Religion vs. Religion

[Buffy]

As there are now over 35,000 different groups calling themselves Christians. As a Roman Catholic I sometimes wish they would just name the group(s) rather than just say Christian. When the Roman Catholic Church does something wrong, there is no problem naming who it was that did the wrong.

Banding together these groups--by the way, mostly done by Christians themselves--is useful because it creates power through numbers ("most popular religious belief") as well as creating a facade of ecumenicism (which often in the same breath is disowned). It is highly germane to this thread that there is much fodder for examining conflict simply between Christian faiths: you don't need to bring in Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or Wiccans to create conflict. The Lutheran's acceptance of gays is the epitome of immorality to other groups.

As for the game, kids are being brainwashed at school, on tv. and on video games.Violence doesnot take much to teach.

No, but its not the "teaching how to be violent" its the teaching that its some how *moral*. Sure there's a lot of violence in popular culture, but it is almost always put into a context of immorality. TV has violence, but studies of it show that violence is almost universally punished, to an extent that it is *completely unreal*: In real life, people get away with this stuff far more often than Hollywood makes it look. Shoot-em-up games--which for the life of me I don't understand--make the other guys as bad as possible (see Pro Wrestling for another example), or if not, are at least sending the message "you know this is bad, but we'll let you do it anyway." This is fundamentally different than portraying killing *any* "unbeliever" as *good* and *moral* and *doing God's work*.

 

God wants you to kill people who don't belong to our sect,

Buffy

[LayDominican]

Buffy,

 

The entire gay issue is hard for both me and my wife. My step-son is gay. And it is hard for us to maintain what the Church teaches, and to be a father and a mother.Don't get me wrong, we love our son very much. We have told him he is welcome in our house along with his friend anytime. and we have had long talks about the religious,moral and social issues. It is an open subject for the four of us (me, my wife, our son, and his friend). We have talked to our son privately about the idea of his getting married. As devoute Catholics we thought we would be doing wrong by attending. But we asked our Dominican advisor, and he said as long as it was not done within the Catholic Church, there would be no reason for us not to attend.

 

We are not fundies, but we are devoute. there is a difference. Both my wife and I welcome others paths of life. The site I started "Christians vs. Non Christians" includes Hindus,Buddhists,gnostic, witches, wiccans, catholics and atheists, etc etc..And it has been discussing religion with them, that I have found myself growing deeper in my faith while at the same time, I have learned that there are many paths to walk.

 

I guess that is why I am here. I come to this site and on this fourm to learn.If I have written to much here I am sorry. It is not my intention to preach anything at all. If you wish me to resign from this discussion, Buffy, I will with no ill feelings...Blessings and Peace....† Lay †

[Buffy]

The entire gay issue is hard for both me and my wife. My step-son is gay. And it is hard for us to maintain what the Church teaches, and to be a father and a mother.

 

...we asked our Dominican advisor, and he said as long as it was not done within the Catholic Church, there would be no reason for us not to attend.

Your post is a marvelous example of exactly the kind of conflict that I'd like to discuss here, but more importantly, look how its resolved! You have trouble reconciling your beliefs with your love for your son. So what do you do? You love your son! What does your church say? He isn't invited to our club, but love your son!

 

This represents a happy--even if it is "illogical"--compromise between beliefs and reality. On one side people will berate you for "violating" God's word and on the other people will berate your refusal to fully accept the innoffensiveness of homosexuality (at least). You've come down on the side of *good*, choosing to say that your beliefs and your actions are not in conflict, but are an example of how you have chosen the best course in life.

 

Isn't that a better resolution that being absolutist? Wouldn't it be great if more people and religious leaders could make these sorts of compromises where conflict occurs?

 

As I like to say, if you think that all moral decisions in life are simple, read Herman Melville...

...If you wish me to resign from this discussion...

:): why pray tell do you think I'd want you to resign?

 

God bless Captain Vere, :)

Buffy

[Dyothelite]

Buffy,

I think I might be partially responsible for getting this issue on Fox News. When you posted it I waited to see if it would hit the news. Sure enough the next day it hit CNN in the Situation Room.

What was appauling to me was that Fox News the "chrisitan network" hadn't touched it despite the fact that they are usually all over Christmas/Wal Mart stories.

I sent a bunch of emails last night and I've been watching Fox News all day and I heard a glimpse of the story to be discussed this weekend on the Cost of Freedom. I'll put money on it though that they are too scared to touch it.

[Freddy]

I find it simply amazing the Roman Catholic Church excludes gays, but went out of its way to protect pedophile (gay) priests from being discovered by moving them from church to church and from diocese to diocese. What I find even more amazing is that Catholics are so blinded by faith not to see the truth about the Church.

[Buffy]

I think I might be partially responsible for getting this issue on Fox News. When you posted it I waited to see if it would hit the news. Sure enough the next day it hit CNN in the Situation Room.

Congrats! I've done that myself: amazing what you can get done with e-mails...

I'll put money on it though that they are too scared to touch it.

I don't know why: isn't getting Christian soldiers trained for the front-lines right in line with O'Reilly's "War on Christmas" theme? Bill it as "backlash against the War on Christmas!" I think they'd be hyping it! Of course there's that little bit about the outcome of the last election...I hear they're trying to become more like CNN... :rant:

 

<:cup:>Seriously, I consider Fox to be *very* un-Christian: they're simply in the Rovian "Permanent Republican Majority" crowd because they think its good for their bank accounts. They'll do anything to swing the vote including pandering to the religious.... </:read:>

 

Olberman, Colbert and Stewart, Oh My, :cup:

Buffy

[Buffy]

I find it simply amazing the Roman Catholic Church excludes gays, but went out of its way to protect pedophile (gay) priests from being discovered ....

Some would say that this is just a side effect of bureaucracy: too many layers creates a middle management with little motivation to support the top level goals of the organization while giving them enormous incentive (promotion, perks) to cover their heinies. Some claim that that Shi'a Islam has the same problem vis-a-vis Sunni Islam, because the Shi'a raise the ayatollahs who are decended from Mohammed above others, and result in the creation of similar hierarchies.

 

This does not justify this sort of behavior, but Max Weber would tell you that the *structure* makes it just about inevitable.

 

A related problem is the idolatry of the folks at the top, a place that is littered with the vain and immoral conduct from Alexander VI to Jim Jones and Ted Haggard. Absolute power, etc.

 

The issue to be reflected upon here is that it is the *structure* of religious organizations--not necessarily the religious beliefs (although they can contribute as well)--that can make the negative "initiatives" and "practices" of religions detrimental to both adherents and their adversaries.

 

The Medium,

Buffy

[Freddy]

Some would say that this is just a side effect of bureaucracy: too many layers creates a middle management with little motivation to support the top level goals of the organization while giving them enormous incentive (promotion, perks) to cover their heinies. Some claim that that Shi'a Islam has the same problem vis-a-vis Sunni Islam, because the Shi'a raise the ayatollahs who are decended from Mohammed above others, and result in the creation of similar hierarchies.

 

This does not justify this sort of behavior, but Max Weber would tell you that the *structure* makes it just about inevitable.

 

A related problem is the idolatry of the folks at the top, a place that is littered with the vain and immoral conduct from Alexander VI to Jim Jones and Ted Haggard. Absolute power, etc.

 

The issue to be reflected upon here is that it is the *structure* of religious organizations--not necessarily the religious beliefs (although they can contribute as well)--that can make the negative "initiatives" and "practices" of religions detrimental to both adherents and their adversaries.

 

The Medium,

Buffy

 

You probably have part of the answer, but Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston himself was exposed, as was his predecesor, for moving those priests around. Law works in the Vatican. Some punishment for being forced to resign as Archbishop!

[Buffy]

Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston himself....

Still middle management according to Weber...

 

What most religions really need is some creative destruction...

 

Upside down,

Buffy

[Dyothelite]

Here's the story:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,236209,00.html?sPage=fnc.technology/videogaming

 

Notice the title "Liberal Christians......"

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by foxnews.com

"Part of the object is to kill or convert the opposing forces," said the Rev. Tim Simpson of Jacksonville, Fla., who heads the Christian Alliance for Progress. "It is antithetical to the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

I think it's just a misunderstanding; a commercialist venture with good intent. People just don't understand "the message" enough to write plots around it without distorting it.

[Southtown]

Case in point:

 

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/games/leftbehind.ars

[HydrogenBond]

Although there is always discussions about the pitfalls of religion and how they are often inconsistent with each other, there is another side. When you look back at religion there is not only the manipulation and corruption, but there is also a positive side. For example, one only has to go through the list of Saints to find human beings going beyond the call of human duty because of their religious beliefs. Without religion, these same people may have been less altruistic. The greatest art in the world has a religious connection and motivation. Religion and the church inspired DiVinci, Michelangelo, etc., to create works that are hard to top today. The pyramids, Greek and Roman sculpture were motivated by their religions. Even the precursors of science were performed by those seeking the truth in nature, i.e, God's material creation. Religion brings out the extremes in humans and life would be a sterile place without it.

[Buffy]

... Religion brings out the extremes in humans and life would be a sterile place without it.

Hydro: I agreed with you all the way until this line: This unfortunately is a classic unsupportable claim. You're welcome to the opinion, but realize that it is only that. Great beauty has indeed been created without religion, and it can be argued that the great upturn in Greek art for example came when they became secular humanists! Since it only really became "legal" to be irreligious in recent times, its hard to extrapolate what the shift means, but again, the 20th century in particular is littered with great art inspired by humanism (e.g. Dadaism) or even rejectionism of religion (Joyce!).

 

Absolutism is never right,

Buffy

[LayDominican]

I just wanted to take the time to wish everyone a happy and safe holiday. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year:angel2:

[Dyothelite]

Aaaah! Happy HOLY Days! (That's what Wal-Mart should say as a slogan)

[ughaibu]

Shouldn't these well-wishing posts be in the Watercooler, or somewhere else more appropriate.