Urantia Book - Who Could've Hoaxed This?

[Moontanman]

Thanks for the props...unfortunately this hasn't stopped me from getting neg reps from some people.

 

I think this thread has drifted off topic somewhat. Rather than going back and forth with arguments about science, we should be talking about the authorship of the UB. I haven't seen any evidence that Sadler or a group of his authored the papers, but I'd like to explore the idea of human authorship. For those who presuppose this, I have a question:

 

Keeping in mind the enormous challenge this presented, what do you think would motivate a human or group of humans to write the UB?

 

The same motivations as any other religious text, influence, fame, power, control, money, simple desire to see how much BS people will believe. Look at all religious texts, the Book of Mormon, Scientology, the bible (old and new and all the various interpretations), the Koran, the list goes on and on with no foreseeable end. All of them have in common a desire to control what others do or think. sometimes the idea starts out noble but it always degrades into power, control and money eventually.

[Caligastia]

The same motivations as any other religious text, influence, fame, power, control, money, simple desire to see how much BS people will believe. Look at all religious texts, the Book of Mormon, Scientology, the bible (old and new and all the various interpretations), the Koran, the list goes on and on with no foreseeable end. All of them have in common a desire to control what others do or think. sometimes the idea starts out noble but it always degrades into power, control and money eventually.

 

 

Are the supposed human authors of the UB famous? Nope, in fact no human has stepped forward to claim authorship. If such an egoistic motive drove these hypothetical human authors, then surely they would have put more effort into promoting their involvement! As it stands, the only honest answer a disinterested 3rd party could give to the question of authorship is "I don't know".

 

As for influence, power, and control - we can't point to any one person or group of persons who holds sway over UB readers.

 

Money? If the supposed human authors were motivated by money, then finding them should be a simple matter of "following the money". If we do this, all we find is a couple of small groups who spend the money on publishing more copies of the book. No cadillac-driving, mansion-building cult leaders here...

 

And how do you reconcile the content of the book with an author motivated by any of these things? Can someone who is motivated by power, money or fame write a beautiful literary work that consistently emphasizes loving service?

[Moontanman]

Are the supposed human authors of the UB famous? Nope, in fact no human has stepped forward to claim authorship. If such an egoistic motive drove these hypothetical human authors, then surely they would have put more effort into promoting their involvement! As it stands, the only honest answer a disinterested 3rd party could give to the question of authorship is "I don't know".

 

As for influence, power, and control - we can't point to any one person or group of persons who holds sway over UB readers.

 

Money? If the supposed human authors were motivated by money, then finding them should be a simple matter of "following the money". If we do this, all we find is a couple of small groups who spend the money on publishing more copies of the book. No cadillac-driving, mansion-building cult leaders here...

 

And how do you reconcile the content of the book with an author motivated by any of these things? Can someone who is motivated by power, money or fame write a beautiful literary work that consistently emphasizes loving service?

 

You missed my point completely, humans do things with motivations that can range over a broad range of reasons, Some of which can only make sense to the person who does it. I know that some people seem to using the urinantia book as a way to show the importance of themselves and lord their special sight over others who are too dense to see the truth of the book. The motivations of who or whom ever wrote the book of urinantia do not have to coincide with the people who follow it nor does the motivations of all the followers need to be the same.

[Galapagos]

I think this thread has drifted off topic somewhat. Rather than going back and forth with arguments about science, we should be talking about the authorship of the UB. I haven't seen any evidence that Sadler or a group of his authored the papers, but I'd like to explore the idea of human authorship.

 

The fact that the science is all wrong is very obvious evidence that the book wasn't authored by anything other than mistaken human beings. You have in fact seen plenty of evidence for this, but have apparently failed to appropriately accept any of it.

 

For those who presuppose this, I have a question:

Nobody needs to presuppose that the book was authored by people, given the information in this thread, it is a fact readily discernible without any leaps of faith. It seems very intellectually dishonest for you to imply that a) no evidence for human authorship has been presented and :weather_snowing: discovering the blatant truth of the UB's human authorship requires some presupposition, when in fact belief that it was not authored by humans requires a gigantic leap of faith.

[modest]

The few pages of the book I've read (< 20) appear to me to have been written by the same person. At the very least, those pages appear rewritten or edited by the same person. The tone and phrases did not vary significantly enough to indicate more than one author such as is normally evident for instance in the Bible opposed to the book of Mormon.

 

I don't mean to use that observation to argue anything specific about the motivations of the authorship - Just throwin' it out there.

 

~modest

[Caligastia]

You missed my point completely, humans do things with motivations that can range over a broad range of reasons, Some of which can only make sense to the person who does it.

I know that some people seem to using the urinantia book as a way to show the importance of themselves and lord their special sight over others who are too dense to see the truth of the book.

 

Sadly, I have to agree. Being a UB reader does not mean an end to human egoism.

 

The motivations of who or whom ever wrote the book of urinantia do not have to coincide with the people who follow it nor does the motivations of all the followers need to be the same.

 

Certainly not, but don't you think an author with motivations such as those you have described would be limited in certain ways?

[Moontanman]

Sadly, I have to agree. Being a UB reader does not mean an end to human egoism.

 

 

 

Certainly not, but don't you think an author with motivations such as those you have described would be limited in certain ways?

 

Motivations do not limit the ability of a person to hoax or even to be creative. If the book of urinantia can be used to do some good as some have claimed then great do it, but don't try to convince every one it's the truth as told by angels or what ever when there is ample evidence it is just a fantasy and not a very good fantasy at that. Why do all religions have to claim to have the keys to the universe before they can simply be a group of people who want to dedicate their lives to helping people. why does the all knowing bull **** have to figure in somewhere?

[Caligastia]

The fact that the science is all wrong is very obvious evidence that the book wasn't authored by anything other than mistaken human beings. You have in fact seen plenty of evidence for this, but have apparently failed to appropriately accept any of it.

 

The science is not "all wrong", it just conflicts with our current understanding in certain aspects, and I don't see the recognition of the limited nature of humankind and the changing nature of scientific conclusions as a failure on my part. I can see that this offends you greatly though.

 

Nobody needs to presuppose that the book was authored by people, given the information in this thread, it is a fact readily discernible without any leaps of faith. It seems very intellectually dishonest for you to imply that a) no evidence for human authorship has been presented and ;) discovering the blatant truth of the UB's human authorship requires some presupposition, when in fact belief that it was not authored by humans requires a gigantic leap of faith.

 

I think it requires a gigantic leap of faith to believe that modern science has all the answers to the scientific topics touched on by the UB. I'm sure this will only serve to irritate you further, but I feel compelled to give you an honest answer. To me, the science in the UB is just an interesting aside - the overall cosmology is the really incredible and fascinating thing. There's really nothing that can overshadow the beauty of that (in my mind) so perhaps it's fruitless for you and I to discuss this further - I don't like to see you aggravated.

[Caligastia]

Motivations do not limit the ability of a person to hoax or even to be creative. If the book of urinantia can be used to do some good as some have claimed then great do it, but don't try to convince every one it's the truth as told by angels or what ever when there is ample evidence it is just a fantasy and not a very good fantasy at that. Why do all religions have to claim to have the keys to the universe before they can simply be a group of people who want to dedicate their lives to helping people. why does the all knowing bull **** have to figure in somewhere?

 

I understand your agitation, as I feel the same way when I encounter people who exhibit this kind of attitude. However, you have an erroneous concept of the content of the Urantia Book. It does not claim to be "all knowing" - in several parts it humbly recognizes its limitations, and urges humility on the part of the reader. It's understandable that your experience with evangelistic types may have soured your attitude towards religious thought in general though.

 

I'm not here to beat people over the head with "truth from angels", I just wanted to add my opinions and experience regarding the UB to these pre-existing threads.

[Caligastia]

Motivations do not limit the ability of a person to hoax or even to be creative.

 

 

Forgot to respond to this part. Don't you think an egomaniac might have some difficulty in composing inspiring words of brotherhood, humility and service?

[Moontanman]

Forgot to respond to this part. Don't you think an egomaniac might have some difficulty in composing inspiring words of brotherhood, humility and service?

 

Of course, an egomaniac is capable of doing what ever it is that inflates his ego. Just because he's an egomaniac doesn't mean he's evil it just means he's full of his own needs.

[Michaelangelica]

Has anyone had alook at what Wiki says on this bizarre topic?

Authorship

William S. Sadler, MD

William S. Sadler, MD

 

The exact circumstances of the origin of The Urantia Book are unknown. The book and its publishers do not name a human author, but instead it is written as if directly presented by numerous celestial beings appointed to the task of providing an "epochal" spiritual revelation to humankind. For each paper, either a name, or an order of celestial being, or a group of beings is credited as its author.[7][8][9]

 

As early as 1911, William S. Sadler and his wife Lena Sadler, physicians in Chicago and well known in the community, were approached by a neighbor who was concerned that she would occasionally find her husband in a deep sleep and breathing abnormally.[7][2] She reported that she was unable to wake him at these times. The Sadlers came to observe the episodes, and over time, the individual produced verbal communications that claimed to be from "student visitor" spiritual beings.[2] This changed in early 1925 with a "voluminous handwritten document", which from then on became the regular method of purported communication.[2] The Sadlers were both respected physicians, and William Sadler was a debunker of paranormal claims, who is portrayed as not believing in the supernatural. In 1929, he published a book The Mind at Mischief in which he explained fraudulent methods of mediums and how self-deception leads to psychic claims. He wrote in an appendix that there were two cases that he had not explained to his satisfaction.[10]

 

The other exception has to do with a rather peculiar case of psychic phenomena, one which I find myself unable to classify, and which I would like very much to narrate more fully; I cannot do so here, however, because of a promise which I feel under obligation to keep sacredly. In other words, I have promised not to publish this case during the lifetime of the individual. I hope sometime to secure a modification of that promise and be able to report this case more fully because of its interesting features. I was brought in contact with it, in the summer of 1911, and I have had it under my observation more or less ever since, having been present at probably 250 of the night sessions, many of which have been attended by a stenographer who made voluminous notes.

 

A thorough study of this case has convinced me that it is not one of ordinary trance. While the sleep seems to be quite of a natural order, it is very profound, and so far we have never been able to awaken the subject when in this state; but the body is never rigid, and the heart action is never modified, though respiration is sometimes markedly interfered with. This man is utterly unconscious, wholly oblivious to what takes place, and unless told about it subsequently, never knows that he has been used as a sort of clearing house for the coming and going of alleged extra-planetary personalities. In fact, he is more or less indifferent to the whole proceeding, and shows a surprising lack of interest in these affairs as they occur from time to time.

 

Eighteen years of study and careful investigation have failed to reveal the psychic origin of these messages. I find myself at the present time just where I was when I started. Psychoanalysis, hypnotism, intensive comparison, fail to show that the written or spoken messages of this individual have origin in his own mind. Much of the material secured through this subject is quite contrary to his habits of thought, to the way in which he has been taught, and to his entire philosophy. In fact, of much that we have secured, we have failed to find anything of its nature in existence. Its philosophic content is quite new, and we are unable to find where very much of it has ever found human expression.

 

In 1924, a group of Sadler's friends, former patients, and colleagues began meeting for Sunday intellectual discussions, but became interested in the strange communications when Sadler mentioned the case and read samples at their request. Shortly afterwards, a communication reportedly was received that this group would be allowed to devise questions and that answers would be given by celestial beings through the "contact personality".

 

Sadler presented this development to the group, and they generated hundreds of questions without full seriousness, but their claim is that it resulted in the appearance of answers in the form of fully written papers. They became more impressed with the quality of the answers and continued to ask questions, until all papers now collected together as The Urantia Book were obtained. The group was known as the Forum. A smaller group of five individuals called the Contact Commission, including the Sadlers, was responsible for gathering the questions from the Forum, acting as the custodians of the handwritten manuscripts that were presented as answers, and arranging for proofreading and typing of the material.[7]

 

The Sadlers and others involved, now all deceased, claimed[11] that the papers of the book were physically materialized from 1925 until 1935 in a way that was not understood even by them, with the first three parts being completed in 1934 and the fourth in 1935. The last Forum gathering was in 1942. Also documented are methods of reception that Sadler refuted as the way the papers were received.[8]

 

After all of the written material was received in 1935, an additional period of time supposedly took place where requests for clarifications resulted in revisions. Sadler and his son William (Bill) Sadler, Jr. at one point wrote a draft introduction and were told that they could not add their introduction because "A city can not be lit by a candle."[12] The Foreword was then "received." Bill Sadler is noted to have composed the table of contents that is published with the book.

 

The communications purportedly continued for another two decades while members of the Forum studied the book in depth, and according to Sadler and others, permission to publish it was given to them in 1955. The Urantia Foundation was formed in 1950 as a tax-exempt educational society in Illinois,[13] and through privately raised funds, the book was published under international copyright on October 12, 1955.

 

Only the members of the Contact Commission witnessed the activities of the sleeping subject, and only they knew his identity.[2] The individual is claimed to have been kept anonymous in order to prevent undesirable future veneration or reverence for him. Martin Gardner states that a more plausible explanation concerning the origin of the book compared to celestial beings is that the Contact Commission, particularly William Sadler, was responsible. Gardner's conclusion is that a man named Wilfred Kellogg was the sleeping subject and authored the work from his subconscious mind, with William Sadler subsequently editing and authoring parts.[7] A statistical analysis using the Mosteller and Wallace methods of stylometry indicates at least nine authors were involved, and by comparatively analyzing the book against Sadler's The Mind at Mischief, does not indicate authorship or extensive editing by Sadler, without ruling out the possibility of limited edits.[2]

So I'm glad we've resolved that problem.

The answers are (choose your favourite)

1 Humans

2 celestial beings

3 celestial beings + humans

 

 

Negative rep usually comes from posts that attack the author personally rather than his/her arguments

 

The motivation for writing this nonsense would be the same as all other "holy" books from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, The Bible, the Koran Ancient Egyptian religious texts, Buddhist scrolls etc-

 

i.e. too many magic mushrooms (& and other ways of inducing 'visions' e.g. pain, sensory-deprivation, fasting, chanting, spinning, madness), too much superstition, too much time and not enough reality- like getting your own food and shelter for the day.

[Turtle]

Has anyone had alook at what Wiki says on this bizarre topic?

...The Sadlers and others involved, now all deceased, claimed[11] that the papers of the book were physically materialized from 1925 until 1935 in a way that was not understood even by them, with the first three parts being completed in 1934 and the fourth in 1935. The last Forum gathering was in 1942. Also documented are methods of reception that Sadler refuted as the way the papers were received.[8]...

 

...The motivation for writing this nonsense would be the same as all other "holy" books from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, The Bible, the Koran Ancient Egyptian religious texts, Buddhist scrolls etc-

 

Good find Miguel, however I disagree on the motivation. The motivation is genetic cleansing and getting back to the intended Violet (say White) Master Race and stopping the mongrels (say not-white) from further breeding. One of the earlier sources offered in defense of some of the science in the book invoked the Nazi's*, and unsure of when the Nazi party started I had a look at Wiki myself. Guess what? The dates match right up with Sadler & his cohorts (who were they by the by?).

The Nazi Party, officially: National Socialist German Workers' Party, (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (help·info), abbreviated NSDAP), was a political party in Germany between 1919 and 1945. It was known as the German Workers' Party (DAP) before the name was changed in 1920. ...

Nazi Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Moreover, in post #294 , Majestron gives testimony that Sadler went to Europe in 1911. >>

...After passing the required examination, he went to Europe (circa 1911) and studied with Freud in Vienna for almost a year. ... He[sadler] told Dr. Sprunger that he was a member of Freud's "fair-haired boys ' club" along with Jung and Adler, meeting weekly with Freud for informal debates.

What did McMenamin know that prompted him to associate the writing with Nazis?

 

I finally had to write the Foundation & tell them to quit sending me papers, newsletters, and appeals for money about a decade ago, but the translation they were working on the the time was Norwegian. I haven't checked lately, but the translating into other languages and spreading of this writing worldwide goes on. Time to follow the money and see who in Chicago is (and was) sitting on the board of Urantia Foundation at 533 Diversey.

 

 

*from post #233:

The anonymous authors responsible for the critical part of section 3 evidently possessed a high level of geological training' date=' and while writing in the 1930s must have known of Wegener’s ideas on continental drift. Perhaps he or she was, or had contact with, an expatriate from Nazi Germany.

[Moontanman]

And I thought this group was just another group of people trying to use BS as a crutch to gain prestige and power, now I see it as real evil. Does this sort of basic evil just crop up with no help or do these people really plan this far ahead to pollute our now with evil from the past? I wonder if the university campus they held their rally on recently was aware of this link to racism and the Nazi's. It really frightens me to think that such things as eugenics and cleansing the earth of inferior races could have such a foot hold in our civilization and us not recognize it as what it is. I think it is really disturbing that this stuff can go on in the guise of a religious group that claims it is just here to help out our fellow man. Does evil really plan far ahead to try and crop up after it has thought to have been destroyed? Do these tendrils of evil lie in wait through out society waiting to blossom back after the evil has been forgotten? I was almost ready to believe they were misguided in their science but other wise they might actually be a helpful group. :evil::evil:

[Turtle]

And I thought this group was just another group of people trying to use BS as a crutch to gain prestige and power, now I see it as real evil. Does this sort of basic evil just crop up with no help or do these people really plan this far ahead to pollute our now with evil from the past? ... :evil::evil:

 

Oh no...they have help. The best racist help available at the time, and right now I dare say. I just Googled "Was Freud racist?" and immediately found that debated somewhat, but what is not debated is the racism of Jung. Who'ng? Jung! You know...one of the 'fair-haired boys' Sadler danced with in Vienna. When is a cigar not a cigar? Well, you know. Check this: >>

 

The decade-old controversy over C.G. Jung's behavior and beliefs in the 1930s has not disappeared (see J. Masson's Against therapy' date=' A. Samuels' Politics and psyche and Lingering shadows: Jungians, Freudians, and anti-semitism, ed. by Maidenbaum and Martin). However, so far only minor attempts have been made to contextualize Jung's alleged anti-Semitism and racial psychology in general and evaluate his activity in the background of the cultural milieu of his time.

 

As a result of the analysis of Jung's writings and the relevant historical studies of psychological and scientific racism, the main conclusion of this article is that Jung's racist and Eurocentric ideas both reflect and contradict the prevalent anti-egalitarian ideologies and prejudices of his time, which found expression, for example, in racial classifications (which Jung favored) and pseudo-scientific movements like eugenics (which he implicitly criticized). In this context, Jung's racism is somewhat relativized.

 

Nevertheless, and in spite of his occasional harsh criticism of Western colonization, he remained racist in his idea that the "primitives" in their "unconsciousness" represented the lower stage of evolution. In addition, his sympathy towards things "German" - although he was a Swiss - and his biased attitude towards Jews is relatively well-documented and it prevents discharging him from the accusations of nationalistic psychology and anti-Semitism of some degree. ...[/quote']Jung, anti-Semitism, and racial psychology

 

Things have decidedly gone nastier than even I suspected. :shrug: It's gonna get worse before it gets better; hang on to your stuff.

[Turtle]

I saw a cable History Channel show on Nazi scientists a while back, and they were measuring peoples heads in Asia. A quick search of "Nazis measuring heads in Asia" turns up this book review (and 53,000 other results): >>

...In 1935, the Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler founded an organisation called Ancestral Heritage to uncover the hidden past of an imaginary Aryan race he and his Führer regarded as the noblest and most vital force in human history. That fact that there had never been an Aryan race - a philological category (the Indo-Germanic language group) had been construed into a "people" - was no impediment to someone who also believed Aryans had been unleashed on the world after divine thunderbolts shattered the primordial ice in which they were imprisoned. Himmler was also pretty keen to find gold in the river Isar or a red horse with a white mane, but that need not detain us. ...

Himmler's Crusade: The True Story of the 1938 Nazi Expedition to Tibet - www.phayul.com

[Turtle]

I have mentioned Aleister Crowley as a contemporary of Sadler et al, and this past week I listened to an interesting interview with the author of a new book on him.

Aleister Crowley, Secret Agent Man

Ian spoke with professor of history Dr. Richard Spence about his new book on Aleister Crowley, the "poster boy for 20th century occultism." Spence said Crowley was raised in a well-to-do, fundamentalist Christian home and received a Cambridge education. His most shocking revelation about the infamous occultist, however, involves Crowley's work as an operative for British naval intelligence.

...

Spence also discussed Crowley's secret mission to Canada under the pseudonym 'Clifford,' his association with the German Propaganda Cabinet in New York, as well as his possible involvement in the sinking of the RMS Lusitania (torpedoed by a German U-boat on May 7, 1915). Spence theorized that the passenger ship was sunk as part of a British plot to get the U.S. into the war. ...

COAST TO COAST AM WITH GEORGE NOORY: SHOWS

 

Nothing in particular here, other than putting in context once again how people wrote the darndest things in the early 20th century.