State sponsored crime

[infamous]

 

I need answer regarding this. And don't attack me for this now. Read my questions, and answer them, please.

To coin a phrase we've heard a lot lately; with all do respect, I do consider you to be a reasonable man Boerseun, unlike some others here. You may have missed my post #144, if so please read my thoughts on the matter. Your commentary is always quite intelligent and I do respect your point of view, maybe we can meet in the middle somewhere??

[Boerseun]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Infamous.

 

I have reread your post #144 however, and I can still see no justification for the US presence in Iraq.

 

The premise for the war was held to the world to be the danger of Saddam having either WMD's, or WMD's under development. Neither was found. Matter of fact, the Iraqis opened their facilities to the West before the War, and the inspectors found nothing. Nonetheless, this was held to be the premise, and Uncle Sam sent in the cavalry. This war has nothing to do with the Sunnis and Shiites being at each other's throats. That's purely coincidental.

 

This specific war has nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11, either.

 

I want the truth.

[infamous]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Infamous.

 

I have reread your post #144 however, and I can still see no justification for the US presence in Iraq.

 

 

 

I want the truth.

I'll respectfully disagree about reasons for our presence in Iraq, however, if we could agree to disagree we need now to determine weather we should stay or leave. I personally fear that if we leave now, circumstances in Iraq will only deteriorate. If we stay and help the Iraqi's defeat the insurgents, there might exist a chance to stabilize the nation. What's you take on the situation??

[Fishteacher73]

I think the story now for the Iraqi invasion is to have a beachfront of democracy in the middle east. The solution was to not be involved, as Ipersonally have felt way before it started. There was no real threat of WMD, no Al-Qaeda connections, etc. etc. Butr I digress. The point now is that we are knee deep in it and don't know what to do. The Us is an invading force that represents a culture and country that is contrary to the ideology of many of the locals. The only way to counteract terrorism is to have the general populace also against the terrorists, not siding with them. This is done by providing the populace with a voice (elections) and infrasturcture.

[bumab]

Yes- while my person opinion on the war was... different from the administration, we certainly can't just pull out now. But a specific timetable, say 1 year, would put some responsibility on the Iraqi's and give us a firm date for withdrawl.

[infamous]

I think the story now for the Iraqi invasion is to have a beachfront of democracy in the middle east. The solution was to not be involved, as Ipersonally have felt way before it started. There was no real threat of WMD, no Al-Qaeda connections, etc. etc. Butr I digress. The point now is that we are knee deep in it and don't know what to do. The Us is an invading force that represents a culture and country that is contrary to the ideology of many of the locals. The only way to counteract terrorism is to have the general populace also against the terrorists, not siding with them. This is done by providing the populace with a voice (elections) and infrasturcture.

I couldn't agree with you any more Fishteacher73, this is not the time to retreat , we must find a way to help the average Iraqi citizen improve his condition. Weather it's healthcare in the midst of a violent environment or providing jobs for the jobless, or like you point out, the general infastructure. If we don't pay attention to the average citizen, we will lose this conflict. We cannot afford this and neither can the Iraqi citizen.

[Boerseun]

I'll respectfully disagree about reasons for our presence in Iraq, however, if we could agree to disagree we need now to determine weather we should stay or leave. I personally fear that if we leave now, circumstances in Iraq will only deteriorate. If we stay and help the Iraqi's defeat the insurgents, there might exist a chance to stabilize the nation. What's you take on the situation??

I agree with you there.

 

Seeing as we are confronted with a fait accompli, I suppose we should do what's best in everyone's interests. And withdrawing now, will only make matters worse in Iraq.

 

But that does not change the fact that an invasion was wrong to begin with, bringing us back, once more, to the topic of this thread.

[C1ay]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Infamous.

 

I have reread your post #144 however, and I can still see no justification for the US presence in Iraq.

 

The premise for the war was held to the world to be the danger of Saddam having either WMD's, or WMD's under development. Neither was found. Matter of fact, the Iraqis opened their facilities to the West before the War, and the inspectors found nothing. Nonetheless, this was held to be the premise, and Uncle Sam sent in the cavalry. This war has nothing to do with the Sunnis and Shiites being at each other's throats. That's purely coincidental.

 

This specific war has nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11, either.

 

I want the truth.

You'll probably never get the truth. The real truth is that there was some intelligence to indicate Iraq had or was working on WMD's. Was the intelligence good, bad, made up, twisted, spun, etc.? Who'll ever know? It is known that Iraq imported enough materials to make 3 times more anthrax than it ever claimed to have and there is no record anywhere of what happened to it. Was it destroyed, sent to Syria, buried in the desert? Who knows? At this point the U.S. is there and no one will ever prove that there was or wasn't a justifiable reason for it.

 

I do think the whole thing really highlights another problem though. More than 80 UN resolutions were passed regarding Iraq through the years to no avail. It reminds me out a local get-out-the-vote commercial they've been running on TV here lately. The ad starts by showing a trash bin by the street with a small piece of garbage laying on the ground beside it. People start to gather and complain about who would throw their trash on the ground like that. The crowd gets bigger and just continues to complain. Finally a passerby cutting through the crowd bends over, picks up the trash and tosses it in the bin. The crowd just stands there in awe wondering what they'll do now that they don't have something to complain about. The object of course is that he took action instead of standing around complaining it to death. The UN is the same way, it talks about everything over and over and over but does nothing.

 

The US did something. Many people will disagree over the reasons but it did get one thing done. A ruthless dictator that gases his own people and runs them through shredders has been stopped. The kind of person the UN was founded over has been stopped because the UN failed to do the job it was founded to do. Right or wrong, it's done and now it's time to move on.

 

What should the US do now? Pull out? Pull out tomorrow? How soon will be fast enough to please you? Bear in mind, if the US leaves before the Iraqis are ready to take over on their own you will have another Afghanistan with it's Taliban government hosting Al-Qaeda training camps. Be prepared to act when it happens. If not now, propose some solutions that will allow the US to leave sooner. Whether you realize it or not, the US would be happy if all of our troops could come home tomorrow. At the moment I don't think we can do that. What do you think?

[Fishteacher73]

The US did something. Many people will disagree over the reasons but it did get one thing done. A ruthless dictator that gases his own people and runs them through shredders has been stopped. The kind of person the UN was founded over has been stopped because the UN failed to do the job it was founded to do. Right or wrong, it's done and now it's time to move on.

A dictator thatthe US propped up, supported and funded. Don't forget that good old Rumsfeld gave Saddam a pair of golden spurs to represent our friendship. (Also chemicals and Blackhawk choppers to gas the Kurds with too...)

 

What should the US do now? Pull out? Pull out tomorrow? How soon will be fast enough to please you? Bear in mind, if the US leaves before the Iraqis are ready to take over on their own you will have another Afghanistan with it's Taliban government hosting Al-Qaeda training camps. Be prepared to act when it happens. If not now, propose some solutions that will allow the US to leave sooner. Whether you realize it or not, the US would be happy if all of our troops could come home tomorrow. At the moment I don't think we can do that. What do you think?

The spawnning of much of the terrorism tactics and military knowledge in Afghanistan was taught to the rebels fighting the Soviets by the US in the 80's. (yet another mess the US made and now is stuck with the consequences). Now it has been turned against us. Go figure.

 

To get a bit Spiderman, "With great power comes great responsibility." The US has continually shown that it will exert its power when it feels it needs to to maintain the status quo. Lebanon has shown that democracy can occur, it did not need to be instigated with "shock and awe" when the US's lap dog had gone rabid.

[Harzburgite]

To 'liberate' Iraq was, in my view at best ill-judged, at worst self-serving and Machiavellian. To leave now would, however, be simply evil.

[Biochemist]

To 'liberate' Iraq was, in my view at best ill-judged, at worst self-serving and Machiavellian. To leave now would, however, be simply evil.

To remember UN resolution 1441 from 2002:

 

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/scres/2002/res1441e.pdf

 

and the US joint resolution for war:

 

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html

 

The justificaiton for entry into war in Iraq was not fabricated out of whole cloth. Anyone is welcome to disagree with the weight of Iraqi infractions, but they are certainly not trivial. I have always thought that hundreds of instances of hositle fire against coalition warplanes was more than enough grounds alone. These actions are fairly characterized as acts of war by nearly all (perhaps absolutely all) western powers.

 

Further, Saddam could easily have complied with the resolutions (dozens of opportunities) and chose not to do so. He brought this on himself.

 

The Iraqi invasion was not unwararnted.

[Fishteacher73]

The Iraqi invasion was not unwararnted.

 

This is true, but it was globally unnessecary and poorly planned. There have been many other countries that continue to ignore UN resolutions and prove to be a viable threat (Iran and N. Korea).

[infamous]

This is true, but it was globally unnessecary and poorly planned. There have been many other countries that continue to ignore UN resolutions and prove to be a viable threat (Iran and N. Korea).

Absolutely Fish, and does the UN plan to get up off it's proverbial posterior and do any thing about these problems or, is it going to wait until a terrorist uses a nuke acquired from either one of these nations before it will act. How many resolutions will it take before they drop the hammer, or will they wait for the USA to take the lead so they can have someone to blame if things go wrong. Lately the UN has been as worthless as tits on a boar hog.

[C1ay]

This is true, but it was globally unnessecary and poorly planned. There have been many other countries that continue to ignore UN resolutions and prove to be a viable threat (Iran and N. Korea).

True as well. China has already suggested that they'd use their veto power to keep Iran from being referred to the Security Council though and they'd probably use it for N. Korea as well. That said, everyone with faith in the UN, take a deep breath and hold it 'til the UN actually does something.

[Chacmool]

Here is another classic example of state-sponsored crime in South Africa, from today's news headlines:

 

"Recently retired head of the South African National Defence Force, General Siphiwe Nyanda, came under fire from the Freedom Front Plus (FF+) for taking his "girlfriend" to a ceremony in France at state expense. The trip to France for Nyanda and his friend S.T. Tshabalala and a Major D. Russel cost the taxpayer R191 170 [about US$29 000]. Defence Minister Mosiuoa Lekota confirmed the details."

 

It's upsetting that this is being done with our tax money, and that the perpetrator will certainly get away with it.

[Qfwfq]

And withdrawing now, will only make matters worse in Iraq.

 

But that does not change the fact that an invasion was wrong to begin with, bringing us back, once more, to the topic of this thread.

Absolutely true but it won't be easy to pull out, now that the damage has been done. Look at history. Churchill and Roosevelt did a better job and with more reason behind it, locally almost everybody was against the Nazi-Fascists and the internal resistance was diffuse, yet trouble ensued for decades.

 

If there ends up being an iron curtain in that area it will be enduring trouble.

 

A ruthless dictator that gases his own people and runs them through shredders has been stopped. The kind of person the UN was founded over has been stopped because the UN failed to do the job it was founded to do.

He did not gas his own people, he gassed an ethnic minority in an annexed territory. He wasn't the only one that ever gassed anyone, including the Kurds, do you know who was the first in history to gas the Kurds? The first time I heard about Alì doing it was back in '83 and that probably wasn't as soon as it had happened. International press hardly took much notice of it and what did anybody do about it, back then?

 

The UN should be changed quite radically IMO but it just won't happen because the members that count, those that have veto power, just don't want it to become effective. What the UN failed to do in the Iraq case was prevent John Wayne's invasions and have members support a better action all along.

[Chacmool]

I've started a new thread about the war in Iraq, because it seems to be taking over this thread, and other unrelated opinions are being overlooked. It might be worthwhile to re-read the first few posts and get back to the topic of this thread.