How To Build A Time Machine

[exchemist]

You have to beware of those who can't recognize humor and those who might think you are serious.  I have said things jokingly many times and had people think I was serious.  

True enough. But if was tongue in cheek no harm done and if it was serious I have disabused him of the error.  

[TomKalbfus]

Revelation

It is my least favorite part of the Bible. If I misspelled it, that is not a surprise. To have prophesy means to have no free will. If there is no free will, then the participants have no responsibility over their actions, they are little more than puppets. If God knows what everyone is going to do, and feels free to tell about it and we have no freedom to alter the destiny God has laid out for us, what is the point of punishing us for being evil if God assigned us that role? I don't much like the idea of an Antichrist, and how were all predicted to be a bunch of gullible dupes falling under his sway, all awaiting rescue by the second coming of Christ. If we humans can't help ourselves and can't choose between good and evil, then what are we but props in some divine play?

[Maine farmer]

It is my least favorite part of the Bible. If I misspelled it, that is not a surprise. To have prophesy means to have no free will. If there is no free will, then the participants have no responsibility over their actions, they are little more than puppets. If God knows what everyone is going to do, and feels free to tell about it and we have no freedom to alter the destiny God has laid out for us, what is the point of punishing us for being evil if God assigned us that role? I don't much like the idea of an Antichrist, and how were all predicted to be a bunch of gullible dupes falling under his sway, all awaiting rescue by the second coming of Christ. If we humans can't help ourselves and can't choose between good and evil, then what are we but props in some divine play?

That is why none of it makes sense.    How boring would it be to be all powerful and know everything that is going to happen?  I rather think that gambling would be more fun for a God.  We are all given a set of circumstances and we do what we choose, so events play out based on our actions with a myriad of possibilities.  Much more interesting!

[TomKalbfus]

That is why none of it makes sense.    How boring would it be to be all powerful and know everything that is going to happen?  I rather think that gambling would be more fun for a God.  We are all given a set of circumstances and we do what we choose, so events play out based on our actions with a myriad of possibilities.  Much more interesting!

I suspect that in this Universe, that somewhere there are beings that we might well consider to be gods, these "gods" do not come out of some belief system that we might have, but instead evolved originally out of beings like us, it is a huge Universe and its hard to believe that these beings don't exist. These "gods" do no magic, everything they do is allowed by the laws of physics, some laws that we don't know about yet may be employed in some of the things they do. So why can't we see them? My guess is they create their own "universes" and live in them, and tus consequently do not travel around in ours. If our universe is the real universe, then if we die, our deaths may be permanent, especially if the Universe is finite. I believe alien beings , not wishing to die, may upload themselves into a computer generated pretend Universe that seems real to them, but if they "die" in that Universe their essence is preserved and they may have another life. I think the appearance of death may serve a purpose, it may make their simulated reality seem more real to them, they ma have one life only in any given reality, all to give them a challenge to see how long they can remain alive in that reality. I don't know what's going to happen from my point of view, if I have a point of view, when I die. Everybody else who remains alive will see my corpse until they dispose of it in some fashion. Death, from their point of view, is the process of a thinking being becoming inanimate matter. In an infinite Universe, I may awake again in some other body, or perhaps in a simulation run by a computer, the arrangement could either be by design or by chance. There is a finite probability of my existing somewhere in the Universe after or before I die. If I am just a collection of atoms in a particular pattern, then that pattern could be repeated, and I could live again if the Universe lives or has lived long enough. My second life might happen in the future or in the past, causality does not apply when something is repeated by mere chance. I could wake up in a part of the Universe that is 100^(100^100) light years away, and 100^(100^100) years in the future or in the past, within a given volume of space with a given mass of certain types of atoms, very tiny probabilities do some strange things when multiplied by infinity!

[Vmedvil]

See, Logically I think that this can be all explained away much more simply what is happening in revelations, at some point in the future, Time Travel will be invented via a unknown method as of right now. If you had a time travel device and sent back "Visions to John", you could tell him everything that was going to happen from your view point in the past, right. The act of sending back that information would change certain parts of the future, Maybe 'God' exists only in a time pathway where Adolf Hitler wins WWII, during World War II if people had not believed in the information contained within the book of revelations, Creating a different form of the U.N. under Nazi control with Nazi ideas of eugenics "The New World Order" it is very possible that they would have discovered Virus mediated Gene Therapy and used it to create the perfect German have realized a way to control traits like blonde hair and blue eyes and filter out as the Nazi's viewed weaker traits such as brown eyes. At some point, someone would rebel against a regime of Nazism, and maybe the only way for this person to defeat Hitler or his son at that time was Bio-weapons and stop the oppression of the Jewish people in this non-revelations containing time pathway. He later after the defeat of Hitler or his son realizes that he could send back this book and all of the events of this overthrow would never happen and Hitler would lose by one simple edit to the past after reigning for such a long time and could see this alternate pathway and how much better it is. In one moment using reverse time communication makes that new information exist in the past, The Nazi's lose and they are all Temporal erased in a sort of delayed choice quantum erasure. That Time pathway becomes inactive as Hitler never reigns for longer than he does in our pathway never winning the war and a new timeline is generated. Those writings being nodes of another timeline being causality paradoxed into existence while that Nazi Timeline being causality paradoxed out of existence by the same node. That Information node would be a relic that does not describe the timeline it created but the one it removed. This could be what happens in a Grandfather Paradox when you kill your own grandfather or edit time so that

you are never born.

 

Step 1: Nazis Win World War 2 announcing the 'New World Order' and their control of the world

 

Step 2: Nazis Defeated after "Total Control established and atrocities committed" 

 

Step 3: Time Travel Considered to defeat the Nazis before they win

 

Step 4: Way to send information to the past to defeat the Nazis before Victory found

 

Step 5: Information sent to the past to defeat the Nazis before Victory

 

Step 6: Nazi Reign and Timeline removed from History past the point of Victory as being less probable now 

 

Step 7 : Nazi Defeat Timeline generated at World War 2 as being more probable now, Temporal Incursion Complete

 

 

This being said This could be just John's thoughts on the future, not actually from God, but divinely inspired as many have claimed with great ideas. but if that literally happened that could be a science answer.  

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Vmedvil

[TomKalbfus]

What is your criterion for your definition of "God?" If you believe in a God that is the master of an infinite Universe, that can never be. A god can only master a finite portion of any given Universe, an infinite God cannot think, cannot change. An infinite God has already thought every possible thought, it can never come to a conclusion or change the state of its mind, as it would be forever frozen with all possible answers already contained within it, since it contains everything! An infinite universe is a universe without a master or a creator, it always is, always was, and always will be, it extends forever in all directions. An infinite universe also has eternal life for every conscious being in it, although locally all things appear to die when their life expires, that is only because one can only view a finite portion of an infinite universe and one cannot perceive all of infinity. An infinite variety of every person that exists or who could exist also exists in this universe, assuming it is infinite. A person who dies wakes up in a new place in a new body where in improbably circumstance created that body and mind by pure happenstance with no cause and effect between the previous death and the subsequent reincarnation, the person who wakes up after dying probably assumes he has a soul that migrated from the previous body to the next, not so, the Universe simply created that body with memories and personality of that other person who died purely by chance. the theory goes that if you roll the dice a sufficient number of times, you will get whatever sequence of numbers you desire. if you have a large enough number of monkeys randomly pounding on the piano, one of them will eventual play Mozart, and in an infinite universe, that money exists an infinite number of times. and there is always a monkey playing Mozart somewhere in the Universe if you knew where to look. The Universe doesn't think or reason, it doesn't have to, it already has all the answers, not just the right ones, but also all of the wrong ones as well! :eek:

[DrKrettin]

I thought this was a science forum, not a science fiction comic book. Ah well.

[TomKalbfus]

Well we can bring it back to Time Travel rather than simulated Time Travel. Imagine the things we could do with a wormhole. Imagine if we were to accelerate it towards Sagittarius A, the black hold in the center of our galaxy. The black hole could then act as a vehicle to send one end of the wormhole one billion years into the future, and then we return it to our Solar System one billion years later! We can then use the wormhole to explore our future Solar System. Maybe through this, we can finally get a handle on the Cosmic filter, see if there is anything left of us, whether we altered our Solar System in any way. Would the planets still be there? The Universe would just be a little older than it is now one billion years later, and through a wormhole, we can explore than Universe.

 

So what are the ingredients for building this time machine?

One important thing is negative matter, without negative matter, we can't make a stable wormhole.

Edited October 1, 2017 by TomKalbfus

[DrKrettin]

Well we can bring it back to Time Travel rather than simulated Time Travel. Imagine the things we could do with a wormhole.

 

Still science fiction. I don't see the point, but please carry on without me.

[Vmedvil]

Still science fiction. I don't see the point, but please carry on without me.

 

I tend to agree with DrKrettin on this, I think it is much more likely that those are John's thoughts on the future than the set of notions I put forward are true, but I do imagine that is how the Grandfather Paradox and Parallel Universe timelines would resolve itself in the universe and no the Grandfather paradox is not set in fiction but fact and Parallel Universes are integral to String Theory. Both solve themselves at the Quantum level thus it is all about making an event less probable, but that example is definitely science fiction with some religious elements. The Delayed choice quantum eraser is also a science device that measures probably of actions on light. Virus mediated Gene Therapy is also a tool commonly used to make transgenic animals. The elements of science are definitely there and do you doubt that the Nazis would have not done something screwed up with nano-tech enough to make people want to kill them and overthrow them, most people hated them without nano-tech and world domination. Hell, it even takes in account the uncertainty principal, I think it is pretty accurate despite being a science fiction story. Lastly, it goes along with the bible account of revelations, what did you expect it to make perfect sense in reality, no, you would be dead wrong most things in the bible do not make perfect sense in reality.The Point was to learn something about how time-space views probability in that story, I always chose the most probable action to happen. Even considered that "He" would feel remorse about killing so many people to defeat Nazism which is likely and I tell you now, someday, maybe in the distant future, not in 3 generations like in this story's time travel, but it will be found maybe not matter-energy but information transport. Why do I claim that you may ask? Read about the speed of quantum entanglement which is a information transport at speeds much faster than light.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Vmedvil

[TomKalbfus]

I think the chance of World War II happening, before the event occurred was less than 50%, this is mostly because one man made it happen, and the chances were fairly good that he would have died during World War One. World War One offered him many opportunities to die, yet he did not. I think the most likely way World War Two could have started is when the Soviets attempt to stage a World Communist Revolution met with resistance by the other nations in the World, absent a Hitler. Stalin might have tried to back up a failed revolution in Western Europe with a military invasion of the same. Otherwise the atomic bomb might have been invented in Germany, Einstein and a lot of the key scientists and engineers would have been in Germany absent a Nazi regime.

[DrKrettin]

I think the chance of World War II happening, before the event occurred was less than 50%, this is mostly because one man made it happen, and the chances were fairly good that he would have died during World War One. 

 

I think this kind of statement is simplistic to the point of being totally meaningless. You could claim that any historical event is per se exceedingly unlikely, given the sequence of random events which led up to it. Norman victory in 1066; Greek victory at Salamis in 480 BC; the list is endless. All these contributed indirectly to the situation in Europe which lead to WWII.

[Maine farmer]

I think this kind of statement is simplistic to the point of being totally meaningless. You could claim that any historical event is per se exceedingly unlikely, given the sequence of random events which led up to it. Norman victory in 1066; Greek victory at Salamis in 480 BC; the list is endless. All these contributed indirectly to the situation in Europe which lead to WWII.

It's pretty much the same argument for there being a creator, because there is just no way all of the conditions on Earth could have been just right for us to exist just by chance.  It is also the same argument the "Ancient Aliens" show makes every week on the History channel. :rofl:   Always good to have a good belly laugh before bed.

[Vmedvil]

It's pretty much the same argument for there being a creator, because there is just no way all of the conditions on Earth could have been just right for us to exist just by chance.  It is also the same argument the "Ancient Aliens" show makes every week on the History channel. :rofl:   Always good to have a good belly laugh before bed.

 

I do tend to believe that every life, for that matter, every molecule and atom has a deep effect on time and probability of a event happening due to the butterfly effect as DrKrettin says that statement being way to simple for a target event such as WWII not starting, and no the start of WWII is more than 50% probable or it would not have happened.  I have a tool that may help resolve this issue, a Chronography of human history with events that effected other events. https://histography.io/

 

Remember this about cause and effect.

 

 

Take us to the Zahl homeworld, prepare a new set of calculations. We must erase the entire species from time, every life form... every molecule.

-Annarox, Alien Time Lord

 

Obrist: Temporal incursion is complete. All organisms and man-made objects have been eradicated.

 

Annorax: If I told you to count the stars in the cosmos - would the task ever be complete?

[on Obrist's claim that the erasure of the Zahl homeworld has produced a complete temporal restoration]

 

That is about the precision that you would need for a perfect event change, but even then there is uncertainty of position and momentum.

 

 

 

 

Annorax: [after Chakotay has eradicated a comet in a simulation to change Voyager's history] Congratulations. You almost wiped out 8,000 civilizations. 

 

Annorax: You're an anomalous component - alone, disconnected, impossible to predict. You have no idea how you've complicated my mission. 

 

It is not as easy nor as safe as what you may think. Read about Quantum erasers and Time-Warped Fields, you can never know how "Exactly" even the smallest change could effect history, as many variables as stars in the sky.

 

 

Even, that distant dot in the sky is slightly changing the fate at 329 light-years away of this satellite via its gravity, spin, electromagnetism, and particle release and vice versa.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Vmedvil

[Maine farmer]

I do tend to believe that every life, for that matter, every molecule and atom has a deep effect on time and probability of a event happening due to the butterfly effect as DrKrettin says that statement being way to simple for a target event such as WWII not starting, and no the start of WWII is more than 50% probable or it would not have happened.  I have a tool that may help resolve this issue, a Chronography of human history with events that effected other events. https://histography.io/

 

Remember this about cause and effect.

 

 

Take us to the Zahl homeworld, prepare a new set of calculations. We must erase the entire species from time, every life form... every molecule.

-Annarox, Alien Time Lord

 

Obrist: Temporal incursion is complete. All organisms and man-made objects have been eradicated.

 

Annorax: If I told you to count the stars in the cosmos - would the task ever be complete?

[on Obrist's claim that the erasure of the Zahl homeworld has produced a complete temporal restoration]

 

That is about the precision that you would need for a perfect event change, but even then there is uncertainty of position and momentum.

 

 

 

 

Annorax: [after Chakotay has eradicated a comet in a simulation to change Voyager's history] Congratulations. You almost wiped out 8,000 civilizations. 

 

Annorax: You're an anomalous component - alone, disconnected, impossible to predict. You have no idea how you've complicated my mission. 

 

It is not as easy nor as safe as what you may think. Read about Quantum erasers and Time-Warped Fields, you can never know how "Exactly" even the smallest change could effect history, as many variables as stars in the sky.

 

 

Even, that distant dot in the sky is slightly changing the fate at 329 light-years away of this satellite via its gravity, spin, electromagnetism, and particle release and vice versa.

Ah, I see you are a Star Trek fan.  I am too, although not to the point of remembering enough quotes to write down.  (But I admit that I now only need to see a few seconds of any of the original series to know the episode it belongs in.)

 

I've already said (in another thread about time travel) that even if you could travel back in time, you couldn't change anything because anything you might do, you will have already done, since it was done in the past.(Even if you think you haven't done it yet.)  

[TomKalbfus]

I think this kind of statement is simplistic to the point of being totally meaningless. You could claim that any historical event is per se exceedingly unlikely, given the sequence of random events which led up to it. Norman victory in 1066; Greek victory at Salamis in 480 BC; the list is endless. All these contributed indirectly to the situation in Europe which lead to WWII.

There was a general sweep of history which led to World War I, you had a rising power Germany which grew envious of other nations which had colonial empires so it wanted to build its own. This clash of civilizations was predictable the powers of Europe were getting ready for it for a generation. World War II was a different beast, you had a nation that was defeated in the first World War, they were unhappy, and you also had the threat of Communism which was also elevated by the First World War in the form of the Soviet Union, the current government of Germany was not adequate in meeting these challenges and they established parties were not dong a good job, so the people looked for more radical alternatives, the Nazis appeared to be more effective in challenging Communism than the other parties, so the Germans wishing to avoid a Communist revolution in their country elected the Nazis into their government, the Nazis were a relative newcomer to the scene, the Communists were a known factor after the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, and the two main parties the Christian Democrats and the Social Democrats were seen as failures. The rise to power of the Nazis in 1933 was a predictable event, the person who rose to power at the head of the Nazi Party was not, and neither was the direction he took his country in. The rise of power of a dictator does not always lead to a World War. There are a lot of countries led by dictators that do not start wars. I think the chances were greater that democracy would not last in the Weimar Republic of Germany because of the forces arrayed against it. The chances of whoever taking control of the Government of Germany starting World War II was much less. Adolf Hitler was among other things a risk taker, he kept on rolling the dice and his luck held out long enough for Germany to become a significant power and start World War II. Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, and France quickly fell to the Germans and made a significant power base for Hitler to wage war on the rest of the World. Overnight, Hitler created a superpower where just a few years earlier none existed, and then started a World War with it where 50 million people died!, that was not a predictable course of history. The more predictable clash was a conflict between the West and the Soviet Union. the German Empire was destroyed by World War I, and there was no reason to believe that a defeated nation could quickly build another one, because as they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.

[exchemist]

I do tend to believe that every life, for that matter, every molecule and atom has a deep effect on time and probability of a event happening due to the butterfly effect as DrKrettin says that statement being way to simple for a target event such as WWII not starting, and no the start of WWII is more than 50% probable or it would not have happened.  I have a tool that may help resolve this issue, a Chronography of human history with events that effected other events. https://histography.io/

 

 

Obrist: Temporal incursion is complete. All organisms and man-made objects have been eradicated.

 

Annorax: If I told you to count the stars in the cosmos - would the task ever be complete?

[on Obrist's claim that the erasure of the Zahl homeworld has produced a complete temporal restoration]

 

That is about the precision that you would need for a perfect event change, but even then there is uncertainty of position and momentum.

 

 

 

 

 

What's with the Greek chi and rho? Should be "x" and "p" shouldn't it? Anyone would think you are introducing a code for Christianity into physics. Or was that intentional?   :)

 

But I like the idea of a nerd called Annorax. Train-spotter? 

Edited October 2, 2017 by exchemist