specifically to show honor, and as noted by many others, it also had the specific benefit have having no prior symbolism in history thus separating it from negative connotations of flag burning.

 

So the bottom line is, saying "they should know it would trigger a bunch of right wing bigots" is actually kind of the point: the only folks who are offended here are reduced to grasping at straws for why it's so offensive precisely because they don't like the real message which is about calling attention to black and brown people being killed by police in numbers far out of proportion to their percentage of the population.

 

 

I'll give you an example, Martin Luther King, he did not disrespect the American Flag, he tried persuading people who were racist not to be racist, offending more people does little to fight racism, and disrespecting the American flag offends more people, it doesn't diminish the number of racists. The Klu Klux Klan won't suddenly stop being racist because some black football players disrespect the American flag, to them such actions only confirms their prejudice, it might even bring in some new recruits.

Ah the good old "evoke MLK as agreeing with me" trope.

 

Since your knowledge of the civil rights movement is so incredibly deficient, you should know that calling what MLK did "trying to persuade people who were racist not to be racist" is literal "whitewashing." If what he did was just 'persuading" how come he spent so much time in jail? And guess what? A lot of the animosity toward him was that he *did* use the American flag as a symbol against racism, making the point that the laws of the country and the Constitution guaranteed civil rights, and that the racists were the ones corrupting the symbolism of the flag. 

 

That's not "persuading" dear. That's called "shaming." It royally pissed them off. It didn't convince them, it made them go back into their holes so they couldn't recruit except among sociopaths and narcissists that dominate the White Power movement today. 

 

 

I don't know where you would get the idea that kneeling in front of the flag somehow stops racism. Use the scientific method, what evidence is there that what those football players are doing actually reduces the level or racism in this country? Can you point to any racists that stated they will stop being racists because they saw some black football players kneeling in a football stadium when the National Anthem is being played?

 

So, to be clear, no one is saying that. That's what you call a "Straw Man."

 

Racists are going to be racist, and there's no convincing them. Just like there's no convincing you.

 

What they are doing is exactly what Martin Luther King did: protest visibly to get people who are just not thinking about it because it doesn't directly affect them to realize there's a problem, and people who are good citizens will join the cause to fix the problems in society.

 

If there was no need for such a thing, we wouldn't need the First Amendment, would we? 

 

But there is a need, and THAT is what our veterans fought for and died for, not some silly manufactured indignation about "kneeling being equivalent to hating America."

 

And finally, to be clear about how your whole argument is being perceived by African Americans and other people of color, there's this very popular t-shirt to explain it in the simplest of terms:

 

 

What the hell do you want them to do, given you won't listen ever because you think it's all Fake News?

 

By the way, the Presidential Campaign is over, Donald Trump won, get over it! It is really becoming clear to me, that for many Democrats, the 2016 Presidential Campaign never really ended,

 

 

The funny thing about this particular sentence is that it kind of sums up how you--and most of the remaining Trump supporters--feel about symbols: they're basically all there is to the world for you. If you looked at what is actually happening for 30 seconds, your heads might explode.

 

I hate to try to disabuse you of this notion, but again you're straw-manning what the Democrats--and now a growing segment of Republicans--are doing now to try to contain the damage being done by the Trump administration as somehow being obsessed with "the 2016 election." Dude, we know the election's over, Mueller's going to get to tell us what the heck happened, and while you'll never read it, Hillary's book is a pretty devastating self-examination of "What Happened."

 

No dear, what we're obsessed with is losing our insurance, signing over world trade dominance to the EU and the Chinese, and going to war with North Korea and Iran.

 

It's obvious you think all those things are Fake News that is only due to the idea that "The Media has gradually over time turned into a Soviet Style propaganda Machine."

 

All I can say is, you really ought to come out of your information bubble, but please do go ahead and stay there and away from the rest of us in the real world.

 

 

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity, :phones:

Buffy

[Maine farmer]

" Do you care to clarify that you don't really believe the "black" race to be inferior to the "white"?"

 

I never used the word "inferior" and you know it! Don't put words in my mouth, and stop "reading" between the lines, that I not what scientists do!

Blacks and whites are different, that is obvious if you look at a professional football team. I wouldn't exactly call them "inferior" when it comes to playing football, would you? Also when was the last time you've seen a white heavy weight boxing champion, that only happens on Rocky movies these days. There are some physical differences between the races, if that were not true, they wouldn't look different, color is after all a physical property. Blacks on average do better in sports than white people, they also tend to be larger and stronger on average, that is why more than 50% of football teams are black, and you see very few Asian football players. The biggest guys tend to dominate the sport, I wouldn't exactly call that "inferior" would you?

 

"

On the subject of patriotism, where is Trump's?  He mocked senator John Mccaine's disability and called him a "loser" for having been captured.  Mccaine, by the way, could have avoided the torture because he was the son of a general, the Vietmamese had offered to return him, but Mccaine refused out of loyalty to the men with which he served.

 

Which is worse, refusing to stand for the flag, or mocking those who sacrificed for their country"

 

John McCain didn't help his fellow soldiers by remaining captured. A coerced confession or statement is of no value. John McCain would have done better by his country by not getting captured in the first place, that way the North Vietnamese could not use him as a political pawn. It probably is best not to get captured by the Enemy, when the Enemy is Asian. Asians tend to be cruel and inhumane, it is a given that they like to torture POWs because they consider people who surrender to be dishonorable, McCain had the history of World War II and the Japanese to know what he would be in for if he got captured. The Japanese were cruel, the North Koreans were cruel, and so were the North Vietnamese. The Germans during World War I and World War II treated POWs much better.

 

 

"Consider the cost of racism. https://www.wkkf.org/news-and-media/article/2013/10/the-business-case-for-racial-equity-quantifies-the-cost-of-racism-in-the-us"

 

How do you know what is racism? Does every black person who does not get the job he is seeking get to blame racism? Its one thing for someone to tell them, "Sorry, we don't serve black people at this lunch counter," but its quite another thing if someone says, "Sorry, you just don't meet our qualifications for this job, we've found someone who meets those qualifications much better." I've looked for a lot of jobs, and every time I did not get the job I wanted, I did not get to blame racism for my failure because I'm not black! When you get to blame racism for everything, you don't have to own up to your responsibility for your failure. If you are black and you ask a white woman out on a date and she says, "no", then you get to call her a racist, and then maybe she'll go out with you just to prove that she is not a racist, or so you hope! So if you can't find a job, its because your black, if you robbed a store, its because you couldn't find a job because your black, and if you go to jail, its because your black! Do you see how dangerous this becomes?

 

Did it occur to you that many "black" people are not given the same educational opportunities as their "white" counterparts, and therefore athletics is one of the few areas open to them for success?  

 

As for hiring, if you have an instance where you have two equally qualified individuals, and you choose the "white" person, that is racism.  Without affirmative action, you would see more "black" people denied jobs and promotions.  If you have to spend time trying to disqualify the "black" person, then you are being racist. As I have stated before, I have had darker skinned professors and roommates, and they were very intelligent.

 

As for John Mccaine, he has both honor and conscience, which are qualities Trump and his minions think are for suckers and losers.  But go ahead and keep blaming the victim.  As for thinking he should have chosen to not be a prisoner of war, our leaders should have chosen not to get into that war.  It was a mess created by the French, after all.

[TomKalbfus]

Did it occur to you that many "black" people are not given the same educational opportunities as their "white" counterparts, and therefore athletics is one of the few areas open to them for success?  

 

As for hiring, if you have an instance where you have two equally qualified individuals, and you choose the "white" person, that is racism.  Without affirmative action, you would see more "black" people denied jobs and promotions.  If you have to spend time trying to disqualify the "black" person, then you are being racist. As I have stated before, I have had darker skinned professors and roommates, and they were very intelligent.

 

As for John Mccaine, he has both honor and conscience, which are qualities Trump and his minions think are for suckers and losers.  But go ahead and keep blaming the victim.  As for thinking he should have chosen to not be a prisoner of war, our leaders should have chosen not to get into that war.  It was a mess created by the French, after all.

There is a requirement for all college athletes that they must take classes in a specific degree and maintain a certain grade point average in order to play for college sports, that is their educational opportunity. Very few college athletes advance to professional level sports, so that degree they pursue in order to play for a college can come in handy, if their athletic career doesn't work out. Also the government guarantees student loans and they are available to minority students including blacks. Blacks have received public education from kindergarten to 12th grade just like whites do, don't tell me they don't receive the same educational opportunities we do! if you think there is something lacking in public education, well Obama canceled public funding for charter schools was opposed to vouchers for private schools so blacks can go there. Unlike recent immigrants, black Americans have been free American citizens for 150 years, about 50 years ago the schools were desegregated, so blacks are running out of excuses for being poor, they keep on blaming white racism rather than doing something concrete to improve their situation. Our schools teach them to hate American, it teaches them all about slavery, and about how unfair and racist America is, without mentioning the progress we made, so its no wonder they may feel its alright to go rob a store, because our public education system has taught them that life is so unfair to black people. Black people give up trying to earn an honest living and end up in jail trying to earn a dishonest one. I think if a black feels he has to be a crook to make ends meat, he might as well move to Africa, where he doesn't have the White Man to blame for all his problems.

 

"As for hiring, if you have an instance where you have two equally qualified individuals, and you choose the "white" person, that is racism.  Without affirmative action, you would see more "black" people denied jobs and promotions.  If you have to spend time trying to disqualify the "black" person, then you are being racist. As I have stated before, I have had darker skinned professors and roommates, and they were very intelligent."

 

How do you know two people are equally qualified? That judgement is highly subjective, who gets to decide who is qualified and who is not? Does the Government? Does the Government therefore get to make all hiring decisions for you? I think the people who are running the business can make the best hiring decisions not the government, because the business' survival depends on making the right decision. I think blacks just have to assume that some employers are going to be racist and just keep on looking a little harder until the find a job. All the people who give up on looking for work and decide to rob stores make it harder for other blacks to find legitimate jobs, because the employer is afraid of the candidates, especially males. I didn't say blacks weren't intelligent, their problem is social and behavioral, if people go into a black neighborhood, there is a certain wariness about being robbed or a victim of some crime. There has been a number of shootings in black neighborhoods, blacks carry that reputation with them when they go to seek employment, that is not my fault, I am just pointing it out. Black women have an easier time finding a job, because they are viewed by employers as less dangerous, as it is males who usually commit most of the crimes in black neighborhoods. I repeat, I never said black people were stupid, they just work under certain handicaps when seeking work, basically that reputation created by other blacks committing crimes which they have to overcome.

 

Asians on the other hand do well in school, Asians are rules followers, they tend to obey laws, and do well in college tests achieving high grades, the expectation level for Asians is often higher than for whites. The problem Asians have in society is they tend to follow the rules too much, even when they are wrong. So long as they have a good set of rules to follow, they tend to do well. the Chinese are probably more civilized than most white people, they are more hierarchical, they tend to respect their elders and their families, they expect their children to be obedient and they usually are. Crime rates in Japan are usually lower than in the United States, but when their government is bad and doing immoral things, then Asians tend to obey that too, they follow orders that may be wrong or morally repugnant, because they suppress their individuality in favor of authority. Japanese have sacrificed their lives for honor and for their Emperor during World War II, often in suicide attacks by crashing airplanes into American ships and so forth. Most Japanese don't have problems getting an education and getting that first job, most Japanese don't have a lot of relative that are in jail. Different races have different behavioral tendencies, you can choose to ignore that, but the facts are still there, even if you are not comfortable with them.

[Maine farmer]

There is a requirement for all college athletes that they must take classes in a specific degree and maintain a certain grade point average in order to play for college sports, that is their educational opportunity. Very few college athletes advance to professional level sports, so that degree they pursue in order to play for a college can come in handy, if their athletic career doesn't work out. Also the government guarantees student loans and they are available to minority students including blacks. Blacks have received public education from kindergarten to 12th grade just like whites do, don't tell me they don't receive the same educational opportunities we do!

If not for Affirmative action, they likely would be denied what they do get.  As for college athletes, I lived on the same floor as a lot of football players, most of whom were "white", and let me tell you, they were mostly not getting the same education as the rest of us.  The vast majority  of the football players I knew were phys-ed majors, not exactly the fast track for a high paying career.  I knew one football player who was an engineering major.    

 

 if you think there is something lacking in public education, well Obama canceled public funding for charter schools was opposed to vouchers for private schools so blacks can go there. 

I'm no fan of Obama, I agree with that particular assessment.

 

 All the people who give up on looking for work and decide to rob stores make it harder for other blacks to find legitimate jobs, because the employer is afraid of the candidates, especially males. I didn't say blacks weren't intelligent, their problem is social and behavioral, if people go into a black neighborhood, there is a certain wariness about being robbed or a victim of some crime. There has been a number of shootings in black neighborhoods, blacks carry that reputation with them when they go to seek employment, that is not my fault, I am just pointing it out. Black women have an easier time finding a job, because they are viewed by employers as less dangerous, as it is males who usually commit most of the crimes in black neighborhoods. I repeat, I never said black people were stupid, they just work under certain handicaps when seeking work, basically that reputation created by other blacks committing crimes which they have to overcome.

 

Where I live, there are a whole lot of white skinned people who fit this description, yet somehow the ones without white skin face harsher sentencing for the same crimes.  Of all of the African Americans that I have known in my life, none of them were threatening.

[TomKalbfus]

If not for Affirmative action, they likely would be denied what they do get.  As for college athletes, I lived on the same floor as a lot of football players, most of whom were "white", and let me tell you, they were mostly not getting the same education as the rest of us.  The vast majority  of the football players I knew were phys-ed majors, not exactly the fast track for a high paying career.  I knew one football player who was an engineering major.    

 

I'm no fan of Obama, I agree with that particular assessment.

 

 

Where I live, there are a whole lot of white skinned people who fit this description, yet somehow the ones without white skin face harsher sentencing for the same crimes.  Of all of the African Americans that I have known in my life, none of them were threatening.

"If not for Affirmative action, they likely would be denied what they do get.  As for college athletes, I lived on the same floor as a lot of football players, most of whom were "white", and let me tell you, they were mostly not getting the same education as the rest of us.  The vast majority  of the football players I knew were phys-ed majors, not exactly the fast track for a high paying career.  I knew one football player who was an engineering major. "

 

You know, if it is that bad, and they need Affirmative action to get a job, then they should go to Africa and seek a job there, that way, they can't blame white on black racism as the reason they can't find a job, because there, blacks are in the majority and whites are in the minority. Now I'll tell you, white people in Africa usually can find a job, they don't need Affirmative Action to find a job there. Its been 152 years since the end of slavery, 50 of those years have bee my entire life, if after that time, blacks are still suffering from the after effects of their ancestors having been slaves, then the problem is theirs not ours! We are living in a country that elected its first black president, I did not like him, but we still elected him! If we have enough people, some of whom would have to be white to elect our first black president, that means that Affirmative Action is obsolete, our society does not need it any more, if it ever did! If a Black Man can get a job in the White House as President of the United States, and another black man can get a job without Affirmative Action. We are in a whole new era, if blacks can't get a job, that is probably because they aren't trying hard enough and are using racism as an excuse not to try.

 

"Where I live, there are a whole lot of white skinned people who fit this description, yet somehow the ones without white skin face harsher sentencing for the same crimes.  Of all of the African Americans that I have known in my life, none of them were threatening."

 

Then that is some weird neighborhood, where I live, most whites are law abiding citizens. Sounds like you are living in the Movie called "White Man's Burden" It was a movie produced some time ago about an alternate universe where white people were the disadvantaged minority, and black people were middle class and prosperous. This movie got me to thinking. Suppose Columbus was a black African and he discovered the New World? What sort of Africa would he have to have come from for this history to happen? Was there a black equivalent of the Mayflower sailing from Africa to land in Massachusetts? Now imagine black African slave traders taking Europeans as slaves in chains and shipping them to the New World to pick Cotton and Tobacco. Does this make any sense? How primitive would Europe have had to have been for this to have happened? I have trouble imagining such a World, why do you suppose that is? I give you a few ideas.

 

1) Africa was an obstacle to sail around when the Turks seized Constantinople and closed the trade route to India for Europeans. Now if Columbus was a black African, he would have had no reason to sail west to find a short cut to the East Indies. If Africa was as Advanced as Europe was in our 1400s, it would have been divided up into a number of kingdoms, Africa would be well mapped while Europe would mostly be Terra Incognita. Africans with ocean going sailing ships would not have to travel through Turkey or the Middle East to get to India, so they would have had no reason to sail west and discover America, so there would have been no black Christopher Columbus.

 

2) Africans would be used to a warm Tropical Climate, why would they sail north to where it snows and freeze to death in Massachusetts?

 

3) Africans can grow cotton and Tobacco in Africa, there is no need to travel to the New World and acquire white slaves to grow that stuff.

 

Tell me what you think?

 

Why do you think black people have these problems? Dragging them over here more 250 years ago didn't cause this. Modern day Africa is a mess too! No white men caused that. Why do you suppose that Africa is full of Third World countries, it is a continent rich in natural resources, precious metals, and diamonds, mineral wise at least Africa is not poor, but why are the people in it so poor? Europe decolonized it about 50 years ago, so we no longer have European colonialism to blame, and I think if anything the Europeans helped and not hurt the people of Africa. One has to ask, why was Africa s easy for Europe to colonize in the first place? Africa is after all the original and oldest home of humanity, humans have lived on this continent the longest. Yes I believe in Evolution. What say you, why does Africa have such problems? It is not because we took slaves from the place.

[TomKalbfus]

You're really going to hang your argument on "not standing for the anthem is exactly the same thing as pledging allegiance to a murderer of 6 million Jews?"

 

Wow. That's really grasping at straws.

 

I know you probably don't live in a place with many Jews, but please do go ahead and find one ask them if "kneeling during the anthem is as bad as giving the Seig Heil salute in a synagogue."

 

You might want to wear a helmet when you do that though.

 

I don't know whether you noticed this or not, but they're not burning the flag. And don't take some lefty source as confirmation of it, just go to Antonin Scalia to find out that even right-wing conservatives agree that that's protected:

 

Ergo, even if they were burning the flag, they'd be exercising their right to free speech. And yet here we have the President breaking a half dozen specific laws as well as the First Amendment, calling for them to be fired.

 

And similarly to the Nazi salute, calling kneeling the "same as" flag burning is seriously over the top. You'd have to be a real snowflake to get worked up about it.

 

And that's exactly the point. As the article I linked notes, kneeling was chosen specifically to show honor, and as noted by many others, it also had the specific benefit have having no prior symbolism in history thus separating it from negative connotations of flag burning.

 

So the bottom line is, saying "they should know it would trigger a bunch of right wing bigots" is actually kind of the point: the only folks who are offended here are reduced to grasping at straws for why it's so offensive precisely because they don't like the real message which is about calling attention to black and brown people being killed by police in numbers far out of proportion to their percentage of the population.

 

 

Ah the good old "evoke MLK as agreeing with me" trope.

 

Since your knowledge of the civil rights movement is so incredibly deficient, you should know that calling what MLK did "trying to persuade people who were racist not to be racist" is literal "whitewashing." If what he did was just 'persuading" how come he spent so much time in jail? And guess what? A lot of the animosity toward him was that he *did* use the American flag as a symbol against racism, making the point that the laws of the country and the Constitution guaranteed civil rights, and that the racists were the ones corrupting the symbolism of the flag. 

 

That's not "persuading" dear. That's called "shaming." It royally pissed them off. It didn't convince them, it made them go back into their holes so they couldn't recruit except among sociopaths and narcissists that dominate the White Power movement today. 

 

 

 

So, to be clear, no one is saying that. That's what you call a "Straw Man."

 

Racists are going to be racist, and there's no convincing them. Just like there's no convincing you.

 

What they are doing is exactly what Martin Luther King did: protest visibly to get people who are just not thinking about it because it doesn't directly affect them to realize there's a problem, and people who are good citizens will join the cause to fix the problems in society.

 

If there was no need for such a thing, we wouldn't need the First Amendment, would we? 

 

But there is a need, and THAT is what our veterans fought for and died for, not some silly manufactured indignation about "kneeling being equivalent to hating America."

 

And finally, to be clear about how your whole argument is being perceived by African Americans and other people of color, there's this very popular t-shirt to explain it in the simplest of terms:

 

 

What the hell do you want them to do, given you won't listen ever because you think it's all Fake News?

 

 

 

The funny thing about this particular sentence is that it kind of sums up how you--and most of the remaining Trump supporters--feel about symbols: they're basically all there is to the world for you. If you looked at what is actually happening for 30 seconds, your heads might explode.

 

I hate to try to disabuse you of this notion, but again you're straw-manning what the Democrats--and now a growing segment of Republicans--are doing now to try to contain the damage being done by the Trump administration as somehow being obsessed with "the 2016 election." Dude, we know the election's over, Mueller's going to get to tell us what the heck happened, and while you'll never read it, Hillary's book is a pretty devastating self-examination of "What Happened."

 

No dear, what we're obsessed with is losing our insurance, signing over world trade dominance to the EU and the Chinese, and going to war with North Korea and Iran.

 

It's obvious you think all those things are Fake News that is only due to the idea that "The Media has gradually over time turned into a Soviet Style propaganda Machine."

 

All I can say is, you really ought to come out of your information bubble, but please do go ahead and stay there and away from the rest of us in the real world.

 

 

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity, :phones:

Buffy

 

 

Actually there are quite a few Jews living near where I live, I live in Connecticut after all, some of those people are my friends, and I have some relatives who are Jews, just like Donald Trump does. The point is giving the Nazi salute is not the same as killing six million Jews, it is a gesture that may remind Jews of the Holocaust, but it is not the Holocaust itself, but what it does is offend people, just as what those football players did offended lots of Americans. You can't ask Americans to understand that any more than you can ask a bunch of Jews not to be offended by a Nazi salute.

 

"I don't know whether you noticed this or not, but they're not burning the flag. And don't take some lefty source as confirmation of it, just go to Antonin Scalia to find out that even right-wing conservatives agree that that's protected:"

 

So is a player giving the football fans the "middle finger", that is free speech protected by the Constitution, but the Constitution doesn't force people to watch such an event, and the Constitution doesn't prevent the football player's employer from firing him. Freedom is speech isn't freedom from consequences. Donald Trump never threatened to arrest those football players, that is what the Constitution prevents the government from doing for that. The government does not get to arrest those football players for disrespecting the flag, but that doesn't mean they get to keep their job either! You offend the customers, the management can fire its employees for harming his business, the Constitution doesn't prevent that!

 

"And similarly to the Nazi salute, calling kneeling the "same as" flag burning is seriously over the top. You'd have to be a real snowflake to get worked up about it."

 

No one dies if you give them the Nazi salute any more that if you knee instead of stand while the National Anthem is being player, both are examples of protected free speech, but you don't have to like it or even watch it! The Nazis did some terrible things, but giving the Nazi Salute is not doing those terrible things, just like flying the Soviet Flag above your porch is not killing 20 million people! Flags and Salutes are symbols, not crimes against humanity, it offends people yes, but it does not hurt them!

 

"And that's exactly the point. As the article I linked notes, kneeling was chosen specifically to show honor, and as noted by many others, it also had the specific benefit have having no prior symbolism in history thus separating it from negative connotations of flag burning."

 

If the people watching don't know that what good is it as a means to fight racism? Is the country any less racist after they did it? If no, then why do it, they just gave the American People the "middle finger" by doing that, that is not solving racism. If they were a bunch of racists, they wouldn't spend their time watching a bunch of mostly black football players crashing into one another and tackling each other for possession of the ball on a football field. The true racists are elsewhere watching other events. I'll bet you that David Duke probably smiled when he heard about it, that is just the think he wants to recruit new members into the Klu Klux Klan!

 

"The funny thing about this particular sentence is that it kind of sums up how you--and most of the remaining Trump supporters--feel about symbols: they're basically all there is to the world for you. If you looked at what is actually happening for 30 seconds, your heads might explode."

 

These letters you wrote this sentence with are symbols, they do mean something as does the flag!

 

"I hate to try to disabuse you of this notion, but again you're straw-manning what the Democrats--and now a growing segment of Republicans--are doing now to try to contain the damage being done by the Trump administration as somehow being obsessed with "the 2016 election." Dude, we know the election's over, Mueller's going to get to tell us what the heck happened, and while you'll never read it, Hillary's book is a pretty devastating self-examination of "What Happened.""

 

It may be hard for you to believe, but most Americans don't care who is in the White House, so long as they are getting their paycheck and are able to pay their bill, they probably wouldn't even care if the Russians helped Trump to get elected so long as Trump does a good job with the economy, because that is what affects them the most. You care a lot because you are a political junkie, most people aren't that, they care about being able to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads, this minutia which the media concentrates on does not interest them, they care about the big picture, not legal mumbo jumbo or legislative maneuverings. Most don't care about who has a job in Washington, just so long as that job gets done and is done well. The economy has grown at 3% for most of this year, more than it ever has under Obama! Hillary's book is a sore loser diatribe, nothing more than that! I wouldn't feel so sorry for Hillary after all, she has had more than her 15 minutes of fame, she is married to an ex-president, and he has a pension, and of course access to money from the Clinton Foundation to pay herself with for doing charitable work!

[Buffy]

Actually there are quite a few Jews living near where I live, I live in Connecticut after all, some of those people are my friends, and I have some relatives who are Jews, just like Donald Trump does. The point is giving the Nazi salute is not the same as killing six million Jews, it is a gesture that may remind Jews of the Holocaust, but it is not the Holocaust itself, but what it does is offend people, just as what those football players did offended lots of Americans. You can't ask Americans to understand that any more than you can ask a bunch of Jews not to be offended by a Nazi salute.

You apparently were unable to comprehend that what I was discussing relative differences in gestures and actions.

 

You obviously did not take up my challenge to go ask your "many" Jewish friends if a Nazi salute is the same as NFL players taking a knee.

 

You clearly have no ability to comprehend the idea that "taking a knee" was chosen precisely because it had no historical relevance: no one could possibly tie it to well-known, symbols of past conflict, let alone horrific acts of death and destruction.

 

Given this, I can see that we're not going to get anywhere in arguing about this, so I'm going to stick to simply calling out your falsehoods for those who come by this thread.

 

To be clear: I don't think it's possible to change your mind about any of this, and I'm not going to try. I am just going to call you a liar as appropriate.

 

Sorry, that's my job around here.

 

"I don't know whether you noticed this or not, but they're not burning the flag. And don't take some lefty source as confirmation of it, just go to Antonin Scalia to find out that even right-wing conservatives agree that that's protected:"

 

So is a player giving the football fans the "middle finger", that is free speech protected by the Constitution, but the Constitution doesn't force people to watch such an event, and the Constitution doesn't prevent the football player's employer from firing him. Freedom is speech isn't freedom from consequences. Donald Trump never threatened to arrest those football players, that is what the Constitution prevents the government from doing for that. The government does not get to arrest those football players for disrespecting the flag, but that doesn't mean they get to keep their job either! You offend the customers, the management can fire its employees for harming his business, the Constitution doesn't prevent that!

You may be unaware of the fact that "arrest" is not the only thing that the government is prevented from doing by the First Amendment and the rest of the constitution. Sure the NFL could fire them on it's own, but Trump *telling the owners to fire them* is indeed a violation of the First Amendment, and several dozen statutes as well.

 

Now as it turns out, thanks to the Player's Union contract, the NFL owners can't fire them very easily either. Colin Kaepernick ran afoul of his contract not being renewed. You don't know this being in Connecticut, but the York family has gone through hell in publicity in the Bay Area, and attendance has been way down.

 

So you're absolutely right that private parties may pay for the consequences of their actions. That's something I remind people around here about all the time.

 

 

"And similarly to the Nazi salute, calling kneeling the "same as" flag burning is seriously over the top. You'd have to be a real snowflake to get worked up about it."

 

No one dies if you give them the Nazi salute any more that if you knee instead of stand while the National Anthem is being player, both are examples of protected free speech, but you don't have to like it or even watch it! The Nazis did some terrible things, but giving the Nazi Salute is not doing those terrible things, just like flying the Soviet Flag above your porch is not killing 20 million people! Flags and Salutes are symbols, not crimes against humanity, it offends people yes, but it does not hurt them!

Sounds like someone is trying to justify Nazi salutes here!

 

 

"And that's exactly the point. As the article I linked notes, kneeling was chosen specifically to show honor, and as noted by many others, it also had the specific benefit have having no prior symbolism in history thus separating it from negative connotations of flag burning."

 

If the people watching don't know that what good is it as a means to fight racism? Is the country any less racist after they did it? If no, then why do it, they just gave the American People the "middle finger" by doing that, that is not solving racism. If they were a bunch of racists, they wouldn't spend their time watching a bunch of mostly black football players crashing into one another and tackling each other for possession of the ball on a football field. The true racists are elsewhere watching other events. I'll bet you that David Duke probably smiled when he heard about it, that is just the think he wants to recruit new members into the Klu Klux Klan!

"No one's going to understand what they're protesting, and it won't stop racism, so why bother?"

 

I know you don't hear anything but this line on Fox News, and since you're probably boycotting NFL games you probably haven't noticed that the protest has spread like wildfire, but this has in fact sparked exactly the discussions it was intended to.

 

Of course the racists are all focused on making it about "hating America," but as I said several times--and which you've obviously decided to ignore because it's so detrimental to your argument--getting racists to not be racist was never the goal. And while the non-racist people may have been distracted by the very loud screams of people like you that it's all about being Un-American or even about hating our duly-elected President, the message has gone through.

 

Martin Luther King was out marching the streets for years before people started listening. The fact that a few are confused right now because of the disinformation that people like you are desperately trying to spread is more of a minor annoyance. 

 

You all are a perfect example of Spiro Agnew's famous phrase, "nattering nabobs of negativism."

 

You're an a minor speed bump. And you're losing too.

 

 

 

"The funny thing about this particular sentence is that it kind of sums up how you--and most of the remaining Trump supporters--feel about symbols: they're basically all there is to the world for you. If you looked at what is actually happening for 30 seconds, your heads might explode."

 

These letters you wrote this sentence with are symbols, they do mean something as does the flag!

 

Why, yes! Yes they do! It's sad you can't perceive the actual meaning of them! You completely missed my point! I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

 

"I hate to try to disabuse you of this notion, but again you're straw-manning what the Democrats--and now a growing segment of Republicans--are doing now to try to contain the damage being done by the Trump administration as somehow being obsessed with "the 2016 election." Dude, we know the election's over, Mueller's going to get to tell us what the heck happened, and while you'll never read it, Hillary's book is a pretty devastating self-examination of "What Happened.""

 

It may be hard for you to believe, but most Americans don't care who is in the White House, so long as they are getting their paycheck and are able to pay their bill, they probably wouldn't even care if the Russians helped Trump to get elected so long as Trump does a good job with the economy, because that is what affects them the most. You care a lot because you are a political junkie, most people aren't that, they care about being able to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads, this minutia which the media concentrates on does not interest them, they care about the big picture, not legal mumbo jumbo or legislative maneuverings. Most don't care about who has a job in Washington, just so long as that job gets done and is done well. The economy has grown at 3% for most of this year, more than it ever has under Obama! Hillary's book is a sore loser diatribe, nothing more than that! I wouldn't feel so sorry for Hillary after all, she has had more than her 15 minutes of fame, she is married to an ex-president, and he has a pension, and of course access to money from the Clinton Foundation to pay herself with for doing charitable work!

HAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha!

 

Actually, you're kind of right. They don't care who's in the White House specifically, mostly because our entire two-party democratic form of government pretty much ensures that the person who gets there is a compromise, that a majority has decided is "good enough," but definitely true that even that majority doesn't think they're perfect.

 

Oh there are fringe types who are into hero worship, and one of the tiredest tropes is to say that everyone who voted for X is a fanatic who will agree with everything X does or says. There certainly are those people, but they're mostly to be ignored.

 

Now conversely, when you're talking to one of these fanatics, you will find them saying all kinds of crazy stuff to justify the unjustifiable. And we do have a large number of those fanatics even in congress right now. So when you say most people "wouldn't even care if the Russians helped Trump to get elected" you're getting out into non-reality dear. Only the fanatics "don't care." The sane folks in the Republican party are scared shitless about this, precisely because they can see that Putin's intent isn't to favor the Republicans because they're better, but literally to tear down the country. Lots of people are predicting that if Trump stops doing their bidding--which he's been trying his best to do, never every criticizing them, trying to get their embassies back, and lifting the embargo all of these being stopped by the Republican-controlled congress and the generals running the intelligence services--then in 2018 we might well see Putin turning his bot army to supporting the Democrats, just to keep the US destabilized.

 

Anyone who's not worried about that actually is kinda un-American. I've only been able to find a few who are not, just that quite a few of them just can't believe that what's coming out in the Russian investigation is actually true, and that Trump may be an idiot, but he's not colluding with the Russians.

 

Mueller will let us know what he finds. The facts aren't out yet.

 

Some folks will just focus on their symbols and pretend anything negative said about Trump must be Fake News, because he's some kind of messiah. The Stormfront people don't even believe he is, but they sure like that he defends their use of the Nazi salute though!

 

So to sum up, certainly those Nazi Salutes are "only symbols" and while offensive, it's free speech. But only the cluelessly symbol-obsessed will insist that that's the only thing worth noting, while those who might be offended by the salutes are much more worried about the actual intent behind them, and for that you only need to listen to their chants....

 

 

Jews will not replace us, :phones:

Buffy

 

[Maine farmer]

"If not for Affirmative action, they likely would be denied what they do get.  As for college athletes, I lived on the same floor as a lot of football players, most of whom were "white", and let me tell you, they were mostly not getting the same education as the rest of us.  The vast majority  of the football players I knew were phys-ed majors, not exactly the fast track for a high paying career.  I knew one football player who was an engineering major. "

 

You know, if it is that bad, and they need Affirmative action to get a job, then they should go to Africa and seek a job there, that way, they can't blame white on black racism as the reason they can't find a job, because there, blacks are in the majority and whites are in the minority. Now I'll tell you, white people in Africa usually can find a job, they don't need Affirmative Action to find a job there. Its been 152 years since the end of slavery, 50 of those years have bee my entire life, if after that time, blacks are still suffering from the after effects of their ancestors having been slaves, then the problem is theirs not ours! We are living in a country that elected its first black president, I did not like him, but we still elected him! If we have enough people, some of whom would have to be white to elect our first black president, that means that Affirmative Action is obsolete, our society does not need it any more, if it ever did! If a Black Man can get a job in the White House as President of the United States, and another black man can get a job without Affirmative Action. We are in a whole new era, if blacks can't get a job, that is probably because they aren't trying hard enough and are using racism as an excuse not to try.

 

"Where I live, there are a whole lot of white skinned people who fit this description, yet somehow the ones without white skin face harsher sentencing for the same crimes.  Of all of the African Americans that I have known in my life, none of them were threatening."

 

Then that is some weird neighborhood, where I live, most whites are law abiding citizens. Sounds like you are living in the Movie called "White Man's Burden" It was a movie produced some time ago about an alternate universe where white people were the disadvantaged minority, and black people were middle class and prosperous. This movie got me to thinking. Suppose Columbus was a black African and he discovered the New World? What sort of Africa would he have to have come from for this history to happen? Was there a black equivalent of the Mayflower sailing from Africa to land in Massachusetts? Now imagine black African slave traders taking Europeans as slaves in chains and shipping them to the New World to pick Cotton and Tobacco. Does this make any sense? How primitive would Europe have had to have been for this to have happened? I have trouble imagining such a World, why do you suppose that is? I give you a few ideas.

 

1) Africa was an obstacle to sail around when the Turks seized Constantinople and closed the trade route to India for Europeans. Now if Columbus was a black African, he would have had no reason to sail west to find a short cut to the East Indies. If Africa was as Advanced as Europe was in our 1400s, it would have been divided up into a number of kingdoms, Africa would be well mapped while Europe would mostly be Terra Incognita. Africans with ocean going sailing ships would not have to travel through Turkey or the Middle East to get to India, so they would have had no reason to sail west and discover America, so there would have been no black Christopher Columbus.

 

2) Africans would be used to a warm Tropical Climate, why would they sail north to where it snows and freeze to death in Massachusetts?

 

3) Africans can grow cotton and Tobacco in Africa, there is no need to travel to the New World and acquire white slaves to grow that stuff.

 

Tell me what you think?

 

Why do you think black people have these problems? Dragging them over here more 250 years ago didn't cause this. Modern day Africa is a mess too! No white men caused that. Why do you suppose that Africa is full of Third World countries, it is a continent rich in natural resources, precious metals, and diamonds, mineral wise at least Africa is not poor, but why are the people in it so poor? Europe decolonized it about 50 years ago, so we no longer have European colonialism to blame, and I think if anything the Europeans helped and not hurt the people of Africa. One has to ask, why was Africa s easy for Europe to colonize in the first place? Africa is after all the original and oldest home of humanity, humans have lived on this continent the longest. Yes I believe in Evolution. What say you, why does Africa have such problems? It is not because we took slaves from the place.

Well, you have certainly put forth a convincing argument, and I have to say that I am sold more than ever that we still need Affirmative Action.  That you and so many like you hold racial stereotypes as truth, and would always choose to hire the white skinned job applicant clearly demonstrates that the African American's are being discriminated based on the color of their skin.  I was once opposed to Affirmative Action, and then more and more I found myself hearing white people making all sorts of claims about the "blacks" similar to yours.  Then I spoke with a retired policeman who told me about arresting people for drugs and how the blacks always go a harsher sentence and how the white kids often were released without charges because the higher - ups didn't want to see the kids life ruined by a drug charge.  Where is the justice in those cases?

 

As for African culture vs European, well the Europeans were constantly at war with each other and greedily trying to build empires.  The Africans were living off the land and not trying to get wealthy.  That does not make their culture inferior.  We can't know what Africa would be like today if it had been left alone, since the Europeans went about carving it up and drawing lines on a map.

 

As for my neighborhood, there are few non whites, so virtually all of the crime and violence is white.  The unemployed are white, the subsidized housing is populated by almost exclusively white people.  

[TomKalbfus]

Well, you have certainly put forth a convincing argument, and I have to say that I am sold more than ever that we still need Affirmative Action.  That you and so many like you hold racial stereotypes as truth, and would always choose to hire the white skinned job applicant clearly demonstrates that the African American's are being discriminated based on the color of their skin.  I was once opposed to Affirmative Action, and then more and more I found myself hearing white people making all sorts of claims about the "blacks" similar to yours.  Then I spoke with a retired policeman who told me about arresting people for drugs and how the blacks always go a harsher sentence and how the white kids often were released without charges because the higher - ups didn't want to see the kids life ruined by a drug charge.  Where is the justice in those cases?

 

As for African culture vs European, well the Europeans were constantly at war with each other and greedily trying to build empires.  The Africans were living off the land and not trying to get wealthy.  That does not make their culture inferior.  We can't know what Africa would be like today if it had been left alone, since the Europeans went about carving it up and drawing lines on a map.

 

As for my neighborhood, there are few non whites, so virtually all of the crime and violence is white.  The unemployed are white, the subsidized housing is populated by almost exclusively white people.  

Has Affirmative Action ever solved any problems? If we made up those racial stereotypes, then how come the racial stereotypes for Asians is the opposite of those for blacks? Why can't we say that a Asians are big hulking brutes that are always getting into trouble, committing crimes and getting arrested, and make that stick? Maybe because those Stereotypes don't come from us, but from them, from their behavior, we observe that behavior and develop those stereotypes from what we see. Not everyone adheres to those stereotypes, but the stereotypes come from observations of typical situations we find them in and how they behave. Also since you live in a neighborhood with very few blacks, you can afford to be intentionally clueless if you never set foot in a black neighborhood, you can hold enlightened liberal values about how all the races are equal and there is not a difference between them other than skin color and facial features. A few black faces in a mostly white crowd doesn't disturb that image, and you can speculate that the reporters that report the local news and shows all the black faces of suspects and arrested criminals, must somehow be racist for taking those pictures of so many black men, and not putting in enough white faces to balance out the picture and make it representative of the population as a whole.

 

Affirmative Action hasn't solved any problems, because if it had, we wouldn't need it anymore. If after 50 years of having it and we still need it, then their case is hopeless. We elected a black president, a point that you have ignored, in a country where we've elected a black president, we don't need Affirmative Action and black people who still have problems with their race after that, can't be helped by it. All Affirmative Action does is force Employers to find a few black faces they can hire to stay within the law, blacks are still ending up in prison in spite of this, so I would argue it is not working. Also why can't you explain why Asians don't have the same racial stereotype as blacks. the racial stereotype Asians "suffer" under helps them get into college, it helps them find a job, people tend to assume they are often smarter than they often are, and they sometimes complain about that, but it also gives them an opportunity to prove just how smart they are, because often it is true. So tell me Why don't Asians need Affirmative Action in this country?