State sponsored crime

[IrishEyes]

Terrorism, as such, might be comparable to the above in that its a symptom of a very sick society. And we should look for the cause, and then root that out in such a way as to not aggravate the potential terrorists any further...I would say what we need to do is to get in their heads; get behind the issues that's causing this - and then tackle the issues. Treating cancer's symptoms won't take the cancer away.

B-

Though I often don't agree with things you say, and I can't always get around to your perspective, I am always interested to hear your views. However, on this point, I fully agree.

 

...the 'Truth and Reconciliation Commission', where you get amnesty if you spill the beans. There was a cut-off date after which no amnesty will be given, everyone arrested for crimes on both sides of the armed struggle after that date would be prosecuted and punished with the full might of the Law.

It sounds like a great plan, and I'm really glad it worked for you, but it also sounds like something the UN tried back in the mid-to-late 90s, with no success. Part of that had to do with failing to follow up on the 'prosecuted and punished with the full might of the Law', imho. But then, the US was one of the ones tapped to do the punishing, and things got really wild for a bit. I can still remember being on that carrier in the Gulf. "ok, we're bombing tonight, in 28 minutes. 14 minutes. 6 minutes. 3 minutes. Never mind, they postponed it. Again." Not that we were all that hot to bomb anyone, but it would have been nice for the people in charge (not anyone on the ship, for sure) to stick to the deadlines that they had imposed.

 

..."before it is ok to defend yourself from the people that want nothing more than your total destruction", how is this sentence to be interpreted from the Islamic terrorist-to-be's point of view? If it is in the West's best interest to root this phenomenon out, you are seeking their 'total destruction'?

No, not total destruction. Not at all. I'm not in that camp, I think we need to do some sorting here on earth. ;) However, total disarmament might be nice. ;)

I'm actually a 'world peace' person, myself. I think everyone should get rid of their guns and just live happily together. We should work on forming the perfect Utopian society. I guess the biggest problem is whose version of Utopia we need to be trying to achieve, huh?

[IrishEyes]

And BTW, since I'm annoyed by the silly accusations, let me point out yet again the USA is hardly the only people under threat, so enough of the arrogant selfcenteredness already. Get over yourselves. This kind of arrogance is already responsible for so many massive mistakes the present USA admin have made directly decreasing the security of the USA.

Gurder,

Now I'm speaking directly to you, ok?

Get over yourself. Arrogant self-centeredness? Hardly. Just fed up with how often the US gets cracked on around here. If we're not being bashed for doing something, we're being bashed for *not* doing something. Talk about a Catch-22. Personally, I don't see many other countries that are willing to get involved in other areas of the world, but I see quite a few that are ready to scream when something doesn't get done. It reminds me of high school, and I'm just really so far beyond that scene that it doesn't even appeal anymore.

[Boerseun]

... so enough of the arrogant selfcenteredness already. Get over yourselves. This kind of arrogance is already responsible for so many massive mistakes the present USA admin have made directly decreasing the security of the USA.

Gurdur, I've gotta agree with you. And with all due respects to not only Irish and Infamous, but to any US citizen, I still insist that we've got to cut down on the emotions regarding terrorism.

 

Keep in mind - emotions, not rational thought, gave rise to terrorism in the first place. And we are better than that.

 

To illustrate my point: In the 2nd Boer War, 1898 - 1901, the Boers won the initial battles with a smile and a loaded Martini-Henry. After roughly 6 to 9 months. the British had their forces mustered, and imported hundreds of thousands of Tommies. At their peak, they had more than half a million soldiers fighting for the Union Jack, pitted agains a paltry force of maybe 30,000 Boers. The Boers were outnumbered and outgunned. They reverted to, and in a big way, invented guerilla warfare, and kept the Brits on the tips of their toes for another two and a half years. They simply had no choice, and was in no way capable to meet the British militarily. They were fighting for their pride. What did the Brits do? They burnt the farms of the sovereign republics of both the Transvaal and the Orange Free State, incarcerated all the Boer women and children in concentration camps (yeah - and you thought the Germans invented those?) and after a while they realised that these emaciated people were costing them a couple of quid, ground glass was introduced into cans of bully-beef presented to these people as food. The tally lies at 27,000 Boer women and children who died of maltreatment in these camps. And till today the Brits won't face up to the injustices of ole' queen Vicky's actions. Reports from the concentration camps only strengthened the Boer's resolve to fight the Brits till the last man.

 

The war could've been over in 6 months, but emotions caused it to carry on until there was not a farm left unmolested, not a farm left not burnt to the very ground.

 

Don't believe me? Ask any Australian who 'Breaker' Morant was - an Aussie conscripted by the British to go and fight the Boers - a war that had nothing to do with him, and injustices he wanted no part of. He got excecuted by the Poms, for not carrying out inhumane orders, by the way. He's an Autstralian national hero, and serves to illustrate how quickly a government, with all the best intentions in the world, can make itself guilty of 'State Sponsored Crime".

 

My point is: The Boers were no angels, by no means. They believed in their cause. And their cause was just - Britain decided to slap together a premise for a war, to lay their hands on the Boers' gold fields - the resources of a sovereign nation, by the way - did I hear you say OIL there in the background? Middle East? Middle East AND oil?. All about the money, I hear you say. Where does the justification lie, here?

 

When we get to issues such as these, emotions do more harm than good.

[IrishEyes]

Gurdur, I've gotta agree with you. And with all due respects to not only Irish and Infamous, but to any US citizen, I still insist that we've got to cut down on the emotions regarding terrorism.

Really? That's very interesting, considering the rest of the post.

Maybe a new thread should be started, since this one has gone off topic a bit. Possibly one of you would like to start a "How many things can we find wrong with the US and its citizens?" thread soon, huh? I think most of you would have a LOT to say in that one. ;)

[Boerseun]

Boerseun, I may have to stop reading your posts. I work my way through a thread, noting points I wish to take issue with or expand upon, then, I find one of yours - and you've done the work for me. Spooky.

Thank goodness - somebody singing from the same hymn sheet I am!

[Gurdur]

Gurder,

Now I'm speaking directly to you, ok?

Oh fine, at last.

Get over yourself.

Take your own advice.

Arrogant self-centeredness? Hardly. Just fed up with how often the US gets cracked on around here.

Oh cry me a river.

I askeed some reasonable questions, and I get mere empty posturing from Infamous, and empty flames, then I get empty flames and silly accusations from you too.

. It reminds me of high school, and I'm just really so far beyond that scene that it doesn't even appeal anymore.

Then give some reasonable answers, fer crying out loud. Enough of the self-pity and melodramatics already.

[Gurdur]

Really? That's very interesting, considering the rest of the post.

Maybe a new thread should be started, since this one has gone off topic a bit. Possibly one of you would like to start a "How many things can we find wrong with the US and its citizens?" thread soon, huh? I think most of you would have a LOT to say in that one. ;)

I guess you are not listening.

When you've finished whining, I repeat:

I have a fair few friends in the USAAF. Work this one out for yourself.

 

I can see no reason why you are so hostile. Neither Boerson nor I are anti-American, however much you may jump tp conclusions.

[infamous]

Are you trying to say that our definition of terrorist is everyone's definition of terrorist? If there are those that believe they are freedom fighters I think it would benefit us to understand their view even though we disagree with it.

I agree with this point of view C1ay, and, a comment about this question of understanding follows:

 

The struggle between the Sunni and Shiite factions of the Muslim faith has been going on now for a very long time. If was evident long before the USA got involved and still is a major reason for the conflict continuing in Iraq. I dare say that if the US were to leave Iraq tomarrow, the conflict would continue and most likely increase in proportion. To blame the US for all the violence in this part of the world is a mistake, remember the Iraq Iran war. My point here is quite simple, this fighting has been going on a long time without any help from us what-so-ever. I believe one of our mistakes is, to think we can find a solution that will heal all these old wounds. Many of the members posting here suggest that our presence in that part of the world is doing nothing but aggrevating the situation, and, to an extent I must agree. However, we did not take this war upon ourselves to solve the Sunni Shiite problem. Lest we forget, after several attacks on our homeland culminating in 9/11, we found it neccessary to find an answer to the growing problem of Muslim militantism. If one recalls the attitude of Britain before the second world war, it was one of appeasement. Appeasement in the face of a determined enemy will fail. As Lincoln said about the civil war, "I fear that war has been forced upon us". Lest anyone forget, the militant leadership of Islam had long before 9/11 declared war upon us. When one declares war upon another, the other has no choice but to be at war!!!

[IrishEyes]

You need to watch it, mister.

You got no empty flames from me, nor from Infamous. And if you truly feel you have, then take it up with a Mod or an Admin. Don't whine about it.

You have the right not to like other people's opinion. You don't have the right to start attacking.

Read my post again, there was no self-pity at all.

Give us your opinions or your solutions, instead of just telling me why what I say is wrong. That's what the whole idea of 'discussion' is about, after all.

[C1ay]

Give us your opinions or your solutions, instead of just telling me why what I say is wrong. That's what the whole idea of 'discussion' is about, after all.

You really don't expect a bunch of complainers to actually propose solutions do you?

[Gurdur]

You need to watch it, mister.

You got no empty flames from me, nor from Infamous.

I guess your "Are you on crack?" was supposed to be a substantive post, not an empty flame ?

Or the other silly bits here, like Infamous accusing me of "ranting and raving" ?

Prejudiced much ? ;)

And if you truly feel you have, then take it up with a Mod or an Admin. Don't whine about it.

Seeing as to how you are an admin, I just did take it up with an admin. ;)

You have the right not to like other people's opinion. You don't have the right to start attacking.

Take your own advice already ;)

Give us your opinions or your solutions, instead of just telling me why what I say is wrong. That's what the whole idea of 'discussion' is about, after all.

I did, you asked if I was on crack. See any problem ?

[infamous]

You really don't expect a bunch of complainers to actually propose solutions do you?

Absolutely not C1ay, but they demand answers to their foolish questions don't they. go figure .

[Gurdur]

You really don't expect a bunch of complainers to actually propose solutions do you?

It's a really bad sign on a board when two admins start emptily flaming and trolling.

Had I been asked about my own personal ideas for solutions earlier, I would have answered in depth; dealing with silly accusations takes up too much time.

[infamous]

It's a really bad sign on a board when two admins start emptily flaming and trolling.

Had I been asked about my own personal ideas for solutions earlier, I would have answered in depth; dealing with silly accusations takes up too much time.

If you don't like the heat, maybe you should find another kicthen!!

[C1ay]

It's a really bad sign on a board when two admins start emptily flaming and trolling.

You've not done anything here but whine without suggesting even one solution. Why should anyone give any credence to your claims that the U.S. is doing things all wrong? That's the problem with the U.N., they sit around passing resolutions declaring this and that wrong without actually doing or enforcing anything? What do you think you're accomplishing here in your efforts to complain the problem away? Sometimes somebody has to get up and do something to get anything accomplished. At least the U.S. got up to do something about it instead of sitting around on their lazy buts like Germany, France and Russia. If you want to complain about the driving then get out of the back seat and drive, if you just want to ride in the back seat then shut up and enjoy the scenery.

[Boerseun]

With all due respect, ladies and gentlemen (don't you just get tired of me having to say 'with all due respect' all the time?)

 

Gurdur might not be in agreement with you folks. But I reckon he might just have something to say.

 

And no, Infamous - we're not all 'complainers'. Some of us have come up with what might be regarded as 'solutions', albeit relatively peaceful ones. A solution doesn't necessarily have to include an M16 assault rifle and a laser-guided bomb.

 

I am not US-bashing. My point, as I've said quite a lot of posts ago, was to show that if the US, that 'beacon of freedom', can make itself guilty of, as the thread goes, 'State Sponsored Crime', then any given country can. I'd say that that'll actually be a vote of confidence in the US, not? But if it's grieving you to find out that Uncle Sam might just, just have feet of clay, let's talk about, uhm... heck - Greece. Why not?

 

Don't be intolerant, now. Give Gurdur his chance, and look at it objectively.

[Boerseun]

The US is not above criticism. Not everything it does is right, all of the time.

 

It's actually quite interesting how quickly the US members here get on the wagon when anything slightly criticizing towards the US is mentioned.

 

Infamous and C1ay, regarding both of your last posts, when claiming Germany, France, et al is doing nothing regarding Iraq, can you maybe, in a clear and concise manner, tell us exactly what the United States is doing in Iraq in the first place?

 

We heard tell about WMD's, Hans Blix telling the world that there are none, and the US invading in any case. Based on what premise?

 

Every second post containing any word regarding the Iraq issue, for some strange reason, always sway towards 9/11. Why? There's no link between the two.

 

Is little George trying to finish off his daddy's war?

 

Or is it, once again, about oil?

 

I need answer regarding this. And don't attack me for this now. Read my questions, and answer them, please.