An Examination Of Trump.

[montgomery]

I was walking down the street the other day and some bum accosted me seeking "spare change."

 

For some unknown (and virtually unforgiveable) reason, I gave the mutt a couple of dollars.

 

As I was walking away, he screamed at me:  "You selfish bastard!  Two damn dollars!?  I know you have more than that on you.  I hope you rot in hell!"

In Canada you would likely see much fewer of those mutts begging on the streets. Here's why:

 

The American way includes a great amount of charity, and that extends to them being big tippers in restaurants. Indeed, some US restaurants take away a servers wages and make up the wages with her/his tips.

 

Canadians are less generous when it comes to tipping and charity in general and that's because our system faces social responsibility for the people and makes charity less necessary. In the US, charity is depended upon to even save lives because of no adequate health care. And the statistics show that the US system fails to save many of those lives. (it's another discussion)

 

But in a nutshell, you should be able to see the reason why Americans must absolutely continue to give money to those you refer to as mutts.

Edited February 9, 2019 by montgomery

[Moronium]

But in a nutshell, you should be able to see the reason why Americans must absolutely continue to give money to those you refer to as mutts.

 

I don't know what America will do, but I know I won't give another nickle to those sorry-azz ingrates.

 

I have some "empathy," after all.  For me.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Moronium

[Moronium]

Just out of curiosity, Monty, do you, by any kind of wild-azz coincidence, just happen to be of the communist persuasion?

[Moronium]

 There is nothing "objective" about [empathy].  It doesn't reveal how "virtuous" you are.  It basically just reveals what tribe you belong to.  Empathy for one group is generally accompanied by antipathy for another (see, e.g, Monty).

 

It may be worth noting that often the antipathy comes first and is only then followed by the "empathy."

[montgomery]

Just out of curiosity, Monty, do you, by any kind of wild-azz coincidence, just happen to be of the communist persuasion?

No, I'm not a communist, and to the rest of the world, except Americans you could call me a 'socially responsible capitalist'. No 100% capitalist country exists today and neither does a pure socialist country. Although the US is probably the purest form of capitalism practiced in the world. And Trump is trying to make it purer. The rest of the world would see the US's capitalism as 'greedy and extremist capitalism. 

 

Glad you aksed! Aks me for a more complete explanation if you're interested?

[montgomery]

I don't know what America will do, but I know I won't give another nickle to those sorry-azz ingrates.

 

I have some "empathy," after all.  For me.

This is indicative of the problem that is developing in the US in my opinion. People are 'giving' less because they first of all can't afford to give, and secondly because the poor are being demonized in the minds of the Americans who claim that the poor are lazy and have no  ambitions. In truth, Americans' chances of upward mobility mostly don't exist anymore. That's on account of large competitor countries in which people are hugely productive and motivated to work hard. And of course, the failure of the American way.

 

The statistics on all the jobs that Trump has created, tell us that they're mostly jobs at MacD's that pay minimum wage for 4 hours a day.

 

 

 

....... I won't give another nickle to those sorry-azz ingrates.

Edited February 9, 2019 by montgomery

[Moronium]

No, I'm not a communist,

 

Well, ya sound kinda commie to me.

 

Wait, I forgot.  Commies don't label themselves that way any more because it been so thoroughly discredited. These days they use the euphemism "socialist," instead.

 

Are you a "socialist," perchance?

Edited February 9, 2019 by Moronium

[GAHD]

Did you forget to provide the link to 'Against Empathy', or did you want me to find it myself?

 

Some time back this became less about Trump, for me, and more about the people who support him. So I'll ask you if my impression is right: 

 

Both Trump and Bernie appealed to an anti-establishment faction who were in general poor and downtrodden middle class who were fed up with the American way. They weren't Republicans or Democrats but people who represented the huge protest movement which has grown rapidly in the US due to income inequality heavily weighted to the top 1 or 2%. They could have chosen Bernie but they chose Trump because Trump promised more. Then it was discovered that Trump lied, and as is typical of a corporate psychopath, he did pretty much the opposite. .

I put that link down in at least 2 separate posts in this thread so far. Here it is again to make it easier than typing "Against empathy google books" into a search bar, as requested. It makes compelling arguments, no matter how you choose to read the full text ( :pirate: ) I recommend you do.

 

 

No, the public could not have chosen Bernie. The public could only have chosen Hillary. This is because of the way the democratic party super-delegate system works/worked. Anyone who actually payed attention to that time period knows this. I'm thinking this shows you didn't pay attention at the time and need to educate yourself on what is now very recent history, and on the processes of each party. You should also look at the practical differences of each platform: Bernie ran on "more socialism" Trump ran on "fix things making the USA poor and unstable." If you pay attention, he is doing precisely what he said he would. "the [evil] wall" project would also be a huge economic stimulus for working class building it. That's where government mega-projects shine brightest.

 

I'm quite sure you won't be able to accept any of that but I want to run it by you anyway for your comments. The reason being, Trump's audience is captive because Americans are not likely to accept that their system has failed. They've been waving their flag and singing about it's glory and wonder, all the way back to childhood. This is the establishment's way of keeping a hold on the people.

 

Can any politician or political party ever give back to ordinary Americans a piece of the pie? Yes, likely in a lesser way than was possible previously, but the pressures against ever doing so are enormous. It would take a breakthrough on income inequality which would literally require a breakdown of the system. It's spoken of all the time by the followers of the fringe parties but they appear to not have a chance of success in the foreseeable future. And now the main parties are aware of what Bernie or Trump might have done and are doubly cautious and taking more precautions to prevent it from happening.

 

Yes, this relates directly to those "schizophrenic nature of countries as a whole when anthropomorphized" and entrenchment comments I brought up waaaay earlier. (page 1 or 2?) Again, same with Canada, and why I voted Green Party or Pirate Party(look them up and educate yourself) in the past couple elections. Watch as voting time shows up this year "strategic voting" is going to be a buzzword on both major sides again to convince people away from voting 3rd party en-mass.

 

In relation to trump and the USA though, AFAICT he is following though on his platforms as stated.

 

Edit: post merge

 

If Americans ever turn away from their patriotism and flagwaving to look at this:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/duncanmadden/2018/03/27/ranked-the-10-happiest-countries-in-the-world-in-2018/

 

And how those countries got that way through 'socially responsible capitalism', then the American establishment and the American way will become very seriously threatened. This is what Bernie and Trump promised. 

 

Bernie would have most likely been destroyed before he gained any success, and Trump never did intend to deliver. 

DIdn't sweeden just have a rash of bombings and unrest?

 

Edit2: postmerge 2

 

 

In Canada you would likely see much fewer of those mutts begging on the streets. Here's why:

 

The American way includes a great amount of charity, and that extends to them being big tippers in restaurants. Indeed, some US restaurants take away a servers wages and make up the wages with her/his tips.

 

Canadians are less generous when it comes to tipping and charity in general and that's because our system faces social responsibility for the people and makes charity less necessary. In the US, charity is depended upon to even save lives because of no adequate health care. And the statistics show that the US system fails to save many of those lives. (it's another discussion)

 

But in a nutshell, you should be able to see the reason why Americans must absolutely continue to give money to those you refer to as mutts.

Not true. You see less of them because climate makes it deadly. Manitoba has had several confirmed deaths of homeless on the streets this winter alone. Darwin is harsher here. Get paid, hobo-train to somewhere warmer, or die. That's why. I know this following example is personal anecdote and not really evidence but I'll drop it anyways: I'm not a 'classy' individual in the "class knows class" way. I've done a fair share of drinking under a bridge like a troll with the vagrants who came in on a hobo train and have set up tents out of sight of local law enforcement. There's no parties and talking about the problems with life and getting a job and apartment and stable mailing address over a couple bottles of 5star and OE under those bridges or in the nature preserves in the winter. There ARE those kinda vagrant communities in the couple months of summer. Life's hard, but you can't get a junkie straight without a lot of effort. Best I've been able to do is take the edge off and get a select few to do enough day-work at walk-in temp agencies.

 

Edit3: Just to be clear, that "stable mailing address" part is extremely important relating to healthcare. without it the only treatment you'll get in Canada is for imminently life-threatening circumstances. Have you ever had to take antibiotics and were they free? Tooth care, free? Doctor visit without a health-card? Had to replace a health-card? Been taken by ambulance (or even had someone else send an ambulance to you for suspicious circumstances) and seen the bill?

 

Tipping in service work had 10-15% as the standard in Canada not too long ago at all. I know, I was a waiter at Salisbury house in my early teens. That all went downhill after a lot of government sabotage of the economy in the late 90's and early 2k, people just don't have the money to tip anymore. I somehow get the impression you're younger than 25, and are buying into some weird excuses without learning about history. I don't mean "so and so said these five words at 1627h on august 9th 1958" history, I mean the action-consequence general history.

 

Edited February 10, 2019 by GAHD

[montgomery]

Well, ya sound kinda commie to me.

 

Wait, I forgot.  Commies don't label themselves that way any more because it been so thoroughly discredited. These days they use the euphemism "socialist," instead.

 

Are you a "socialist," perchance?

I don't object to being called a communist or a socialist and I've told you why. Socialism within your capitalist system, so little that it is, is always going to be the measure of your country's success. That is, excluding military force and that's no longer possible on a large scale against other nuclear powers. As an example, your health care system will continue to fail the people and their needs until social change comes to your country.

 

And so now, are you a capitalist that pretends to exclude socialism from being a necessary part of your system of government? Or do you want to make government even moreso? 

[montgomery]

 

 

No, the public could not have chosen Bernie. The public could only have chosen Hillary. This is because of the way the democratic party super-delegate system works/worked. Anyone who actually payed attention to that time period knows this. I'm thinking this shows you didn't pay attention at the time and need to educate yourself on what is now very recent history, and on the processes of each party. You should also look at the practical differences of each platform: Bernie ran on "more socialism" Trump ran on "fix things making the USA poor and unstable." If you pay attention, he is doing precisely what he said he would. "the [evil] wall" project would also be a huge economic stimulus for working class building it. That's where government mega-projects shine brightest.

 

I'll have a look at the link. No, I didn't miss the fact that the Dem party used the super delegate scam and other media methods to destroy Bernie's chances. Why would you think that?? Trump appealed to the ordinary people in the exact same way Bernie did, or in other words, he offered them everything they would need to make them once again prosperous Americans. I'm fine going into the details on what I've said but you're a bright guy and you should already know. Counter my assertion with some real differences if you like. But please don't relate to the methods he used that resemble Hitler's methods of demonizing minorities. We're both better than that.

 

 

 

Yes, this relates directly to those "schizophrenic nature of countries as a whole when anthropomorphized" and entrenchment comments I brought up waaaay earlier. (page 1 or 2?) Again, same with Canada, and why I voted Green Party or Pirate Party(look them up and educate yourself) in the past couple elections. Watch as voting time shows up this year "strategic voting" is going to be a buzzword on both major sides again to convince people away from voting 3rd party en-mass.

 

I read no disagreement between us in that. I made the point that the establishment must be defeated and your voting for parties that have chance at all of success is indicative you your frustration and your problems. You know that no party can fix that which ails your country. And the establishment major parties are very happy to keep it that way. That's why I say that a breakthrough must come in order to keep the people in line. Revolution mildly threatened and the crisis is near. The American people must know that their country can offer them more than perhaps any other country in the world. And they can far less, to the point of it being insufficient. Health care?

 

 

In relation to trump and the USA though, AFAICT he is following though on his platforms as stated.

 

He and the R party have created the illusioin of following through for the people, but nothing has changed and Americans are among the most unhappy of the modern first world countries. Refer to the list of the happiest countries in the world.

 

 

 

 

 

DIdn't sweeden just have a rash of bombings and unrest?

 

Yes. The US has created the refugee problem and it's also created the problems with Muslims seeking revenge. 911 serves as a significant example. And the US is spending billions on security but is very fortunate to have an ocean separating it from those seeking revenge. Sans a border, look to France as an example of what could be.

 

 

 

Not true. You see less of them because climate makes it deadly. Manitoba has had several confirmed deaths of homeless on the streets this winter alone. Darwin is harsher here. Get paid, hobo-train to somewhere warmer, or die. That's why. I know this following example is personal anecdote and not really evidence but I'll drop it anyways: I'm not a 'classy' individual in the "class knows class" way. I've done a fair share of drinking under a bridge like a troll with the vagrants who came in on a hobo train and have set up tents out of sight of local law enforcement. There's no parties and talking about the problems with life and getting a job and apartment and stable mailing address over a couple bottles of 5star and OE under those bridges or in the nature preserves in the winter. There ARE those kinda vagrant communities in the couple months of summer. Life's hard, but you can't get a junkie straight without a lot of effort. Best I've been able to do is take the edge off and get a select few to do enough day-work at walk-in temp agencies.

 

I have no real disagreement with you on some people can't be helped and won't be helped. But you've taken my comment out of my intended context. Maybe I didn't make my point sufficently? Americans need to depend more on charity than other modern countries and this is due to your style of capitalism. Other modern countries and especially the happiest countries in the world have accepted their social responsibility to their people. This I illustrated with the example of America's horrendous health care situation. And of course, all the other factors that are lacking which allow the huge income inequality in the US. Socialism will always have to be a part of all captialist systems. The US hasn't come to terms with that fact yet, and Trump pushed his agenda to make it even worse.

 

 

Edit3: Just to be clear, that "stable mailing address" part is extremely important relating to healthcare. without it the only treatment you'll get in Canada is for imminently life-threatening circumstances. Have you ever had to take antibiotics and were they free? Tooth care, free? Doctor visit without a health-card? Had to replace a health-card? Been taken by ambulance (or even had someone else send an ambulance to you for suspicious circumstances) and seen the bill?

 

Far too much to deal with on this thread but I'm more than happy to have a full discussion with any American on health care. I'm very surprised that any American would every want to initiate such! But in a nutshell for now, Canada's is rated as being quite a bit better.

 

 

Tipping in service work had 10-15% as the standard in Canada not too long ago at all. I know, I was a waiter at Salisbury house in my early teens. That all went downhill after a lot of government sabotage of the economy in the late 90's and early 2k, people just don't have the money to tip anymore. I somehow get the impression you're younger than 25, and are buying into some weird excuses without learning about history. I don't mean "so and so said these five words at 1627h on august 9th 1958" history, I mean the action-consequence general history.

 

I think you're quite aware that I'm much older than 25 and I take that as it was intended, as an insult. Canadians don't tip as much as Americans and we don't allow restaurant owners to steal wages and replace the wages with tips.All quite easily substantiated if you wish to pursue that further.

 

To the topic: Trump is doing to America the exact opposite of what could bring it up on the scale of happiness. (Happiness needs to be defined as to how it's achieved) And that's because Trump's mental disorder is exactly in sync with making his country more unhappy. He's a corporate psychopath and his agenda if to further enrich the 1or 2%.

 

So far it's Americans' choice to continue to allow it to happen. The more rightist forms of capitalism will always tend that way to some degree. Canada's Conservative party does but it's ambitions are curtailed every 4 years or so by the people, who do have a choice. Then the pendulum swings back slightly. In the US, the pendulum has swung to the extreme right and there's no choice of a political party to bring it back. Vote Libertarian or Green or Pirate or whatever?

 

Edited February 10, 2019 by montgomery

[GAHD]

Socialism within your capitalist system, so little that it is, is always going to be the measure of your country's success....As an example, your health care system will continue to fail the people and their needs until social change comes to your country.

I'm not sure you understand what you're talking about here. You DO know that most major medical issues with the government officials in Canada are treated in the USA, right?

EG: https://www.medpagetoday.com/cardiology/acutecoronarysyndrome/18279

That's not a rare thing either. The healthcare in the USA is better quality and costs less than the equivalent in Canada...

[montgomery]

Gahd, I spend about 15 minutes reading Bloom and I decided that I didn't have the time to hear it right through. So I searched for and found the following link in order to get a quick understanding of what he's on about.

 

The first comment in the comments section told me that it wasn't really worth my time. And the second comment told me why the short video served as enough of an understanding of his book that I needed. 

 

In essence, the first comment by an authority with equal or greater credentials, saved me a day of reading. Bloom refused to stand his ground on his book, as you will see. 

 

I won't just leave it at that; I'll search out some book reviews, but I think I've done your request enough justice under the circumstances and so I won't read his book.

[montgomery]

I'm not sure you understand what you're talking about here. You DO know that most major medical issues with the government officials in Canada are treated in the USA, right?

EG: https://www.medpagetoday.com/cardiology/acutecoronarysyndrome/18279

That's not a rare thing either. The healthcare in the USA is better quality and costs less than the equivalent in Canada...

 

 

I'm very aware of the total debate and  the exact talking point you've given me. And again I'll say that you are introducing a topic that would take this discussion on Trump far off-topic. We need a new thread. I'll start one now.

Edited February 10, 2019 by GAHD
fixed your misquote, again. stop doing that. you are misrepresenting me when you do.

[GAHD]

I'm very aware of the total debate and  the exact talking point you've given me. And again I'll say that you are introducing a topic that would take this discussion on Trump far off-topic. We need a new thread. I'll start one now.

That's right, it is, why YOU introduced it two posts back is a bit annoying for sure.

 

I was trying to respond to your horrible mess of quote -tags in post 97 as well but whatever you did to cause that mess  is too much trouble.

 

Long reply deleted and cut short: I'm Canadian, if you bothered to read my profile you would easily know that. Your profile doesn't list age, and the way you talk about things with a very obvious lack of recent perspective leads me ti guess your age at less than 25.

 

You can't measure happiness in a reliable way, that is a silly digression to try and doge away from real talking points. Lazy slight of hand like that is part of what makes me guestimate your age as low. :)

 

Edit: Oh, and Green Party and Pirate Party are CANADIAN political parties. Maybe you should educate yourself a bit about the political landscape of our country before you talk hot air about others?

[montgomery]

That's right, it is, why YOU introduced it two posts back is a bit annoying for sure.

 

I was trying to respond to your horrible mess of quote -tags in post 97 as well but whatever you did to cause that mess  is too much trouble.

 

Long reply deleted and cut short: I'm Canadian, if you bothered to read my profile you would easily know that. Your profile doesn't list age, and the way you talk about things with a very obvious lack of recent perspective leads me ti guess your age at less than 25.

 

You can't measure happiness in a reliable way, that is a silly digression to try and doge away from real talking points. Lazy slight of hand like that is part of what makes me guestimate your age as low. :)

 

Edit: Oh, and Green Party and Pirate Party are CANADIAN political parties. Maybe you should educate yourself a bit about the political landscape of our country before you talk hot air about others?

 

 

Your issue with me seem to be mostly centered on the health care issue. I've read your comments and understand your position and I'm happy to revisit and discuss them on the new thread I've started on health care.

 

If you have issues with me and my comments that pertain more to this thread on the examination of Trump, then please do pursue those issues. I will however continue to submit that happiness is most likely the best indication of a country's success, or lack of success. I'm all for entertaining any other factors if you're interested in promoting the US for some reason.

 

My apologies for messing up quote tags. My only excuse is that I'm currently involved with a couple of different formats on other forums.

 

So I'll fix in my head that you're a Canadian. Your promotion of Trump has caused my replies to wander! Why, I do have to wonder because even the most rightist of Canadians, it would seem to me, can't be rightist enough to be supportive of that kind of evil, in my opinion! I presumed! But I may have learned something worthwhile from you with your support of Trump?

Edited February 10, 2019 by montgomery

[GAHD]

Monty. fix that post yourself. Don't put your words in my quote. Thank you in advance.

Interesting news

[GAHD]

 

...I will however continue to submit that happiness is most likely the best indication of a country's success, or lack of success. I'm all for entertaining any other factors if you're interested in promoting the US for some reason.

 

I dunno. This kinda thing seems to be the standard. http://hdr.undp.org/en/countries

 

 

 

My apologies for messing up quote tags. My only excuse is that I'm currently involved with a couple of different formats on other forums.

Thank you for fixing it. That kind of thing causes many problems with the reply button, and other forum views. It's also hard to seperate who said what for anyone following the topic. Annoying. Thanks again.

 

 

So I'll fix in my head that you're a Canadian. Your promotion of Trump has caused my replies to wander! Why, I do have to wonder because even the most rightist of Canadians, it would seem to me, can't be rightist enough to be supportive of that kind of evil, in my opinion! I presumed! But I may have learned something worthwhile from you with your support of Trump?

 

Post I made above this with TRM video on youtube lists a few reasons why, actually. Now you use the word "evil" without any valid reasoning for it. How is he evil? I think I made the same kind of question waaay back on page 1 with claims that he's "racist." Proof for it, or are you blowing smoke cause you're jelous?