9/11/2017

[OceanBreeze]

Nobility has nothing to do with forgiveness.  I forgive for my own peace of mind, and I care not if the forgiveness is wanted.  

 

I am a calm man, almost extremely so, but I am not unguarded to threats.  Threats also come in non - Islamic jihadist forms.  I find myself in agreement with the teachings of Socrates, that when you wrongly judge others, you do more harm to yourself than to those you judge, so I choose to reserve my judgement.  

 

That is not to say that I have not knocked my share of bullies onto their backsides, but I did so without malice.  The offensive actions have to be stopped before they can be forgiven, after all.

 

Passing judgement on the jihadists as murderous scoundrels is not the same as passing judgement on all followers of Islam.

[exchemist]

Empire building is just another trait that we inherited from you guys in Europe.

 

More seriously, at the time of 9/11 there was not much evidence of American hegemony in the Middle East. Iraq was ruled by a dictator, Iran by an Ayatollah (Supreme Islamic leader) and the Taliban were in control of Afghanistan. Most of the other ME countries (other than Israel) were ruled by some form of royalty. Israel was the only democratic country in the ME  (and still is)

 

Of course, there was a great deal of American involvement in the oil industry, but companies like Aramco were pikers compared to the like of the British East India Company.

 

 

 

So, it seems it comes down to American support of Israel as the prime motivation for 9/11.

In Bin Laden’s own words:

 

"The expansion of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its price, and pay for it heavily"

 

 I don’t really buy the argument that the USA was exerting dominance and that is what led to 9/11. It was the creation, and continued support of, the Israeli state, which America certainly played no small part in, but not the only player, that was behind the attacks, in my opinion.

 

I would argue that it is the jihadists are the ones who want to exert dominance and dream of the return of a grand caliphate to rule over the entire world.

 

If you have a choice, what system would you prefer to be governed by? And that is not an idle question; it just may be the reality that we are all facing and something to think about.

You are right in many ways about this I am sure.

 

However what is easily overlooked is American cultural dominance, largely via Hollywood, TV and advertising, I imagine. This creates resentments in surprising places, in France certainly and even the UK. I think the Arab world has struggled with it even more so, however. It's hard to keep in mind that a lot of the people in Saudi Arabia for instance were Bedouin living in the Middle Ages only 2 generations ago! The culture shock of oil wealth and the resulting exposure to "The West", with all its temptations (booze, semi-naked women, and so on) has been profound for them. This is not in any way to defend the indefensible but merely to try to understand the dynamics. I do think the US has taken a wrong turn by isolating Iran and cosying up to Saudi Arabia however. It is Wahhabism that has led to Daech and Bin Laden, not Iran. I think Obama was shrewd in inviting Iran to come in from the cold, as they present a rival to KSA and can allow the West to exert more pressure on KSA to stop using their wealth to export this repressive strain of Islam.  

 

I also think - and this is no doubt more contentious to American readers - that the USA should draw back from its level of almost unquestioning support for Israel. There is no doubt that Israel is the biggest grievance by far in the Arab world. I think it would do the world a lot of good if the Israelis were forced to attempt some serious diplomacy with their neighbours. At present they scarcely bother. I don't know if you have come across Walt & Mearsheimer's book "the Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy" but if not I recommend it. It seems to me to make a number of powerful points.

 

(Our new friend will doubtless claim it is "antisemitic", but that's bullshit.)

Edited September 11, 2017 by exchemist

[sanctus]

That is one of the reasons I think solving the conflict in Palestina has to be a priority, because it is used for indoctrination leading to extremism. I would bet a lot that coming to a solution both sides agree on, would immediatly reduce the terrorism threat substantially in the West.

[DrKrettin]

 

If you have a choice, what system would you prefer to be governed by? And that is not an idle question; it just may be the reality that we are all facing and something to think about.

 

exchemist has anticipated me in saying it is probably the cultural dominance which many see as offensive. As a method of government, I would like to see a secular democracy in which politicians do not impose their sickening moral restrictions derived from insane religious convictions on others. I refer not only to Islamic states, but also the mindless fundamentalist politicians in the USA.

 

The Arab world is doubtless resentful about the State of Israel and about the support by the USA, no doubt driven by the Jewish lobby there. Although I support the idea of the creation of Israel, that country's treatment of  Palestinians is to my mind as bad as the  regime which persecuted Jews in Europe during and before WWII, and thus hypocritical in the extreme. They think they can behave as they like because of unquestioning support from the USA, and I find disgusting. This is a political opinion, by the way, not a racial one (and Israel always plays the race card when their political behaviour is questioned). 

[exchemist]

That is one of the reasons I think solving the conflict in Palestina has to be a priority, because it is used for indoctrination leading to extremism. I would bet a lot that coming to a solution both sides agree on, would immediatly reduce the terrorism threat substantially in the West.

Undoubtedly. And that is one reason the Israel Lobby works so hard to prevent that realisation from surfacing in the USA. So instead they promote this apocalyptic notion of a global caliphate (which has absolutely zero chance of happening) and this pernicious notion of a "clash of civilisations", thereby creating distrust, fear and even hatred of muslims in general.

 

And it's fertile ground, since the USA is not used to terrorism and understandably got badly shaken up by the Al Qa'ida attacks. In Europe it is seen in less apocalyptic terms, partly because terrorism is nothing new to us : IRA, Baader Meinhof, ETA, and so forth have always been with us. Also we have a lot more muslims, so we just know that yer average Bradford bus driver does not dream of a global caliphate and would be as appalled at the idea as we are. But of course the security services work like crazy on muslim terrorism at the moment, because that is the terrorist flavour of the month. European Interior ministries likewise devote a lot of time to how to get the muslim communities talking to the police, how to stop muslim youth from getting radicalised and so on. (Every time a teacher at my son's school grows a beard, he gets joshed about being "radicalised"). 

 

On which subject, I think we need more humour about muslim terrorism: always good to take the p1ss out of these people. Private Eye some time back ran a page of cartoons on this, some of which were rather good, e.g. the mad mullah talking to the small boy and asking him "What do you want to be when you blow up?", and another, with a mad mullah with  bomb belt strapped on instructing his pupils, "Now pay attention: I'm only going to do this once".    

Edited September 11, 2017 by exchemist

[Maine farmer]

Passing judgement on the jihadists as murderous scoundrels is not the same as passing judgement on all followers of Islam.

I'm glad we agree.  The problem is, we have so many who refuse to make that distinction. 

[OceanBreeze]

 

On which subject, I think we need more humour about muslim terrorism: always good to take the p1ss out of these people. Private Eye some time back ran a page of cartoons on this, some of which were rather good, e.g. the mad mullah talking to the small boy and asking him "What do you want to be when you blow up?", and another, with a mad mullah with  bomb belt strapped on instructing his pupils, "Now pay attention: I'm only going to do this once".    

 

I agree that humor is good, and we all can certainly benefit from laughing at each other and especially ourselves.

 

And, I must say there are aspects of both French and English culture I don’t care for, but again nothing to feel hatred towards, with the possible exception of English food! I mean, seriously “Marmalite” “spotted dick” what the hell? :shocked:

 

Cultural differences are what enrich this world and sometimes having a laugh at others expense is good and healthy. It is only very ignorant people who take that to the point of hatred.

 

Having said that, I am sure you do remember what happened with the Charlie Hebdo cartoons.

[Maine farmer]

As with Fahrenheit, gallons and pounds, I suppose. I'm old enough to remember how ghastly it was doing all the conversions, when the UK switched to metric units in science.  

I used to be annoyed at having to keep two sets of wrenches and sockets because some equipment used a mixture of metric and English unit nuts and bolts.  Then one day I was trying to remove a nut that was worn just enough to cause the 3/4 inch socket to slip, and I reached into the toolbox and pulled out an 18 mm socket that I was able to tap securely onto the nut with a hammer.  It worked beautifully!

[exchemist]

I agree that humor is good, and we all can certainly benefit from laughing at each other and especially ourselves.

 

And, I must say there are aspects of both French and English culture I don’t care for, but again nothing to feel hatred towards, with the possible exception of English food! I mean, seriously “Marmalite” “spotted dick” what the hell? :shocked:

 

Cultural differences are what enrich this world and sometimes having a laugh at others expense is good and healthy. It is only very ignorant people who take that to the point of hatred.

 

Having said that, I am sure you do remember what happened with the Charlie Hebdo cartoons.

Ho ho, it's "Marmite" actually, but I agree it's horrible. But we can all play that game. Peanut butter [retch]? Or those bizarrely named "biscuits", as in chicken and biscuits, which I once (only!) tried in Houston. Bleurgh. 

 

Steak and kidney pie or pudding is rather good, on a cold day, as is Christmas pudding or apple dumplings. Pheasant with red cabbage is pretty good. And you guys eat English breakfast. (As do the French, when they come here, thought they tend to keep jolly quiet about it.)

 

Re Charlie Hebdo, they actually set out to insult the religious conventions of muslims by unflattering depictions of the Prophet in the cartoons. I meant taking the p1ss out of the jihadis, not being gratuitously offensive about islam, which I would consider rather an uncivilised thing to do.    

Edited September 11, 2017 by exchemist

[exchemist]

I used to be annoyed at having to keep two sets of wrenches and sockets because some equipment used a mixture of metric and English unit nuts and bolts.  Then one day I was trying to remove a nut that was worn just enough to cause the 3/4 inch socket to slip, and I reached into the toolbox and pulled out an 18 mm socket that I was able to tap securely onto the nut with a hammer.  It worked beautifully!

Oh that's another can of worms. For nuts and bolts we used to have AF and Whitworth, both in Imperial units but incompatible with each other, and then metric in mm. Thankfully now it is all mm. 

[Maine farmer]

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You are harassing me.

Seriously, you should be able to tell the difference between challenging your assertions and harassing.

[OceanBreeze]

Ho ho, it's "Marmite" actually, but I agree it's horrible.

  

 

 

Haha! Where did I get “marmalite” from? It must have been all that talk about crystals and amorphous solids. Is it true that marmalite has never been found in crystal form?

[DrKrettin]

I used to be annoyed at having to keep two sets of wrenches and sockets because some equipment used a mixture of metric and English unit nuts and bolts.  Then one day I was trying to remove a nut that was worn just enough to cause the 3/4 inch socket to slip, and I reached into the toolbox and pulled out an 18 mm socket that I was able to tap securely onto the nut with a hammer.  It worked beautifully!

 

 

Typical: the slang word for a sledgehammer in England is an American screwdriver. 

[Buffy]

Haha! Where did I get “marmalite” from? It must have been all that talk about crystals and amorphous solids. Is it true that marmalite has never been found in crystal form?

 

Aussies will tell you that Vegemite is superior to Marmite because if left out for a few days in Coober Pedy, it will *not* crystalize.

 

 

I don't know everything about the Southern Hemisphere, but if you're fans of something as bad as Vegemite, we must have similar interests, :phones:

Buffy

[Deepwater6]

,

I now understand the meaning of "confusing date convention", which is followed by "I won't be doing anything in particular [on September 11, 2017]. For the record, I don't have anything planned for tomorrow that is out of the ordinary. This is relevant to a peek I made into the hidden post of the person who occupies the top (and bottom) of my ignore list.

 

What I do assume with no risk is that you understand the theme of the OP; and for that reason I now can make an informed judgement of your reply in post #2 above.

 

The man, "Ramzi Ahmed Yousef", who designed and helped build the bomb which exploded under the North Tower on February 26, 1993 said, after he was captured and interrogated, that his intent was to topple that tower onto the other tower, killing everyone within both towers and everyone below. That total would have been 50,000 minimum and up to 250,000.

 

It does not need to be stated that we can be sure as night follows day that there would be no reason to signify September 11, 2001 in relation to any towers had "Yousef" been successful on that day in 1993.

 

Now, on this forum we have a member, you "DrKrettin", who thinks the day on which actual, factual thousands who were killed in the successful toppling of those two buildings has no significance and to which ignored member #1 agrees.

 

This tells me there is something seriously wrong with "DrKrettin" and that I should add that name to my ignore list behind the one who thinks those who are "Jews" and "far right" can't be trusted to provide accurate content on their website--"Likudnik Jews" to be specific. Unbleeping believable.

 

Congratulations!

 

My list now reads:

 

exchemist

DrKrettin

 

The reason I put the 1993 bomb-maker's name inside quotes is, to quote the man who sentenced him, Judge Kevin Thomas Duffy, "We don't even know what your real name is." (nytimes.com)

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Scherado - We were all stunned and shocked by the 9/11 tragedy, but it seems to hold some underlying anger fueled significance to you. If some day, some where, people are planning additional terrorists attacks against the US (and I'm sure they are) there is not much a regular citizen can do about it no matter the date. Worrying is like a rocking chair, it keeps you busy, but it doesn't get you anywhere.

 

From what you wrote you seem very concerned and unhealthily enraged by the prospects of another attack. I'm not putting you down, but It may benefit you to seek counseling on the subject. Try looking at things from a fresh perspective.

 

"Only in quiet waters things mirror themselves undistorted. Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world."

 

Hans Margolius

[DrKrettin]

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Let's "talk" on 9/12/2017.

 

Thanks.

 

Fire away then, we are all on tenterhooks, or do we wait for the 9th December?

[exchemist]

Fire away then, we are all on tenterhooks, or do we wait for the 9th December?

I'm afraid she has outmanoeuvred you by putting you on her "ignore" list, to avoid having to go through with a discussion, now that the 9th November has passed without incident.