Evolution: Religion or Science?

[Harzburgite]

THAT, my friend IS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD. Thank you for admitting that fact.

 

You prove that your faith has been placed in evolution. Quote, "And? So what?" Unquote - Your zealous defense of that faith proves the point that evolutionism IS a religion. Your prophet Darwin said that his theory should be discarded if it couldn't be proved, he didn't say one should continue to edit past suppositions with other suppositions just to keep his theory breathing, he said it should be put away.

As noted in another thread the origin of life and its subsequent evolution are two separate issues.. Evolution has been proven to any one with eyes to see. Abiogenesis has not been.

[Gurdur]

You prove that your faith has been placed in evolution. ........ Your zealous defense of that faith proves the point that evolutionism IS a religion. .....his theory should be discarded if it couldn't be proved, .....

Let's go through these massive misconceptions one by one.

 

1) Accepting a reasonable theory is not the same as "faith".

It is meaningless hyperbole to slur a theory or assumption accepted on reasoning and reasonable evidence as "faith".

 

Take a look at the actual definitions of faith --- faith as properly defined means belief in the complete absence of evidence.

Whether you like evolution or not, and whether you accept the evidence or not, you cannot deny that evidence exists, you can only try denying its validity (and as far as I am concerned, you can also try claiming the Moon does consist of green cheese, and NASA faked the Moon landings).

 

2) No theory can be proven to the ultimate, since we cannot know anything for 100 %.

Therefore we can only disprove, not prove with 100 % certainty.

Evolution has never been scientifically disproven.

I refer you to the works by and on Karl Popper and falsification, and later critiques.

[Gurdur]

Ok it says in Romans 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ah, who says that bit is correct ?

Are you aware of obvious known forgeries within the Bible ?

Gen 3:14.......Gen 3:15

Gen 3:16.....Gen 3:17.....Gen 3:18.....Gen 3:19

Nowhere there does it say that the whole Earth is cursed, unlike your previous supposition.

In otherwords he HAS eternal power.

The creator (God) always was, is and forever will be.

Sez who again ?

 

BTW, why don't you believe in the Koran and Mohammed ?

[Gurdur]

Nor is punctuated equilibria "accepted dogma", nor is it even a widely accepted theory.

That was my point. It should be, but it is not.

Science is not built on dogma, nor is dogma scientific.Do you know what dogma actually is ?

What are you talking about?PE makes no assumptions about mechanism. It describes a problem as elucidated in the fossil record. PE is a paleontological assessment, not a genetic one. I understand that gradualism assumes mutation. I think that portion of gradualism is very poorly substantiated. Very poorly. Gradualism via genetic drift (in contrast) has credible support.

I'm not sure what your opinion really is, since your claims appear confused and since you've failed to answer many of my previous questions and points, but I will repeat:

 

1) Contrary to your previous statements,

..a) both gradualism and punctuated equilibria models assume mutation

..;) Neither is "a general speciation mechanism", contrary to your previous statement

[Gurdur]

Theists tend not to be determinists, since they allow for external causality. I have no idea what point you are making.

Very wrong.

Theists are in fact mostly all physical determinists, and some (Calvinists) are also psychological determinists.

Allowing for external causality is still a species of determinism.

 

And now let's hear just what are you proposing, since you reject evolution on the base of mutation as affected by selection ?

[Gurdur]

This is a perfectly reasonable postulate. But it is only that. No one has demonstrated that the neurological physical plant is an evolutionary step, or that the neurological placement is an error. These are assumptions.

You can assume whatever you like based on the morphological observations, and you can assert causality as well. But to assume there is no other potential mechanism or interpretation of the observed morphology is a little short sighted.

Wrong on your implied points.

I keep asking you for your own substitue explanation, since you aparently do not accept evolution on the basis of mutation as affected by selection.

You have given no alternative explanation.

 

I have then considered the atual evidence, and many possible explanations, and accepted evolution on the basis of mutation as affected by selection as the most reasonable explanation.

BTW, many theists also accept evolution on the basis of mutation.

 

You then refuse to give me any full alternative explanation so far, and have made numerous claims which you have not backed up despite my questioning them, such as scientists allegedly behaving like a herd, or science being built implicitly on psychological determinism, or the odd way you apparently regard the punctuated equilibria model as being not built on mutation, when it most assuredly was.

Despite my many questions to you still being unanswered, and despite the alck of any ful alternative explanation from you, you then appear to accuse me of being "shortsighted".

I find that rather ironic.

[brianthepoet]

I believe the problem is that many people have not placed enough faith in the concept of evolution. For example, the story of Noah did not just appear out of the blue. It goes back long before the bible, with stories like Gilgamesh, etc. The version that appears in the new testament (sometimes with 7 of each animal, sometimes 2) is the product of a long line of stories handed down from generation to generation, with the most believable story at the time being the one to survive. Who knows what might happen to it now that we have space shuttles going to all sorts of places. Might special doves be developed which can fly through an airless space? I am really looking forward to reading the bible in my future lives!

 

 

 

 

Thank God there is only one infinity! - brianthepoet

[Gurdur]

Words have meaning, and we should use them. Let's start with a definition of Determinism:Keep in mind that I am not defending Determinism

Wikipedia is not an accepted academic reference work. If you want to talk real science, at some stage we must use real scientific terms, not the popular meanings.

Determinists do not allow for external causality

Wrong.

Perhaps you are thinking of metaphysical naturalists; a subsept of determinism.

The point was that Determinists cannot identify any causality for thought or feeling other than preexisting states of nature. Therefore feelings like "love" and higher constructs like "purpose of mankind" are meaningless, since they are only resultants of prior events.

I have no idea why you are fighting this. And I give up defending a definition.

The fact is you simply make wrong claims ablout science, scientists and the "scientific method", and its basis.

Again here you make exactly such a wrong claim; only a small minority of scientists would find "love" meaningless. What you claim about scientists being "Determinists" in the sense you mean it is simply not correct.

 

Now let me ask you: just what is your background in science of mind, or psychology ?

[Gurdur]

I am really looking forward to reading the bible in my future lives!

Isn't there some sort of contradiction in that ?

Reincarnation not being a Biblical notion, after all ?

Just asking. ;)

[eMTee]

I do not expect any unbeliever to see any diffrent than you all are now.

 

It says in the Bible that in the last days, the Hebrews will start up their sacrifices again. and that "peace" between Isreal and it's long enemys will come for a time.

 

Today you see the big topic about trying to get peace to the middle east. And Isreal is on the search to get everything needed and ready for starting the sacrifices...you talk about world peace..well the Bible also talks about one world order with the antichrist as the head. If you read the phophecies in the Bible, you will notice somwhere it names the animals that represents the nations, and tells you what would happen.

 

I know how this is not the forum to be talking about this, but I just decided to mention it.

[eMTee]

I am really looking forward to reading the bible in my future lives!

Isn't there some sort of contradiction in that ?

Reincarnation not being a Biblical notion, after all ?

Just asking. ;)

 

You are correct Gurdur.

[Boerseun]

I do not expect any unbeliever to see any diffrent than you all are now.

 

It says in the Bible that in the last days, the Hebrews will start up their sacrifices again. and that "peace" between Isreal and it's long enemys will come for a time.

 

Today you see the big topic about trying to get peace to the middle east. And Isreal is on the search to get everything needed and ready for starting the sacrifices...you talk about world peace..well the Bible also talks about one world order with the antichrist as the head. If you read the phophecies in the Bible, you will notice somwhere it names the animals that represents the nations, and tells you what would happen.

 

I know how this is not the forum to be talking about this, but I just decided to mention it.

Why, exactly, does committed Christians like yourself care at all about Israel, and Hebrews? They emphatically deny Jesus being the Son of God. Besides being off-topic, I just thought I'd ask.

 

I any case - you are pretty prejudiced in your expectations regarding unbelievers. They are all sitting in a great big circle around a campfire waiting for some proof. Then one guy will whip out his 12-string Gibson, and they'll all start singing Kumbaya.

 

But the utter lack of any tangible proof, doesn't weaken their resolve to wait for it. Matter of fact, the guitarist's fingers are itching to start pluckin' them strings. You must just come to the party with them proof things.

[Gurdur]

I do not expect any unbeliever to see any diffrent than you all are now.

Thank heavens for that.

If you read the phophecies in the Bible, you will notice somwhere it names the animals that represents the nations, and tells you what would happen.

Which animal represents the Seychelles Islands ?

Which animal represents the USA ? The ostrich, with its head in the sand ?

Just asking.

;)

[Skippy]

Why, exactly, does committed Christians like yourself care at all about Israel, and Hebrews? They emphatically deny Jesus being the Son of God. Besides being off-topic, I just thought I'd ask.

Because Christians believe what The Bible says:

 

Genesis 12:1-3 - "The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. (Israel)

"I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you;

I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.

 

I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;

and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

--And--

Romans 15:27 - "For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings."

[Skippy]

Take a look at the actual definitions of faith --- faith as properly defined means belief in the complete absence of evidence.

Now you're catching on. The Bible defines it thusly:" Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." - Hebrews 11:1

 

Whether you like evolution or not, and whether you accept the evidence or not, you cannot deny that evidence exists, you can only try denying its validity (and as far as I am concerned, you can also try claiming the Moon does consist of green cheese, and NASA faked the Moon landings)..

It is not a matter of like/dislike of the theory, it is a matter of support for that theory. You may choose not to accept creationism or the existence of God because you think there is no evidence for Him. The Christians I know would disagree as they have a personal relationship with God. The items you call evidence of evolution are up for debate. It is your faith that makes you believe that they are evidence of evolution. It is good to have faith in something, why do you and others deny that is what you have?

[eMTee]

Why, exactly, does committed Christians like yourself care at all about Israel, and Hebrews? They emphatically deny Jesus being the Son of God. Besides being off-topic, I just thought I'd ask.

Just as Skippy said.

 

And there will be a day in the last days, that Israel will turn back to God. And they will go throughout the World Bringing many to salvation in the last 7 years

 

Which animal represents the USA ? The ostrich, with its head in the sand ?

Just asking.

 

I am not for sure if the United States is mentioned, but the Bible mentions the Eagle, and that is loses it’s right wing, and somthing else. I’m not for sure, but the Bible might be referring to the United States in that. I should read the book Revelation. I think it’s mentioned there.

[Skippy]

...Then one guy will whip out his 12-string Gibson, and they'll all start singing Kumbaya.

Oh man, I love the sound of a 12 string acoustic guitar. Had a 12 string Seagull for a while but never learned to play.