Can the world change?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: sanctus

Absolutely! :-)

 

I don't know if this statement "absolutely :-)" you refer to yourself (I mean that you are able) or to the fact that you believe that it is possible, in the first case just a question: reading your posts elsewhere (mainly in the thread god), I got the idea that you don't accept anything without proof (it may be a wrong interpretation of mine), a thing that I tend to do as well, but isn't this an absolute?

 

In the second case why do you believe this?

 

I

 

I was just being funny, or attempting to be. That was why the smiley emoticon :-)

[lindagarrette]

Freethinker, I disagree that a cat can freely choose what to do in a given circumstance. Humans are in the same predicament. All of our actions are caused by some combination of precedents.

[Freethinker]

Depending on how far you want to push the line, I agree with you lindagarrette. Perhaps I was saying the same thing from the other direction. We both seem to mean that a cat and a human have relatively the same ability to make a personal choice. Whether that is complete or none. If we do not live in a completely deterministic world, which QM would indicate we don't, (or if we live in a multi-universe, then it doesn't matter)) then a cat would have a choice, as would we. It could be argued from both sides, based on level of applied determinism.

 

Then it would be more a matter of how correct of a decision each would be able to make. And what "correct" would be.

[Frogon]

The world will change, like Freethinker said, and unless something big (and slightly magical) happens, it will only get worse. Humans are the only thing that I can think of that live for tomorrow, rather than today. People work hard to get paid, so they can buy things, which only happens in the future, they go to school so later they can make more money. Why is this? Did someone just start doing it and everyone followed along?

 

Money is the main source of corruption, and we have a odd attraction to it. What was going on before people were using money to buy things? Did they have wars over areas that were rich in minerals and other expensive items? If today, people totaly stopped using money, and started doing everything for free, what would the world be like?

 

The line between Good and Bad get blurred, much like the line between liberal and conservative. However, to an Islamic extreamist, blowing yourself up along with several innocent people is not wrong, but to a less extream Islamic person, it is wrong. I cannot understand how someone could think giving tax cuts to the American people would help the economy, but apparently, "58" million people do.

 

The US election is a good example of how the world is getting more corrupt. People would care more about voting against gay marriage, and abortion, rather than who would really be the better leader. Some people whom I know (but want to forget), had already decided who they were voting for years ago because of the poltical party. When people care more about supporting a specific goal than benifiting the world, there is need for major change.

[sanctus]

Frogon, isn't it your belief in an exclusive change into something worse, that makes you perceive this as the only changes?

It's not that I disagree with your examples, but you forget to see the positive things, for example the Kyoto protocole has been ratified (even without the US), or (I doubt you know this one) in Switzerland stem cell research got a legal frame and is therefore now possible, in Switzerland active euthanasia is possible, tukey did many social reforms, Milosevic is facing process, in Ucraina the possibility of having real election is growing, China is having an econmic growth of 8% (what is positive even if a bit capitalist,as it rises the well-being of a senth of world's population) and so on...

 

This is the reason why I believe change is possible and hasn't to be worse (it can, but must not).

[Tim_Lou]

is there a limit of things we can do to change the world?

due to the limitation of human beings?

[sanctus]

I don't think there is Tim-Lou.At least if it's a change of menatality and as a consequence of the action of mankind you refer to. The physical limits we know that they are somewhere.

[Tim_Lou]

i think that the problem is that everybody has a limit, everyone.

some people can do math, but can't run even 100 meters...etc.

somehow, when one reaches that limit, there is nothing more that the person can do.

 

overall, there would be a limit of changes being made in the world.

 

and the answer to Can the world change?

would be, no, when we reach the limits.

 

an example would be... can the sun rises somewhere else? no, it aint gonna change... in a general way.

[Tormod]

and the answer to Can the world change?

would be, no, when we reach the limits.

...

an example would be... can the sun rises somewhere else? no, it aint gonna change... in a general way.

 

These are two different things.

 

Your first example involves individual human beings and as such is not useful. New people are born and grow up continually and so new possibilities open up.

 

The Earth's orbit around the sun is nothing we can do much about. :wink:

[TINNY]

I think human beings are extremely complex and that it ain't easy to predict where your limit is. One example was the world record for the 1500m run. People thought you can't get any lower than four minutes (not sure) but then the record kept getting lower and eventually broke that four minute barrier.

The limit might exist, but I think it is almost impossible to reach that limit due to the many factors that contribute to one's performance. Your mental state, fitness level, equipment, environment etc... You just can't get a perfect state of all those aspects simultaneously.

So the point is, the sky's the limit.

[TINNY]

About change;- humans have made by far the biggest physical change on earth compared to other species. Bacterias are pervasive, but they don't make much of a change. But for human beings, change is a norm. I think that's one of a few of the things that we can be certain of this world - it changes. One such example of change of the physical world is deforestation. Ok, what I'm trying to get at is human beings have made the biggest change on earth, and therefore must possess really special traits to bring about change. Most of the changes have been according to the worldview of the society. So if society were to have a positive, good and moral worldview, and have the necessary capabilities to change such as knowledge and technology, then we will have a utopia within a short time.