World Oil

[houseknight]

Aha, so no references to support your claim and instead an argument that we somehow know they are bent on a caliphate even if there is no evidence for it! Brilliant! It must be true then. 

 

And now, I look forward to you not having evidence for your new claim that Iran intends to capture KSA's oil reserves.  How do we know this, please?  Because of a lack of evidence? (Very cunning, these muslims). 

Iran supports anti-Saudi movements in Yemen, in Bahrain, in Saudi Arabia itself. Iran and Saudi proxies clash in Syria and Lebanon. Saudis seek help against Iran in the american administration, tune Israel, try to appease Putin. Do You believe them insane? Let get link from everyday news. 

[exchemist]

Iran supports anti-Saudi movements in Yemen, in Bahrain, in Saudi Arabia itself. Iran and Saudi proxies clash in Syria and Lebanon. Saudis seek help against Iran in the american administration, tune Israel, try to appease Putin. Do You believe them insane? Let get link from everyday news. 

Sure they do. But that doesn't prove they want to capture KSA's oil reserves, which is what you claim. For a start, KSA's oil reserves are not located in Yemen or Bahrain. Durrh!

 

There is a fight for regional dominance, but there is no suggestion that Iran plans to invade KSA to take their oil. You have invented this. 

 

Tell me, do you have evidence for ANY of the extravagant claims you make on this forum? 

Edited October 19, 2017 by exchemist

[houseknight]

Sure they do. But that doesn't prove they want to capture KSA's oil reserves, which is what you claim. For a start, KSA's oil reserves are not located in Yemen or Bahrain. Durrh!

 

There is a fight for regional dominance, but there is no suggestion that Iran plans to invade KSA to take their oil. You have invented this. 

 

Tell me, do you have evidence for ANY of the extravagant claims you make on this forum? 

Occasionally, whole oil deposit of Saudi Arabia is placed in eastern part of this country, where most of inhabitants are Shiites. Shiite secession from Saudi Arabia may turn Shiites Masters of the World. Link: Wikipedia.

[exchemist]

Occasionally, whole oil deposit of Saudi Arabia is placed in eastern part of this country, where most of inhabitants are Shiites. Shiite secession from Saudi Arabia may turn Shiites Masters of the World. Link: Wikipedia.

Secession might, just conceivably, take place, but this is pure speculation on your part, as would be any claim of a supposed attempt by Iran to foment it. You have zero evidence for any of this.

 

But in any case, such a move would not make Iran - or Shiites more widely - "Masters of the World". This is a very old conspiracy-theory notion that whoever controls such-and-such piece of Middle Eastern oil can somehow hold the world to ransom. It's just rubbish. Oil sources are well-diversified today and whoever controls the oilfields has to sell his oil if he wants any revenue. So the oil always gets to market , somehow, and as oil is a fully global, traded commodity, there is little or no effect on the world oil supply as a result. The most anybody can do by manipulation of who they supply to is to increase some countries' freight and refining costs a bit. Hardly catastrophic. Increasingly too, the world is reducing its dependence on oil. Its price is circumscribed by the alternative energy sources now available. 

 

So I get very weary of these old-timer conspiracy theories, trying to make our flesh creep with stories of regimes we don't like, supposedly capturing the world's oil. It's nonsense. 

 

Iran is a medium-sized industrial nation, with a large and educated middle class. I wish I could say the same for Saudi Arabia. I think Obama was dead right to bring Iran in from the cold and thereby use that middle class to press for more freedoms and normality in Iran. Don't forget: It is Saudi, not Iran, that bred the Sunni zealots who formed Al-Qa'ida and Daesh. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by exchemist

[houseknight]

Secession might, just conceivably, take place, but this is pure speculation on your part, as would be any claim of a supposed attempt by Iran to foment it. You have zero evidence for any of this.

 

But in any case, such a move would not make Iran - or Shiites more widely - "Masters of the World". This is a very old conspiracy-theory notion that whoever controls such-and-such piece of Middle Eastern oil can somehow hold the world to ransom. It's just rubbish. Oil sources are well-diversified today and whoever controls the oilfields has to sell his oil if he wants any revenue. So the oil always gets to market , somehow, and as oil is a fully global, traded commodity, there is little or no effect on the world oil supply as a result. The most anybody can do by manipulation of who they supply to is to increase some countries' freight and refining costs a bit. Hardly catastrophic. Increasingly too, the world is reducing its dependence on oil. It's price is circumscribed by the alternative energy sources now available. 

 

So I get very weary of these old-timer conspiracy theories, trying to make our flesh creep with stories of regimes we don't like, supposedly capturing the world's oil. It's nonsense. 

 

Iran is a medium-sized industrial nation, with a large and educated middle class. I wish I could say the same for Saudi Arabia. I think Obama was dead right to bring Iran in from the cold and thereby use that middle class to press for more freedoms and normality in Iran. Don't forget: It is Saudi, not Iran, that bred the Sunni zealots who formed Al-Qa'ida and Daesh. 

Iranian middle class does exist, but ayatollahs relay on less developed parts of Iran society. They try to brake independent thoughts. Extreme Islamism, anti-Semitism, сhauvinism, external aggression, anti- Americanism, cruel suppression of any internal opposition, are means to rescue their out-of-dated regime. Lifting sanctions, Obama just helped suppressive regime. "Annihilating Israel" and "Liberating Jerusalem" campaign aim both internal Iranian and external Muslim audience. This is first of all propaganda campaign. In addition, Ayatollahs seek temporary alliance with Western anti-Semites, based on common "values". All this doesn't mean, that ayatollahs won't annihilate Israel if allowed. The existence of Israel in the Middle East interferes with Ayatollahs' ideological and practical goals.

[exchemist]

Iranian middle class does exist, but ayatollahs relay on less developed parts of Iran society. They try to brake independent thoughts. Extreme Islamism, anti-Semitism, сhauvinism, external aggression, anti- Americanism, cruel suppression of any internal opposition, are means to rescue their out-of-dated regime. Lifting sanctions, Obama just helped suppressive regime. "Annihilating Israel" and "Liberating Jerusalem" campaign aim both internal Iranian and external Muslim audience. This is first of all propaganda campaign. In addition, Ayatollahs seek temporary alliance with Western anti-Semites, based on common "values". All this doesn't mean, that ayatollahs won't annihilate Israel if allowed. The existence of Israel in the Middle East interferes with Ayatollahs' ideological and practical goals.

What rubbish. How are they going to "annihilate" Israel. Israel is a nuclear-armed state, backed by the most powerful nuclear state in the world.  Iranians know that perfectly well. I repeat: they are not mad. 

 

Mind you, I do think a very large amount of Arab, as distinct from Iranian, resentment of the West could be dealt with by a more constructive attitude on the part of the Israeli government. There is little doubt that the main, root cause of Arab grievance is the total failure of Israel to make any serious effort to seek a realistic accommodation with the Palestinians. Instead, the government of Israel has seemed intent on giving them no hope of any legitimate settlement, thereby driving them into the arms of terrorism - which the Israeli government then uses to demonise them further as an excuse not to have any dealings with them. And so the misery goes on.

 

This has not gone unnoticed: it is why Israel is losing the support of Europe, for example. Which the Israeli government tries to portray, quite falsely, as "antisemitism".    

Edited October 20, 2017 by exchemist

[houseknight]

Secession might, just conceivably, take place, but this is pure speculation on your part, as would be any claim of a supposed attempt by Iran to foment it. You have zero evidence for any of this.

 

But in any case, such a move would not make Iran - or Shiites more widely - "Masters of the World". This is a very old conspiracy-theory notion that whoever controls such-and-such piece of Middle Eastern oil can somehow hold the world to ransom. It's just rubbish. Oil sources are well-diversified today and whoever controls the oilfields has to sell his oil if he wants any revenue. So the oil always gets to market , somehow, and as oil is a fully global, traded commodity, there is little or no effect on the world oil supply as a result. The most anybody can do by manipulation of who they supply to is to increase some countries' freight and refining costs a bit. Hardly catastrophic. Increasingly too, the world is reducing its dependence on oil. Its price is circumscribed by the alternative energy sources now available. 

 

So I get very weary of these old-timer conspiracy theories, trying to make our flesh creep with stories of regimes we don't like, supposedly capturing the world's oil. It's nonsense. 

 

Iran is a medium-sized industrial nation, with a large and educated middle class. I wish I could say the same for Saudi Arabia. I think Obama was dead right to bring Iran in from the cold and thereby use that middle class to press for more freedoms and normality in Iran. Don't forget: It is Saudi, not Iran, that bred the Sunni zealots who formed Al-Qa'ida and Daesh. 

You know perfectly, that even small reduction of oil production causes oil price to jump. Presidents Bush, Obama and all European leaders cringed before backward Saudis. Do You believe all them are so retarded? Saudi oil deposites exceed all other Middle East deposites taken together. Saudis have no rivals. Let go to Wikipedia.  This game is worth the candle.

[houseknight]

What rubbish. How are they going to "annihilate" Israel. Israel is a nuclear-armed state, backed by the most powerful nuclear state in the world.  Iranians know that perfectly well. I repeat: they are not mad. 

 

Mind you, I do think a very large amount of Arab, as distinct from Iranian, resentment of the West could be dealt with by a more constructive attitude on the part of the Israeli government. There is little doubt that the main, root cause of Arab grievance is the total failure of Israel to make any serious effort to seek a realistic accommodation with the Palestinians. Instead, the government of Israel has seemed intent on giving them no hope of any legitimate settlement, thereby driving them into the arms of terrorism - which the Israeli government then uses to demonise them further as an excuse not to have any dealings with them. And so the misery goes on.

 

This has not gone unnoticed: it is why Israel is losing the support of Europe, for example. Which the Israeli government tries to portray, quite falsely, as "antisemitism".    

"What rubbish"...  Just I state, that Your old, flat "theory" that all ills of the Middle East occur because of Israel, persecuting Palestinians, is simply anti-Semitic rubbish. Actually, both Arab nationalists and Islamists knowingly persecute the Jewish State for more than 100 years. The Palestinians always were part of this Arab and Islamic aggression. They are conscious of their key role in Arab and Islamist propaganda, and they exploit their position with the purpose to get support and money. Palestinians undermined all attempts to achieve peace solution. Currently, the existing Palestinian State relays by 100% on external money and external support. And this fact is main obstacle for peace.

[exchemist]

"What rubbish"...  Just I state, that Your old, flat "theory" that all ills of the Middle East occur because of Israel, persecuting Palestinians, is simply anti-Semitic rubbish. Actually, both Arab nationalists and Islamists knowingly persecute the Jewish State for more than 100 years. The Palestinians always were part of this Arab and Islamic aggression. They are conscious of their key role in Arab and Islamist propaganda, and they exploit their position with the purpose to get support and money. Palestinians undermined all attempts to achieve peace solution. Currently, the existing Palestinian State relays by 100% on external money and external support. And this fact is main obstacle for peace.

BINGO! Haha, I wondered how long it would be before you tried on the good old antisemitic schtick.  But it's rot. 

 

By the way, Israel was founded in 1948, a lot less than 100 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state

 

And Israel too relies on US financial (and military) support: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/history-and-overview-of-u-s-foreign-aid-to-israel  

[houseknight]

exchemist, on 20 Oct 2017 - 8:03 PM, said:"

 

1."By the way, Israel was founded in 1948, a lot less than 100 years ago: https://en.wikipedia...ki/Jewish_state"

 

I know perfectly, that Israel was founded in 1948, but Muslims, including Palestinians, did all with the purpose to prevent Jewish State yet before modern Zionism started. Actually, after Crusaders were ousted in XII century, Muslims performed non-announced slow genocide of Christians and Jews in the whole Middle East. This process lasts until now. Turkish Empire prevented medieval Zionism of Shabtai Tzvi (XVII century, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi), it tried to stop Modern Zionism of Hertzl (the last changed his mind to Uganda after meeting with Turkish sultan). Then Palestinians launched 1922, 1929 and 1936-1939 Intifadas. Britons have limited (1929) and forbade (1939) Jewish immigration to Palestine. Then (1946) Britons brought to Palestine their new ally Haj Amin al Husseini, former Hitler's pupil, with clear purpose to perform new genocide of the Jews, at the hands of Palestinian people. Palestinian Naqba was actually, panic, caused by the failure of Palestinian militant forces (50.000 armed people against 25.000 Haganah force).

 

2."And Israel too relies on US financial (and military) support: http://www.jewishvir...aid-to-israel  "

 

The people of Israel are due to American people their lives and the very existence of the Jewish State. While almost all other peoples seek the annihilation of Israel, or are helping genocidal intentions of Muslims and Palestinians, the only people, who help Israel, against will of their own "elites", are noble Americans.

Edited October 21, 2017 by houseknight

[Buffy]

The people of Israel are due to American people their lives and the very existence of the Jewish State. While almost all other peoples seek the annihilation of Israel, or are helping genocidal intentions of Muslims and Palestinians, the only people, who help Israel, against will of their own "elites", are noble Americans.

It's pretty hard to take anything you say at face value when you say stuff like that.

 

Oh yah, thank God the Americans love Israel....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n12sjwk9FBE

 

 

Your average eastern seaboard liberal Jew, who takes his marching orders from The New York Times and reads Phillip Roth in his spare time, will likely never want to have anything to do with the far right – even if his life depended on it. Bibi Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman are a different story, :phones:

Buffy

[exchemist]

 

exchemist, on 20 Oct 2017 - 8:03 PM, said:"

 

1."By the way, Israel was founded in 1948, a lot less than 100 years ago: https://en.wikipedia...ki/Jewish_state"

 

I know perfectly, that Israel was founded in 1948, but Muslims, including Palestinians, did all with the purpose to prevent Jewish State yet before modern Zionism started. Actually, after Crusaders were ousted in XII century, Muslims performed non-announced slow genocide of Christians and Jews in the whole Middle East. This process lasts until now. Turkish Empire prevented medieval Zionism of Shabtai Tzvi (XVII century, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi), it tried to stop Modern Zionism of Hertzl (the last changed his mind to Uganda after meeting with Turkish sultan). Then Palestinians launched 1922, 1929 and 1936-1939 Intifadas. Britons have limited (1929) and forbade (1939) Jewish immigration to Palestine. Then (1946) Britons brought to Palestine their new ally Haj Amin al Husseini, former Hitler's pupil, with clear purpose to perform new genocide of the Jews, at the hands of Palestinian people. Palestinian Naqba was actually, panic, caused by the failure of Palestinian militant forces (50.000 armed people against 25.000 Haganah force).

 

2."And Israel too relies on US financial (and military) support: http://www.jewishvir...aid-to-israel  "

 

The people of Israel are due to American people their lives and the very existence of the Jewish State. While almost all other peoples seek the annihilation of Israel, or are helping genocidal intentions of Muslims and Palestinians, the only people, who help Israel, against will of their own "elites", are noble Americans.

 

Very ingenious of them to "persecute the Jewish State" before it even existed.

 

You are all over the place with your unsupportable assertions.

 

Enough already.    

Edited October 21, 2017 by exchemist

[houseknight]

http://www.scienceforums.com/user/787-buffy/

 

"It's pretty hard to take anything you say at face value when you say stuff like that.

Oh yah, thank God the Americans love Israel...."

 

The marginals from both sides, thanks God, do not prevail in the USA. I may add, that European "left" exceeds american far right in its fierce anti-Semitism. Not to mention Muslim anti-Semites.

This and one more my topic may explain to Americans, including American Jews, what is really going with Israel and Muslims. You don't understand the behaviour of the people of Israel because of overwhelming media anti-Israel bias. You don't understand, why did Israelis vote for Nethanyahu and generally, Right. You don't understand why Nethanyahu takes his measures. I don't claim, that all his steps are correct, but generally his policies aim to rescue Israel  from islamic and Palestinian assault. If You don't distinguish this assault, You cannot understand, why do Israelis stay in so fighting posture.

Edited October 21, 2017 by houseknight

[Buffy]

You don't understand the behaviour of the people of Israel because of overwhelming media anti-Israel bias. You don't understand, why did Israelis vote for Nethanyahu and generally, Right. You don't understand why Nethanyahu takes his measures. I don't claim, that all his steps are correct, but generally his policies aim to rescue Israel  from islamic and Palestinian assault. If You don't distinguish this assault, You cannot understand, why do Israelis stay in so fighting posture.

"overwhelming media anti-Israel bias" is pure paranoia on your part.

 

Do not tell me what I do not understand: I may not have become Mitzvah myself, but my daughter is a practicing Jew and I have spent more time in temple than many Jews have. I have friends who live both on the Lebanon border and near Gaza who have had missiles right overhead.

 

You paint Israelis as monolithic in their beliefs and unified behind Netanyahu which is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Netanyahu survives thanks to his alliance with the Orthodox parties that are constitutionally over-represented in the Knesset. He has no more "mandate" in Israel than Trump has in the US.

 

You come in here expecting that you can pull the wool over the eyes of an audience here who are in many cases not familiar with the political situation in Israel, and sorry, but my job here is to correct the propaganda you're pushing. 

 

I'm sure you believe it, but I have a score of Israeli friends and acquaintances who mostly disagree with you about Netanyahu's unrestricted support of settlements, and saber rattling at Iran, let alone the ethnic cleansing of Judea and Samaria that only the very far-right parties support. Your rhetoric about the Palestinians being "just Arabs" and not having a right to live anywhere near Israel is right out of this far-right-wing propaganda.

 

This is not about Pro-Israel vs Pro-Palestinian. This is about Israeli and American Jews both arguing about what the best *political* solution for reducing the very real threats by numerous groups to Israeli security. Over-the-top rhetoric like that which you employ is exactly the same as the crap that comes from Hezbollah and the Revolutionary Guard: both you and they prefer that there be no knowledge of the fact that the majority of people in both Israel and Iran as well as other Arab nations, would prefer there *not* be more warfare.

 

Both active support of taking of Palestinian land as well as firing of missiles are hostile acts, and while right to defense is recognized in international law, the middle east has seen 70 years of both sides pouring gasoline on the fire.

 

Calling yourself pure and your enemies evil just makes the situation worse and pretty much ensures that people who might otherwise support you think of you as just as bad as the other side.

 

Fortunately for world peace, most Israelis and especially American Jews don't agree with you. 

 

In the US we're used to being attacked by fundamentalist right-wing Christians for being "self-hating Jews" and that's where most of Netanyahu's backing in the US comes from, which is incredibly ironic.

 

Your simplistic analysis here does nothing to educate or to further the development of solutions, and if you intend to just pontificate about your extremist views, I'd suggest you stop and go elsewhere. You're doing nothing but making people mad here.

 

 

You don't make peace with friends. You make it with very unsavory enemies, :phones:

Buffy

[houseknight]

"overwhelming media anti-Israel bias" is pure paranoia on your part.

 

Do not tell me what I do not understand: I may not have become Mitzvah myself, but my daughter is a practicing Jew and I have spent more time in temple than many Jews have. I have friends who live both on the Lebanon border and near Gaza who have had missiles right overhead.

 

You paint Israelis as monolithic in their beliefs and unified behind Netanyahu which is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Netanyahu survives thanks to his alliance with the Orthodox parties that are constitutionally over-represented in the Knesset. He has no more "mandate" in Israel than Trump has in the US.

 

You come in here expecting that you can pull the wool over the eyes of an audience here who are in many cases not familiar with the political situation in Israel, and sorry, but my job here is to correct the propaganda you're pushing. 

 

I'm sure you believe it, but I have a score of Israeli friends and acquaintances who mostly disagree with you about Netanyahu's unrestricted support of settlements, and saber rattling at Iran, let alone the ethnic cleansing of Judea and Samaria that only the very far-right parties support. Your rhetoric about the Palestinians being "just Arabs" and not having a right to live anywhere near Israel is right out of this far-right-wing propaganda.

 

This is not about Pro-Israel vs Pro-Palestinian. This is about Israeli and American Jews both arguing about what the best *political* solution for reducing the very real threats by numerous groups to Israeli security. Over-the-top rhetoric like that which you employ is exactly the same as the crap that comes from Hezbollah and the Revolutionary Guard: both you and they prefer that there be no knowledge of the fact that the majority of people in both Israel and Iran as well as other Arab nations, would prefer there *not* be more warfare.

 

Both active support of taking of Palestinian land as well as firing of missiles are hostile acts, and while right to defense is recognized in international law, the middle east has seen 70 years of both sides pouring gasoline on the fire.

 

Calling yourself pure and your enemies evil just makes the situation worse and pretty much ensures that people who might otherwise support you think of you as just as bad as the other side.

 

Fortunately for world peace, most Israelis and especially American Jews don't agree with you. 

 

In the US we're used to being attacked by fundamentalist right-wing Christians for being "self-hating Jews" and that's where most of Netanyahu's backing in the US comes from, which is incredibly ironic.

 

Your simplistic analysis here does nothing to educate or to further the development of solutions, and if you intend to just pontificate about your extremist views, I'd suggest you stop and go elsewhere. You're doing nothing but making people mad here.

 

 

You don't make peace with friends. You make it with very unsavory enemies, :phones:

Buffy

Your accusations of "propaganda" are so numerous, that I must refer to my above article, and my above replies. My assertion, that Israel must recognize Palestine NOW, contradicts Netanyahu policies. It contradicts the opinion of the Israeli people majority. Your Israeli friends lose the government because of they lose elections. Not just Netanyahu but generally the Right, including religious parties, Jewish Home and Lieberman, got clear mandate to rule. Currently, the new Left leader Avi Gabai asserted, that he has no intention to destroy Jewish villages and towns at the West Bank. And this is nothing new: Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres had no intention to transfer Jews from the West Bank and Gaza. See, for example, Oslo agreements. The first to transfer Jews were Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert. Their "Disengagement", clearly, was mistake, because of such move was understood by Muslims as Muhammad-styled "surrendering of Jews", see my post "Islam with Human Face" on this board: http://www.scienceforums.com/topic/30569-islam-with-human-face/. As a consequence, HAMAS' election success caused "Peace process" to stall.

You call my thorough analysis "Propaganda". I may only repeat my please: let Americans, including American Jews, learn facts, history, the Qur'an, modern politics of the Middle East, which is tied to Qur'an, Israeli opinion polls. And, finally, let recognize the results of elections in the USA, Israel and Europe. It seams, the Left will lose until it will learn about Islam, Jihad etc. The Left betrayed its social agenda and turned pro-islamist. But Islam isn't "social" at all. Muhammad was wealthy man, and the only "social" task in Qur'an is demand to give alms. And permission to rob "Infidels".

Edited October 22, 2017 by houseknight

[Buffy]

Your accusations of "propaganda" are so numerous, that I must refer to my above article, and my above replies.

It's odd that you should say that since you used the term in 3 different posts earlier in this thread, and I only used it in the last post. I have, unfortunately, slogged through all of your posts so far.

 

My assertion, that Israel must recognize Palestine NOW, contradicts Netanyahu policies. It contradicts the opinion of the Israeli people majority.

Well I hate to contradict you, but your assertion in the OP is, well, a bit contradictory:

 

Also, we must recognize the independence of Palestine and maintain the occupation of the Palestinian territories, as required by the security of Israel, especially in view of the approaching war with the ayatollah-fascists seeking their «World Caliphate», namely, world domination.

You want to *both* recognize a State of Palestine *and* keep it under military occupation? Do you understand what a "State" is?

 

I mean, that's pretty much what the Brits were offering you back in 1946: You get a "Jewish State" but the UK has permanent occupation of your state. Why weren't y'all fine with that?

 

 

Your Israeli friends lose the government because of they lose elections. Not just Netanyahu but generally the Right, including religious parties, Jewish Home and Lieberman, got clear mandate to rule. Currently, the new Left leader Avi Gabai asserted, that he has no intention to destroy Jewish villages and towns at the West Bank. And this is nothing new: Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres had no intention to transfer Jews from the West Bank and Gaza. See, for example, Oslo agreements. The first to transfer Jews were Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert. Their "Disengagement", clearly, was mistake, because of such move was understood by Muslims as Muhammad-styled "surrendering of Jews", see my post "Islam with Human Face" on this board: http://www.scienceforums.com/topic/30569-islam-with-human-face/. As a consequence, HAMAS' election success caused "Peace process" to stall.

Your analysis is marred mainly by the fact that you continue to ignore something I mentioned: The Israeli constitution guarantees religious parties a greater representation in the government than their numbers would dictate. It's also been unquestionably true that the Left parties have been in disarray with Sharon's creation of Kadima doing a great deal of damage to Labor.

 

Your analysis of Sharon and Olmert are interesting of course because while you don't mention it, Sharon was a Likud hawk until he became prime minister, whereupon he lurched to the left and yes, pushed for disengaging from the Palestinian territories, actually completing it in Gaza. Your argument that this caused the peace process to stall it kind of silly, since little progress has been made since the failed Camp David Summit in 2000, while the Disengagement occurred more than half a decade later. 

 

While certainly both sides have fired on one another very significantly since 2000, including unrestrained attacks on civilians, the active promotion of new settlements in the West Bank by Netanyahu has been a significant demonstration of bad faith, showing that Israel has no intention of fulfilling the Oslo Accords stated goal of creation of a Palestinian State, while Disengagement in fact had many people encouraged: if a

hawk like Sharon could come around, surely there could eventually be a similar break on the Palestinian side, and in fact the PA--although admittedly not Hamas--has been seeking an agreement.

 

And before you start accusing me of not understanding "what it's like to have rockets fired at you" the summer 2014 rocket attacks all over Israel literally started the hour my daughter was landing at Ben Gurion airport. So no, I'm not just sitting here smug and clueless in the US.

 

There are extremists on both sides, and most focus on "eliminationist" strategies like the hardliners (who, remember, are out of power) in Iran, and the settler-associated parties like Tkuma who support full annexation of the West Bank and Gaza. But these people are the minority, and most people on both sides recognize that eventually some agreement on division of land must be found.

 

But the notion that the solution is a Palestinian State that is under permanent occupation is just plain silly. That's basically what exists now, with the exception that Israel and the western nations recognize the Palestinian Authority but without that pesky term "State."  

 

You call my thorough analysis "Propaganda". I may only repeat my please: let Americans, including American Jews, learn facts, history, the Qur'an, modern politics of the Middle East, which is tied to Qur'an, Israeli opinion polls. And, finally, let recognize the results of elections in the USA, Israel and Europe. It seams, the Left will lose until it will learn about Islam, Jihad etc. The Left betrayed its social agenda and turned pro-islamist. But Islam isn't "social" at all. Muhammad was wealthy man, and the only "social" task in Qur'an is demand to give alms. And permission to rob "Infidels".

Facts are fine. I wish you'd not only stick to them, but stop pretending that half of them don't exist. That's the propaganda part. "The Left's" problem is not that they have turned "pro-Islamist"--that's just slander--and the fact that you have to resort to crap like "permission to rob 'infidels'" is just plain demonization. 

 

Do the parties each have legitimate grievances? Sure! But trying to portray those who merely disagree with you as monsters is just a waste of time. We get enough of that on Facebook and Twitter these days, and the fact that Facebook banned you is pretty much an indication how far out on the fringes you are: it's pretty hard to get banned on Facebook. Less hard in many other places on the Internet.

 

 

 

As one who fought in all of Israel's wars, and learned from personal experience that without proper force, we do not have a chance of surviving in this region, which does not show mercy towards the weak, I have also learned from experience that the sword alone cannot decide this bitter dispute in this land, :phones:

Buffy

[houseknight]

houseknight, on 19 Oct 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Also, we must recognize the independence of Palestine and maintain the occupation of the Palestinian territories, as required by the security of Israel, especially in view of the approaching war with the ayatollah-fascists seeking their «World Caliphate», namely, world domination.

 

Buffy: "You want to *both* recognize a State of Palestine *and* keep it under military occupation? Do you understand what a "State" is?
 
I mean, that's pretty much what the Brits were offering you back in 1946: You get a "Jewish State" but the UK has permanent occupation of your state. Why weren't y'all fine with that?"

 

 

Well, My proposal seems paradox, but it's paradox, forced by Middle East realities and Islamic assault. The Palestinian People, obviously, don't wont peace with the Jews. Palestinian people's overwhelming vote for HAMAS, proclaiming annihilation of Israel, is clear enough to expose what is going. Israel's "Disengagement" from the West Bank will bring HAMAS' control over whole Palestine, including Gaza, West Bank and Jordan. Abu Masen is simply afraid from stopping Israel's occupation of the West Bank. I believe, that the main mistake, performed by Oslo initiators, was putting a wagon before a horse, namely withdrawing IDF before desired peace was achieved. This mistake was copied by Gaza "disengagement".

Regarding what is Palestinian state, I must recall, that due to worldwide Palestine support and money infusion, Palestine is more independent NOW, than the Jewish state. Israel, not Palestine is prosecuted (and persecuted) by the UN. Why? Because of self-defending from Gaza battering. Israel is ousted from UNESCO. EU started sanctions against Israel, not Palestine, despite of the fact, that Palestinians refuse peace under any conditions. Practically, Palestine is independent despite of israeli occupation, and there's no reason to deny this hard fact.

But because of the Palestinian People refuses peace under any, even the best conditions, and openly proclaims genocide of the Israeli Jews, the Jewish State has legal right (under International Laws) to occupy Palestine, or to perform its blockade. Until peace and guaranties against islamistic genocide will given, Israel is forced to occupy Palestine, with or without recognition of the Palestinian State. That's the essence of My position. The Israeli people have learned this position from their own long and bitter experience. If Israeli Left will assign such position, it may win elections.

Edited October 26, 2017 by houseknight