Religion vs. Religion

[LayDominican]

Buffy,

 

Do not misread what I wrote. I wrote that the West is at its weakest time in history. The greatest military in the West is bogged down in Iraq being picked apart by a culture that believes in destorying the West and the Christians that live there is the highest goal for them. And to die in that combat is part of their religious fever. To take out as many as one can, with a bomb tied to them is doing the duty of Allah. Those in the West cannot understand this mind set, and as such, will not be able to ensure victory. How do you teach a 19 yr old raw Marine to kill any child coming your way with out reaching arms and smiles? Why should you? Because the parents of that child knows he/she will be in heaven for the killing.

 

Tell me Buffy, as Catholics/Christians, how many of us would be willing to give up our children in such a way? I have 6 of my little grandchildren living with me. I cannot even begin to think about it.

[Buffy]

Do not misread what I wrote. I wrote that the West is at its weakest time in history...

That's why I'm asking you: I have no doubt that Muslim fanaticism is at its highest point since the domination of the Middle East, Africa and Iberia a thousand years ago. The question in this thread is concerned with actions that we can take to ameliorate this trend. You have not advocated one, and several here have said any such actions are useless, basically arguing that the evil "they" are all-powerful and unstoppable:

Tell me Buffy, as Catholics/Christians, how many of us would be willing to give up our children in such a way? I have 6 of my little grandchildren living with me. I cannot even begin to think about it.

So do you think all Muslims or even most want to strap bombs to their grandchildren to "kill the infidel?" Why?

 

To answer your question directly: very few of us religious or non-religious people would sacrifice our children, especially when the "cause" is so flimsy and the goals so extreme. I personally do not see much of a difference between Ramzi bin al Shib and Eric Rudolph. Neither one of them--no matter how notorious--is a justification to condemn one religious belief or another. Would you argue that one side in this battle of religious beliefs inherently good and the other inherently evil? If not, then isn't it possible that this extremism that is "rampant" in Islam today may be subject to this same tendency of the moderate majority to act sanely?

 

Again, do you believe that no action should be taken? If not, what do you think can or should be done?

 

Moderation supports survival,

Buffy

[HydrogenBond]

Part of impression we get of Muslims being extremists is generated by the media. The limited data set that is portrayed makes good news. One good plane crash followed by "expert analysis" makes everyone thinks planes are falling out of the sky everywhere. This circus sells soap and gives the 'experts' something to talk about. One will never here about the vast majority of good Muslims. This would be boring, the gloom and doom expert would be tongue tied and it doesn't sell soap as well.

 

Here is a little trivia that puts things in perspective, which one would never expect from media accounts of the war in Iraq. The per capita death rate in Washington DC, and a few other large American cities, is higher than in Bagdad, even with Bagdad "in the mist of civil war" and with all those Muslim extremists making bombs. Again, perspective doesn't sell soap as well and means less work for the "experts". This is entertainment. New reproting is sort of historical fiction, the data is accurate but cherry picked, with creative liberity being used to make the news more appealing at the box office.

[Buffy]

The per capita death rate in Washington DC, and a few other large American cities, is higher than in Bagdad, even with Bagdad "in the mist of civil war" and with all those Muslim extremists making bombs.

While absolutely agreeing with the conclusion of your post, it is necessary to correct this one:

 

The source of this fact is Rep. Steve King, R-IA and its conclusions are questionable because it compares "death rates" as opposed to "violent death rates"--natural deaths representing over 90% of both totals, thus hiding the nature of the difference between the two places--relies exclusively upon the low-balled "official Pentagon numbers." Washington DC with a bit less than 10% of the total population of Baghdad had an average of about 230 murders for the last 10 years resulting in a murder rate of about 0.4 per 1000 population (a big improvement over 1969-70 when the rate was nearly 0.9 per 1000!). Even if you assume that the recently reported numbers of 100 per day are "inflated by the media and politicians" by a factor of say 5 times, the murders would be 7200 in a population of 6m the murder rate would still be 1.2 per 1000. And that's assuming that each of those bodies showing up on the streets of Baghdad are recounted 5 times.

 

Back to the point of course: If all Muslims are really all ready and willing to strap on bombs, why are they only able to kill 5-10 American soldiers per day in this most deadly city in the world? Gruesome, but it makes you think: doesn't this imply that the vast majority of good Muslims in Baghdad just want to survive rather than being committed to the anihillation of "western values?"

 

Thanks Hydro!

 

And Statistics,

Buffy

[Dov Henis]

Do you believe that all life forms must eliminate all other life forms? Is the goal survival or annihilation of all others?

 

What you are describing is not Darwinian at all: Darwinism is not about "competition" its simply about "survival." Survival might involve competition, but it is not a *requirement*. Darwinism has been twisted and distorted to advocate many immoral initiatives (see Social Darwinism): you should be careful here.

 

Are you familiar with the notion of Symbiosis? Remorae would be great food for sharks, but they don't eat them because they would die without the free vacuum service.

 

Again an example of how extremist views lead to strategies that are actually harmful to the extremists.

 

Leaves everyone blind,

Buffy

 

 

I give up. You and I live on different planets and either have different genomes or totally different genomes expressions.

 

You are so tragically blind and deaf...I hope that most members of this forum are not so detached/remote from real life as you are.

 

I suggest you look at and listen to the citizens of Euroslam...

 

(and reyr wondering about what I "believe" and/or "familiar with", I'm a '56 Un of Pgh Biochem Ph.D. still learning and active scientifically...)

 

Dov

[Buffy]

I give up. You and I live on different planets and either have different genomes or totally different genomes expressions.

 

You are so tragically blind and deaf...I hope that most members of this forum are not so detached/remote from real life as you are.

Its certainly possible that your experience has led you to different conclusions about the nature of the threat posed by Islamic militancy, and I have no problem with that. But the point of this thread is to propose actions that should be taken. I'm not at all limiting the discussion to *assume* some of the opinions I've stated, so you're free to disagree: all I'm asking is that you say something about what those opinions about the current state and nature of the conflicts lead you to believe should be our strategy for addressing the conflicts.

 

You seem to be saying that it is the case that the vast majority of Muslims are dedicated to hostile action against all non-Muslims and there is no hope of them ever deciding that moderation would be a wise course of action. Given that (or any clarifications you might wish to offer), what actions should we take? If you advocate no action, given the seriousness and inevitably dangers that would logically flow from such extreme hostility, why will no action result in better outcomes?

 

Its perfectly fine to have any opinion you wish, but its also wise to consider the implications of those opinions.

 

Life is a fatal complaint,

Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

I'm a '56 Un of Pgh Biochem Ph.D. still learning and active scientifically...)

I've always loved it when people use their age and title to convince others instead of the merit of their position. That's just, yeah, wow.

 

 

To the purpose of the thread, it's not at all an easy topic, which is why the thread has continued as it has. Clearly demonstrated here are the emotions that come out when people explore their beliefs and faiths, the insecurities and resistance to other possibilities, and the grasping at proverbial straws to rationalize their own outlook.

 

I said it earlier, and will say it again, but my sense is the only way to reconcile the differences between faiths/religions/beliefs/insert word of choice is to change those religions themselves in such a way as to remove absolutes, nonacceptance of change, and recognize there is no certainty.

 

In my somewhat informed opinion, we fix by removing the wool from our eyes and no longer allowing ourselves to be misled more than the audience at a David Copperfield show.

[LayDominican]

My impression of the East does not come from the media. It comes from my father who was there, and from missionaires who worked and lived with death stalking them.My Father was in the Merchant Marines and sailed to the Far east frequently. There were many countries or ports of call that the crew was confind to the ship and the ship guarded by police of armed soldiers.Why? because they were from the west and the Moslem clerics had bounties on the life of anyone from the west.And the missionaires lived with the people, and the threat of being killed my Moslems was a everyday occurance.

 

So, when I read your questions, the stories my father and the missionaires told.So, I do think that the West has underestaimated the East. But the East has the glory of Allah as their goal. And that is a goal that cannot be barganing chip at any peace table.

 

And Buffy, I hope and pray that I am so wrong on this. I pray that all that I have written is proved a bad joke or one who was sacred.

[InfiniteNow]

LD, you're speaking in generalitities with no clear definition nor shared semantics... THE WEST... THE EAST... THE MUSLIMS... Try to stop grouping everyone into your perceptual box, and solutions may more readily present.

 

Oh, you're one of THOSE people... There is no us and them, just us.

[LayDominican]

Your questions, the title of this forum, Religion vs Religion, is for generalities and not for particulars. I used West vs East because in the eastern religion the value of life is much different than that of the West. It is the Islamic East that is training its murderous eyes towards. What are we to do? Are we to sit at a table and speak of peace and fellowship with a religion that has as its creed to wipe out those who do not believe in its way of life.To them it is a holy war, and one they intent to win. The West is not reacting fast enough. But more importantly, the best Army in the World, that is in the West, is being picked apart by a ragtag group of Islamic fighters who use women and children, the sick and lame to hide behind. The used the same to strap bombs on themselves to garner for themselves a higher place in heaven. This is a fact. it is not media hype. Just ask a returning vet, if they are willing to talk, just who is the enemy in Iraq. They will have the same far away look as the Viet Nam vet has. To have an American, or for that matter any young person from the West, to kill children, to kill that lame person coming towards you. Women so young themselves blowing themselves up for Allah.

Tell me, how do you sit down and talk about peace and brotherhood with people like that.How can we know the truth when they speak. And what faction do they speak for.It is not that I dont want peace between religions. I do. For it will be my family that will be pressed into service. I look at my grandkids and I cry, for I know not what the future is for them.

[InfiniteNow]

I used West vs East because in the eastern religion the value of life is much different than that of the West. It is the Islamic East that is training its murderous eyes towards.

I challange this assumption you've made, and go so far as to call it completely false.

 

But more importantly, the best Army in the World, that is in the West, is being picked apart by a ragtag group of Islamic fighters who use women and children, the sick and lame to hide behind.

Wouldn't that make theirs the best army? Most often "best" is defined by the success of a group's strategy. Anyway, we all know that the Salvation Army is the best army... Don't forget to drop a few bills in each time you shop.

 

Tell me, how do you sit down and talk about peace and brotherhood with people like that.

Much like I sit here and discuss the issue with you and our other members. As individuals, with different pasts, different goals, and personal interpretations.

 

How can we know the truth when they speak.

We decide the merits of an argument for ourselves, each of us. Right now you are so blinded by fear and hatred, my suggestion is that the first step in your knowing the truth when *they* speak is to listen to them openly... and go from there.

 

For it will be my family that will be pressed into service. I look at my grandkids and I cry, for I know not what the future is for them.

Perhaps your family will be smarter than you, and let go of the hatred, find a solution, and help us to all evolve as a society.

 

It is not that I dont want peace between religions. I do.

"The law of nature is, do the thing, and you shall have the power: but they who do not the thing have not the power." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Dov Henis]

Buffy,

 

(1) With a wink, Quoting Henry Kissinger, "The nice thing about being a 'celebrity' is that if you bore people they think it's their fault."

 

2) I am not saying "that the vast majority of Muslims are dedicated to hostile action against all non-Muslims". This may or may not be the case. How can this be assessed?

 

- Which Muslim denominations?

- In which Muslim or non-Muslim countries?

- How do you find out what "Muslims" think?

- Muslims are not hostile only "against non-Muslims".

- How do you envision "convincing" fanatic Muslims to become "moderate"?

- etc., etc.,

 

You use specific phenotypic terminology ( "Western" ? can you define it? ) that is relevant only to your community/country-nation. Your terminology and values and comprehensions are not relevant to some other phenotypes including fundamental Muslims. There is no such thing as a Muslim western-like democracy, be their populace "fanatic" or "liberal". You don't seriously seek/hope to find in a forum, even in this forum, any worthwhile suggested actions to resolve any of the many inter- or intra-religious threats/clashes the number and nature of which you and I and most of the forum members do not know.

 

I suggest that the thing we ( loosely defined "Western culture phenotype" ) can do promptly is what we glaringly should do but do not do, to press our governments to interfere effectively against ongoing or potential genocide.

 

Dov

 

( My humble suggestion:

Yahoo! 360° - Dov's Blog - Stopping Genocide )

[Buffy]

"The nice thing about being a 'celebrity' is that if you bore people they think it's their fault."

I'm sorry I'm boring you!

I am not saying "that the vast majority of Muslims are dedicated to hostile action against all non-Muslims". This may or may not be the case. How can this be assessed?

I agree: I think that there are a variety of viewpoints within Muslim culture. Key to any proposal for action is an assessment of its distribution. I apparently foolishly believe that the skew on this bell curve is only slight, while you may believe that it is skewed almost completely to the "extremist" end of the curve. That's okay. Go ahead and propose some actions given that assumption! As I've said, I'm not really interested in arguing assumptions, I would like to see a whole range of solutions based on different assumptions that may or may turn out to be the case. More answers are better!

You use specific phenotypic terminology ( "Western" ? can you define it? ) that is relevant only to your community/country-nation.

Actually I'm just repeating your reference to it: I'm not sure I even agree with your definition of the phenotypes "Western" and "Muslim" since they seem to eliminate the possibility of common beliefs between them: Are the beliefs and norms of "Muslim society" so alien to our own that we can find no common ground? Do you think it is a waste of time to even seek such common ground?

There is no such thing as a Muslim western-like democracy, be their populace "fanatic" or "liberal".

I've spent quite a bit of time in both Maylasia and a bit in Indonesia. Both of these places are higly devout Muslim countries that are much more tolerant of "western values" than much of the Arab world, and with the exception of a few fanatic groups, are quite tolerant of other faiths. With the fall of Suharto, both are now highly democratic, and no more highly theocratic than the American Republican party.

You don't seriously seek/hope to find in a forum, even in this forum, any worthwhile suggested actions to resolve any of the many inter- or intra-religious threats/clashes the number and nature of which you and I and most of the forum members do not know.

Silly me! What *am* I thinking? Your pity of our simple little brains is probably well deserved. Any thinking that might lead to peace and greater understanding of our fellow man is the ultimate in foolishly tempting death, isn't it?

I suggest that the thing we ( loosely defined "Western culture phenotype" ) can do promptly is what we glaringly should do but do not do, to press our governments to interfere effectively against ongoing or potential genocide.

Great beginning of a suggestion, although incredibly vague. What should the nature of this "interference" be? Verbal scolding? Boycotts? Bombing runs? Spanking with copies of Dr. Spock? Telling them that they're stupid because of the foolish things they believe in? What exactly do you suggest? I'm willing to take even extreme options into consideration here, I'm only trying to goad you into *being specific* about the courses of action, because that's what this thread is all about!

 

Apparently an Idiot,

Buffy

[LayDominican]

I know that I am being provincial when I used the terms West and East. But I am referring to old fueds. Christianity vs. non-Christianity or Eastern religion and thought.I have not the power nor the williness to say that I speak for all Catholics nor do I know all Islamic sects. I am a novice speaking only what I have learned at my friends feet. And that I took that position willingly, for Father McCabe,O.P., at the time 70yrs, young undertook to teach me all that he knew. And this Dominican Friar knew more than anyone I had ever come across.And for the next 12 yrs or so, he taught me everyday. He taught me the ways of the Order. He taught me the way of the Order's missionaires. And I was luck enough to meet some of them. I am humbled to say that they were men of iron will, but hearts unlike any I had met. Kindness was in their eyes and in the words. And it was from them that I learned about Islamic ways, and how they think and what they think to a point. I have written in general what they taught me, for medication that I am on has robbed me of some of my memory.And Father McCabe has died, leaving me with a whole in my heart, for I looked upon him as I would my own Grandfather.

 

Anyway, as there are more than just Christians and Moslems (i.e. Jews, Hindus, Buddhists,gnostics, agnostics, etc, etc) and where do they play in this drama. I write because a question was asked, and I have attempted to answer it. If I have failed to get my point across, I am sorry. It was not my intention to confuse nor to speak as one of know it all authority. I will humbly step down from my soapbox and allow others to speak. And I will learn from them.

[Buffy]

Anyway, as there are more than just Christians and Moslems (i.e. Jews, Hindus, Buddhists,gnostics, agnostics, etc, etc) and where do they play in this drama.

They sure do! Great question! Thanks for reminding everyone: this thread is an attempt to seek common strategies--probably not perfectly common due to both levels of differences and history--that might be applied to all sorts of conflicts between religious beliefs, whether its Evangelicals versus Pentacostals or Muslims versus Buddists...

I write because a question was asked, and I have attempted to answer it. If I have failed to get my point across, I am sorry. It was not my intention to confuse nor to speak as one of know it all authority. I will humbly step down from my soapbox and allow others to speak. And I will learn from them.

I'm very glad you took the time to answer it, and I would not underestimate how well you got your point across! You should consider that many of my posts above were not to disagree with your viewpoint, but rather to get you to think about what your viewpoint means and to draw your answers which--as I just pointed out to Dov--emphasize the assumptions about the actors rather than *suggesting actions.* I think your participation here has been quite illuminating and I for one consider your contribution valuable: I'm just trying to direct you toward the goal of defining actions (or justifying non-action), no matter what your assumptions are!

 

Thanks!

Buffy

[LayDominican]

Buffy,

 

If I can continue with just a thought that occurred as I read your post. What actions can we do to slow down or even derail any hostile actions due to religious differences. First, I think those of us who have never been expose to the Moslem faith should pick up a book(yes, they still make and sell books) and read about their lifestyles and so forth. If possible, do as Pope Benedict did and visit a mosque. Before visiting, go to the person in charge ( I can't for the life of me remember what their title is) explain why you are there, and to pray and give glory to God.See if you can gather some written information about the sect you are visiting. The name of the game is to learn. The computer can put mountains of information at your fingertips, but unless you know what it is you are looking for.....Nothing can beat the personal contact.. Knowledge is the key to unlock the door of understanding.

[Buffy]

I think those of us who have never been expose to the Moslem faith should pick up a book(yes, they still make and sell books) and read about their lifestyles and so forth. If possible, do as Pope Benedict did and visit a mosque. Before visiting, go to the person in charge ( I can't for the life of me remember what their title is) explain why you are there, and to pray and give glory to God.

I *strongly* recommend this! Even though I've always been fairly firm in my religious beliefs, I've been to a wide range of religious services across many major and minor denominations and beliefs, and it has *always* been enlightening. Try it!

 

Multidenominational,

Buffy