Political Algorithms - The Capitalist Versus The Socialist

[montgomery]

About all I can say on this topic, or even care to say, is that US style greedy capitalism is failing. Unfortunately, a very strong sense of patriotism has been installed in the minds of the people that prevents them from bring about change. So far at least. 

 

Bernie Sanders represented a close call! So did Trump but he lied and took that country in the opposite direction.

[Virtual]

For me, it comes down to a series of rhetorical questions I have to ask myself. Do I want to live in a country with a constitution that is based on individual liberties, and tells me that my rights as an autonomous individual are self-evident, and that the government may not infringe on them or I have the right to defend myself against said government? Or do I want to live in a country wherein the government assumes control of wealth and resources (and ultimately my life), and stifles individual freedom? I’ll choose the former. America’s founders instilled a unique concept among western nations into our constitution that stresses the primacy of the individual. They believed that the government does not give us our rights. Our rights are self-evident and unalienable. The government is there to PROTECT our rights, not grant or revoke them, and has no right to assume control over our lives in any way. I prefer this philosophy. As far as I can tell, socialism seems to be incompatible with this idea. I’m talking here a about true socialism wherein the government does away with the free-market-driven economy, and with it, individual freedom. You can’t really have true freedom under socialism. It puts the lives and fate of the people into the hands of the bureaucrats and demagogues who tend to run our government. They get to turn the dials in society and decide how much your ambitions and efforts are worth, and they get to manipulate the outcome based on whatever bullshit metric and ideology they wish. It tends towards a form of cultural-marxism that insists on putting people into classes, treating them not as individuals, but as members of certain groups judged by their historical track record of oppression or oppressing. They then use this ideology to decide for you where your wealth and resources should be redistributed and reallocated, and who deserves to be stolen from and who deserves to recieve it. Then there’s no breaking out of it.

 

I think the evidence is pretty clear that market-driven economies with sensible regulations and modest taxes to help those in need create the most prosperous societies, and that true socialism inevitably leads to ruin.

[montgomery]

For me, it comes down to a series of rhetorical questions I have to ask myself. Do I want to live in a country with a constitution that is based on individual liberties, and tells me that my rights as an autonomous individual are self-evident, and that the government may not infringe on them or I have the right to defend myself against said government? Or do I want to live in a country wherein the government assumes control of wealth and resources (and ultimately my life), and stifles individual freedom? I’ll choose the former. America’s founders instilled a unique concept among western nations into our constitution that stresses the primacy of the individual. They believed that the government does not give us our rights. Our rights are self-evident and unalienable. The government is there to PROTECT our rights, not grant or revoke them, and has no right to assume control over our lives in any way. I prefer this philosophy. As far as I can tell, socialism seems to be incompatible with this idea. I’m talking here a about true socialism wherein the government does away with the free-market-driven economy, and with it, individual freedom. You can’t really have true freedom under socialism. It puts the lives and fate of the people into the hands of the bureaucrats and demagogues who tend to run our government. They get to turn the dials in society and decide how much your ambitions and efforts are worth, and they get to manipulate the outcome based on whatever bullshit metric and ideology they wish. It tends towards a form of cultural-marxism that insists on putting people into classes, treating them not as individuals, but as members of certain groups judged by their historical track record of oppression or oppressing. They then use this ideology to decide for you where your wealth and resources should be redistributed and reallocated, and who deserves to be stolen from and who deserves to recieve it. Then there’s no breaking out of it.

 

I think the evidence is pretty clear that market-driven economies with sensible regulations and modest taxes to help those in need create the most prosperous societies, and that true socialism inevitably leads to ruin.

I've heard so many Americans say just that, hundreds of times. And it always comes across as a protest against government. Now let's start to take a bit of it apart. I won't take it all apart because I know it's never received very well by Americans, but if I ring a bell for you then you might want to ask me to continue.

 

You wrote:

 

You can’t really have true freedom under socialism. It puts the lives and fate of the people into the hands of the bureaucrats and demagogues who tend to run our government.

That which I've bolded gives the whole game away. That's how Americans talk because it's exactly true. That's now how people talk in the world's happiest countries. That sort of talk is inversely proportional to happiness.

 

 

Your country has shortchanged you and taken away your freedom under it's style of capitalism. Americans are suffering because your government has elevated the rights and freedoms of the very wealthy, while leaving the ordinary people with very little. This is the reason the ordinary people chose Trump, out of desperation.

 

In the happiest capitalist countries in the world, they have incorporated a larger amount of socialist policy for which the people are able to have their piece of the pie. They have gained their rights and freedoms which the American system has taken away. And they have attained happiness, not through socialism but through socially responsible capitalism.

 

Americans want their rights and freedoms back and will likely sooner or later rise up and elect a government that will observe the wants and needs of the people. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by montgomery

[OceanBreeze]

For me, it comes down to a series of rhetorical questions I have to ask myself. Do I want to live in a country with a constitution that is based on individual liberties, and tells me that my rights as an autonomous individual are self-evident, and that the government may not infringe on them or I have the right to defend myself against said government? Or do I want to live in a country wherein the government assumes control of wealth and resources (and ultimately my life), and stifles individual freedom? I’ll choose the former. America’s founders instilled a unique concept among western nations into our constitution that stresses the primacy of the individual. They believed that the government does not give us our rights. Our rights are self-evident and unalienable. The government is there to PROTECT our rights, not grant or revoke them, and has no right to assume control over our lives in any way. I prefer this philosophy. As far as I can tell, socialism seems to be incompatible with this idea. I’m talking here a about true socialism wherein the government does away with the free-market-driven economy, and with it, individual freedom. You can’t really have true freedom under socialism. It puts the lives and fate of the people into the hands of the bureaucrats and demagogues who tend to run our government. They get to turn the dials in society and decide how much your ambitions and efforts are worth, and they get to manipulate the outcome based on whatever bullshit metric and ideology they wish. It tends towards a form of cultural-marxism that insists on putting people into classes, treating them not as individuals, but as members of certain groups judged by their historical track record of oppression or oppressing. They then use this ideology to decide for you where your wealth and resources should be redistributed and reallocated, and who deserves to be stolen from and who deserves to recieve it. Then there’s no breaking out of it.

 

I think the evidence is pretty clear that market-driven economies with sensible regulations and modest taxes to help those in need create the most prosperous societies, and that true socialism inevitably leads to ruin.

 

 

Nice post! I wish I could give it more than one "like".

[OceanBreeze]

I've heard so many Americans say just that, hundreds of times. And it always comes across as a protest against government. Now let's start to take a bit of it apart. I won't take it all apart because I know it's never received very well by Americans, but if I ring a bell for you then you might want to ask me to continue.

 

You wrote:

 

That which I've bolded gives the whole game away. That's how Americans talk because it's exactly true. That's now how people talk in the world's happiest countries. That sort of talk is inversely proportional to happiness.

 

 

Your country has shortchanged you and taken away your freedom under it's style of capitalism. Americans are suffering because your government has elevated the rights and freedoms of the very wealthy, while leaving the ordinary people with very little. This is the reason the ordinary people chose Trump, out of desperation.

 

In the happiest capitalist countries in the world, they have incorporated a larger amount of socialist policy for which the people are able to have their piece of the pie. They have gained their rights and freedoms which the American system has taken away. And they have attained happiness, not through socialism but through socially responsible capitalism.

 

Americans want their rights and freedoms back and will likely sooner or later rise up and elect a government that will observe the wants and needs of the people. 

 

 

What makes you think you know so much about "Americans"?

[montgomery]

What makes you think you know so much about "Americans"?

Am I wrong? 

Nobody can follow the news and not know a lot about Americans' complaints and grief due to government's failures.

 

I expect that most Americans will continue to defend their country, the flag, the American way, and all the other patriotic bullshit that goes along with it. But I also think that some of my comments will cause the brightest and least propagandized to start doing some thinking.

 

I'm trying to start the process by telling Americans that there is no pure form of capitalism or no pure form of socialism. We have to first break through that ceiling of misunderstanding by Americans.

 

America's capitalism lacks 'social responsibility'. That's what's called socialist policies'. 

 

And fwiw, Trump has taken your country in the opposite direction. He's promoted hate for minorities and that's the opposite of 'social' responsibility.

[Virtual]

I've heard so many Americans say just that, hundreds of times. And it always comes across as a protest against government. Now let's start to take a bit of it apart. I won't take it all apart because I know it's never received very well by Americans, but if I ring a bell for you then you might want to ask me to continue.

 

You wrote:

 

That which I've bolded gives the whole game away. That's how Americans talk because it's exactly true. That's now how people talk in the world's happiest countries. That sort of talk is inversely proportional to happiness.

 

 

Your country has shortchanged you and taken away your freedom under it's style of capitalism. Americans are suffering because your government has elevated the rights and freedoms of the very wealthy, while leaving the ordinary people with very little. This is the reason the ordinary people chose Trump, out of desperation.

 

In the happiest capitalist countries in the world, they have incorporated a larger amount of socialist policy for which the people are able to have their piece of the pie. They have gained their rights and freedoms which the American system has taken away. And they have attained happiness, not through socialism but through socially responsible capitalism.

 

Americans want their rights and freedoms back and will likely sooner or later rise up and elect a government that will observe the wants and needs of the people.

I agree on pretty much everything you said. I’m taking the two polar extremes and making a choice. I choose the free market and the hierarchy. Under the hierarchy, my disadvantages might be more easily exploited, but to me that is better than having my life systematically predetermined by a government who knows jack sh*t about me and judges me by my group identity rather than my individual experience and qualities. At least I have my own personal agency and autonomy, my labor belongs to me, my rights are the same on paper as everyone else’s, and my worth is not determined by what group or category the ruling class wants to put me in, but by my own personal responsibility and accountability. I am free to own my own property and benefit from my own ambitions and efforts, and nobody can take it away. I agree that the capitalist hierarchy needs some sensible regulation, but that’s not socialism. The economy is still market-driven. Just look back at the industrial revolution in America, when Rockefeller and Carnegie were hitting the ground running creating the steel industry and The transcontinental railroads and all the industry that catapolted America to the forefront of technological and economic superiority, and ask yourself, would any of that have happened in such a swift and innovative way under socialism? Not a snowball’s chance in hell it would have. And finally, notwithstanding the cronyism and greed produced by the hierarchy and the privileged individuals who benefit from it, if I work harder and make smarter life decisions than my neighbor, I deserve to make more and live more prosperously than them. We can debate about the details of regulations and where to draw the line, but that’s generally my position. Edited February 14, 2019 by Virtual

[montgomery]

I agree on pretty much everything you said. I’m taking the two polar extremes and making a choice. I choose the free market and the hierarchy. Under the hierarchy, my disadvantages might be more easily exploited, but to me that is better than having my life systematically predetermined by a government who knows jack sh*t about me and judges me by my group identity rather than my individual experience and qualities. At least I have my own personal agency and autonomy, my labor belongs to me, my rights are the same on paper as everyone else’s, and my worth is not determined by what group or category the ruling class wants to put me in, but by my own personal responsibility and accountability. I am free to own my own property and benefit from my own ambitions and efforts, and nobody can take it away. I agree that the capitalist hierarchy needs some sensible regulation, but that’s not socialism. The economy is still market-driven. Just look back at the industrial revolution in America, when Rockefeller and Carnegie were hitting the ground running creating the steel industry and The transcontinental railroads and all the industry that catapolted America to the forefront of technological and economic superiority, and ask yourself, would any of that have happened in such a swift and innovative way under socialism? Not a snowball’s chance in hell it would have. And finally, notwithstanding the cronyism and greed produced by the hierarchy and the privileged individuals who benefit from it, if I work harder and make smarter life decisions than my neighbor, I deserve to make more and live more prosperously than them. We can debate about the details of regulations and where to draw the line, but that’s generally my position.

Thank you for your reply but if we can't agree that the two polar extremes don't even exist in reality in any country, we have no basis for continuing the conversation. 

 

I will say though that America's capitalist system was very successful in the past. But now the American system is failing. Greed of the 1 or 2% cannot be tolerated in the 21st. century and a very competitive world market. China is quickly overtaking the US. America must do everything in it's power to allow the lives of their masses to be elevated as much as is possible, and that is being denied by huge income inequality and greed. 

 

Meanwhile China is raising hundreds of millions up out of poverty. 

 

I've tried to talk specifics with Americans but they insist on dwelling on the generalities that are the non-existent ideal. Americans have had their rights and freedoms stolen from them and their failed health care system is a good readily available example of how that's happened. That's only one in several examples.

 

The title of this thread ignores the truth of the matter. By now you should be able to understand the reason why.

 

Here's something for you: I as a Canadian have rights and freedoms that Americans don't have. Americans have less rights and freedoms than Canadians, or for that matter, all of the happiest countries in the world.

 

Take that as your challenge to rebut, not mine. But if you fail then I'll take it on.

Edited February 14, 2019 by montgomery

[Virtual]

Thank you for your reply but if we can't agree that the two polar extremes don't even exist in reality in any country, we have no basis for continuing the conversation.

 

I will say though that America's capitalist system was very successful in the past. But now the American system is failing. Greed of the 1 or 2% cannot be tolerated in the 21st. century and a very competitive world market. China is quickly overtaking the US. America must do everything in it's power to allow the lives of their masses to be elevated as much as is possible, and that is being denied by huge income inequality and greed.

 

Meanwhile China is raising hundreds of millions up out of poverty.

 

I've tried to talk specifics with Americans but they insist on dwelling on the generalities that are the non-existent ideal. Americans have had their rights and freedoms stolen from them and their failed health care system is a good readily available example of how that's happened. That's only one in several examples.

 

The title of this thread ignores the truth of the matter. By now you should be able to understand the reason why.

 

Here's something for you: I as a Canadian have rights and freedoms that Americans don't have. Americans have less rights and freedoms than Canadians, or for that matter, all of the happiest countries in the world.

 

Take that as your challenge to rebut, not mine. But if you fail then I'll take it on.

I honestly think you and I are agreeing more than you might think. You are actually very correct about a lot of your concerns, particularly about the very wealthy 1% of billionaires who f*ck over everyone else. You are also correct about China lifting people out of poverty. That’s because they opened up their free market a bit and started actually generating some wealth rather than redistruting wealth that wasn’t there. You could sort of liken it to thermodynamics, where the economy is the system, and the free-market is the energy source, and socialism is a closed system. If there is no one at the top of the hierarchy creating the wealth, then the system will descend into entropy. Things don’t get done, and prosperity doesn’t get created when free competition and incentive is systematically removed. That’s why I said that we must have a discussion about what the regulations should be, and where the happy medium is. But one thing is for sure, you cannot remove the hierarchy and the incentive. Societies that do that die. There’s no way around it. You must allow the smart, innovative, high-producing individuals in society seek their ends and produce the wealth and innovations for the society in a free and competitive environment. You cannot close down the market, redistribute the wealth, and take away the energy source. It is sure to fail that way.

 

Edit: As far as Canadians having more rights and freedoms than Americans, I’m not sure where you get that. The only freedoms we Americans lack is due to the fact that 75% of what our federal government does is unconstitutional.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Virtual

[montgomery]

I honestly think you and I are agreeing more than you might think. You are actually very correct about a lot of your concerns, particularly about the very wealthy 1% of billionaires who f*ck over everyone else. You are also correct about China lifting people out of poverty. That’s because they opened up their free market a bit and started actually generating some wealth rather than redistruting wealth that wasn’t there. You could sort of liken it to thermodynamics, where the economy is the system, and the free-market is the energy source, and socialism is a closed system. If there is no one at the top of the hierarchy creating the wealth, then the system will descend into entropy. Things don’t get done, and prosperity doesn’t get created when free competition and incentive is systematically removed. That’s why I said that we must have a discussion about what the regulations should be, and where the happy medium is. But one thing is for sure, you cannot remove the hierarchy and the incentive. Societies that do that die. There’s no way around it. You must allow the smart, innovative, high-producing individuals in society seek their ends and produce the wealth and innovations for the society in a free and competitive environment. You cannot close down the market, redistribute the wealth, and take away the energy source. It is sure to fail that way.

 

 

Yes, we do agree on mostly everything and that includes the fact that no pure socialist or capitalist system actually exists. And I agree completely that capitalism is the way forward. 

 

 

 

Edit: As far as Canadians having more rights and freedoms than Americans, I’m not sure where you get that. The only freedoms we Americans lack is due to the fact that 75% of what our federal government does is unconstitutional.

 

Bingo! There you have it! Your constitutional ideal is 75% ignored and that's resulted in the loss of your rights and freedoms. Or in other words, greedy capitalism is the cause of the rejection of your constitutional rights and freedoms.

 

Now all that's missing is for you to tell me how the government has managed to do that? Then when you do, we can examine how the happiest countries in the world have prevented their governments from hijacking their rights and freedoms. 

[Virtual]

Yes, we do agree on mostly everything and that includes the fact that no pure socialist or capitalist system actually exists. And I agree completely that capitalism is the way forward.

 

 

Bingo! There you have it! Your constitutional ideal is 75% ignored and that's resulted in the loss of your rights and freedoms. Or in other words, greedy capitalism is the cause of the rejection of your constitutional rights and freedoms.

 

Now all that's missing is for you to tell me how the government has managed to do that? Then when you do, we can examine how the happiest countries in the world have prevented their governments from hijacking their rights and freedoms.

Just to be clear, I don’t think the OP asked us to debate whether or not the two extremes exist, but rather what is the best “algorithm”, to use the OPs words. I suppose he wants us to debate the concepts.

 

Other than that, good deal. Productive conversation. Cheers from America!

[montgomery]

Just to be clear, I don’t think the OP asked us to debate whether or not the two extremes exist, but rather what is the best “algorithm”, to use the OPs words. I suppose he wants us to debate the concepts.

 

Other than that, good deal. Productive conversation. Cheers from America!

Oh, go ahead and debate whatever you think is applicable. But don't suggest that we should exclude the debate on whether the two extremes exist or not, because that's allowing Trump and his ilk  to avoid the facts. He skewed the facts when he said America would never be socialist and his low intelligence followers bought right into it.

 

 

It's the same old, same old, with the establishment always trying to make the people believe there's a commie under every bed. I think most of the people on this forum are better than that.

 

Capitalism is the answer and it's always been so, for both Canada and the US. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by montgomery

[montgomery]

Exchemist, that is why I am not an anti-capitalist just against its current implementation without any ingrained ethics.

Bravo! 

Now prove it with some examples. 9 chances out of 10 they are going to have to be examples of how the US differs from the happiest countries in the world.

[Virtual]

Oh, go ahead and debate whatever you think is applicable. But don't suggest that we should exclude the debate on whether the two extremes exist or not, because that's allowing Trump and his ilk to avoid the facts. He skewed the facts when he said America would never be socialist and his low intelligence followers bought right into it.

 

 

It's the same old, same old, with the establishment always trying to make the people believe there's a commie under every bed. I think most of the people on this forum are better than that.

 

Capitalism is the answer and it's always been so, for both Canada and the US.

This topic encompasses just about everything in life if you go far enough down the rabit hole. That’s why I say social and economic politics are inextricably linked. And it just so happens that world events and societies are so complex that one cannot completely vote on all of their principles all the time. You have to look further ahead and see the bigger picture, and imagine the aftermath of the implementation of any given policy. That’s why I think rhetorical exercises and thought experiments are so useful, because not every argument or philosophy can be completely dealt with in purely syllogistic or axiomatic terms.

 

Also, I know you’re not from America, so I’m not going to tell you what is best for your country or your community, but please believe me when I say that the things you’ve said about Americans and about Trump are completely off point. With all due respect, my friend, you haven’t the slightest idea what you’re talking about when it comes to Americans or the POTUS. I promise you that.

 

Many of Trumps supporters are not the blind idiots they are painted as. They [the American public and working class] are simply tired of being the lowest of our government’s priorities. They finally have a president who acknowledges them and fights for them after decades of being undermined while our elected officials pursue social justice agendas. Trump is trying to serve their interests - i.e. by trying to secure our border and trying to rid our immigration system from the corruption that has been laden within it for so long, by trying to create policies that stop the effects of immigration and unfair trade from stealing our jobs and lowering our wages, and ultimately trying to reinstill some of the more classical conservative principles that used to make our society and economy prosporous, and give purpose and dignity into the lives of the people. These aren’t idealistic tropes like you’ve described them. They are very obvious goods that benefit societies.

 

We should have figured out by now that the welfare state, while mostly well-meaning, does not solve the core issue. It only allows communities to sink further into their depravity. What does solve the issue is removing the safety net and holding individuals accountable for their own lives and decisions. Unfortunately, we have had a string of elected officials who have fed into this victimhood narrative, have treated minorities like children who can’t help themselves, and have placed the blame and responsibility at the feet of the productive citizens. Trump is our breath of fresh air, because he actually sees what is wrong with this picture. He sees what we see.

[montgomery]

Virtual said:

 

Many of Trumps supporters are not the blind idiots they are painted as. They [the American public and working class] are simply tired of being the lowest of our government’s priorities.

 

That makes sense! But the idea that Trump is going to come up with solutions to fix it, is wrong. 

 

Conservatives, or the political right are known for being conservative on spending. Trump has increased spending the the point of ridiculous which even a liberal like me couldn't applaud. Liberals believe that government spending is good because government basically needs to take care of the people's needs. 

 

Liberals get a free ride on that attribute because cutting taxes and bringing about social change is going to be gleefully accepted by the people. But even liberals have to eventually draw a line and admit that huge irrational spending has a cost that the piper will eventually need to pay. But Trump rides the wave of popularity because he's increased the US debt quicker than any other president in history. And that really pays dividends on popularity.

 

What has happened to the minds of conservatives who once knew that cutting taxes comes with a cost.

 

And to conclude, the cutting of taxes on the ordinary people amounts to next to nothing. An example I heard on the nes last night was of a woman seeing an income increas of $1.50 a week! 

 

They may not be blind idiots but they're suckers for a buck or two in their pockets. 

 

https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/the-19-trillion-red-flag-americans-have-a-debt-problem-20190213-p50xe5.html

 

Get a grip conservative. Trump's turning you all into spend crazy lefties! 

 

 

 

...............are simply tired of being the lowest of our government’s priorities.

 

Now you've got it! 

Edited February 15, 2019 by montgomery

[Virtual]

Liberals believe that government spending is good because government basically needs to take care of the people's needs.

I’m sorry, but this is just fundamentally wrong. It’s a completely flawed mindset just right from the beginning. It’s ***-backwards actually. The government’s job is NOT to take care of the needs of its people, at least not in the sense of ensuring equity or access to commodities, wealth, and resources. The only “needs” that it’s the government’s job to take care of is protecting the people’s rights under the constitution (i.e. providing a strong military and police force to defend our freedom of speech and expression, and never infringing on our 2nd amendment rights to defend ourselves). Other than that, it’s not the job of the government or anyone else to ensure that someone lives a prosperous life. That is the individual’s responsibility. The best thing the government can do in most cases is back off. Our constitution is designed to allow the people to govern themselves. The fact that there are cronies and oligarchs at the top who exploit the system does not take away my constitutional rights. It just means that they are mightier than me. I can still exercise my freedom to complete with them, but there’s no guarantee I’ll succeed. But that’s not the same as having my rights systematically stifled by government.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Virtual

[HouseKnight1]

 

The Capitalist is of the opinion that capitalism gives the maximum benefit to the minimum number of people (based on merit).

B(max) ∝ P(min)

 

The Socialist is of the opinion that socialism gives the maximum benefit to the maximum number of people. (egalitarian and equitable).

B(max) ∝ P(max)

 

Which is the better algorithm ? 

 

NOW, LET'S RETURN TO THE GROUND FLOOR: THE CAPITALIST AND THE SOCIALIST "ELITES" SEEK MAXIMUM BENEFIT FOR THEMSELVES. BOTH USE CORRUPTION TO BUY MEDIA, POLITICIANS, JUDGES, ARMY AND OFFICIALS.

Edited February 15, 2019 by HouseKnight1