CRIME--What can we do?

[questor]

Our criminal system is much like our educational system..expensive and a failure. a large part of the problem comes from groups of people who dislike severe punishment and who want political correctness in schools. capital punishment is headed out, no matter how heinous the crime and in schools we can't have a meritocracy for fear of offending the less

ambitious. since we have over a million people in our penal system and more on the way,

and since by all measures our penal system does not really punish or rehabilitate, are there some workable solutions to our increasing expense and frustration of maintaining a failed system?

[nemo]

...are there some workable solutions to our increasing expense and frustration of maintaining a failed system?

With regard to the penal system, not really. With very few exceptions, the prison population is treated similarly to cattle - feed them, keep them and do it cheap. Yeah, they get more amenities than I'd like to see them have, but if one television can reliably keep 50 inmates immobilized (sort of like my kids) for two hours, that frees up manpower requirements for the guards - whose pay costs the state considerably more than the television. At this point, the only cheaper alternative to America's prisons would be a cross between alcatraz and "Lord of the Flies": designate an island to ship criminals to, and have a patrol boat shoot anyone who tries to float away. I don't see Amnesty International giving this the green light anytime soon.

 

A major expense incurred within our prison system is the legal ramifications of a death sentence. Appeals *will* go on for years, at public cost, and the prisoner will need to be fed and clothed while this is ongoing. Somewhere on this site, I seem to remember a post describing the cost of a death sentence actually being higher than a life sentence. Perhaps if a conviction by a jury of your peers also carried with it a limited number of potential appeals, this could be remedied.

 

Another thought would be outsourcing our prison population... There are plenty of Third World nations that would appreciate the income, and are not quite as wrapped up in making sure prisoners have clean pillowcases to rest their heads on. Outside of transportation costs, a prison most other countries would cost far less than running one ourselves.

[pgrmdave]

Violence begets violence, anger begets anger. While a criminal justice system which used the death penalty for every crime would cut down on crime, it would not strike at the true root of the problem. What we need is a system which does not merely stop people from committing a crime out of fear, but one which stops people from ever wanting to commit a crime. We need a system for getting to people when they are young, and stopping them from wanting to hurt people, in any way. A system for prevention works very well, when the programs have the money and manpower to back it up. A system of punishment only creates an atmosphere of fear, and anger, which lead to a person disliking normal society, and turning to crime easier.

[nemo]

What we need is a system which does not merely stop people from committing a crime out of fear, but one which stops people from ever wanting to commit a crime.

Even in small groups of people, if you have something desirable, at least one person will want to take it from you. No legal architecture will ever counter greed, envy or rage. Assuming these things will always exist, and that at least some portion of society will act upon them (indeed, this is the basis of captialism), how do you deal with those who act upon these emotions without regard for others?

[alxian]

kill all the cirminals who give up all rights to live in society when they give up following the rules..

 

ok maybe not kill them, but banish them to other lands, lands that will accept convicted crimiinals. like australia.

[Cedars]

Our criminal system is much like our educational system..expensive and a failure. a large part of the problem comes from groups of people who dislike severe punishment and who want political correctness in schools. capital punishment is headed out, no matter how heinous the crime and in schools we can't have a meritocracy for fear of offending the less

ambitious. since we have over a million people in our penal system and more on the way,

and since by all measures our penal system does not really punish or rehabilitate, are there some workable solutions to our increasing expense and frustration of maintaining a failed system?

 

Could you illustrate what the failed system is, as you see it? I am unsure how you intended this to be applied. You seem to be lumping the low level pot dealer with the murderous child rapist. I do seperate crime levels. I do not advocate the death penalty for petty theft. Having 1million people in the penal system does not indicate a failed system. It could also imply higher law enforcement success rates.

[questor]

you will never stop crime as long as you have people who consider themselves victims. this mind-set gives them a perceived right to do anything they wish against the perceived

oppressors. this notion is enabled by the do-gooders who perpetuate criminality by

condoning the idea of societal guilt. if every person would be responsible for his own actions and had good morality, crime would almost disappear. a liberal leaning society prevents this from happening.

several of you have touched upon a good solution for our penal system. here are my

suggestions.

keep the jails for short term incarceration. close all the prisons. this would save million or even billions of dollars. buy an island such as Grand Bahama. pay all the current inhabitants

$1,000,000. to sell their island and move away. this one time expenditure would be less than we pay for two years of our current penal expenses.

stock the island with fruit trees, vegetable and grain seeds and diverse livestock.

send all violent criminals, sex perverts, murderers, and people committing armed crimes

to the island.

if their spouses wish to go with them, OK , but they can't come back.

there will be no guards, no weapons, no jails. they can form their own society however

they wish.

they can't escape because the island will be patrolled by an aircraft carrier and helicopters which will shoot or bomb any vessel leaving the island.

refurbish the penitentiaries as schools for vocational trades or as special needs schooling.

this would save us billions of dollars, rid society of those who can't live peaceably and solve the liberal problem of instituting the death sentence.

[C1ay]

IMO, it is the evolution of criminal rights which has had the greatest effect on our system. Would be criminals are no longer afraid of the punishment. Criminals no longer get 20 years of hard labor and premeditated murderers that are guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt seldom get the death penalty anymore. Quite of the few of the later actually become eligible for and do receive parole. Compounding the problem is the fact that the system is overcrowded and understaffed.

 

I think one of the first steps that should be considered is the legalization of drugs. This will kill the black market for them and make it easy for those that want to fry their brain to do so without creating peripheral victims that are the result of thefts and assaults to feed the drug users habit. This would also free as many as half of the prison beds we have for violent criminals. This is a huge part of the prison crowd and a huge expense to taxpayers to punish those that are only hurting themselves. The drug war cannot be won so we should just eliminate the profit in it and decriminalize it. At most, hard core drug dealers should be put on house arrest with one of those dog collars that shocks the piss out of them if they try to leave. They should not tie up prison beds or taxpayer dollars though.

 

Make violent criminals serve their time and make them perform hard labor while they're at it. Prison should not be a cake walk, it should be a living hell that no one wants to endure. No TV, no weight rooms, no basketball courts, no enjoyment what-so-ever. 10 year punishments of leisure in the current system could be converted to 3 or 4 years of hell with more deterrent effect of those that would choose to gamble with a return to the system. Cruel and unusual punishment should be defined relative to the crime. There's nothing wrong with making a guy turn boulders into gravel for 4 ro 5 years as a result of some violent crime he's committed.

 

I think we should reconsider the burden of proof and the appeals process. Certain people are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and deserve to appeal their convictions, people, i.e. juries and prosecuters, do make mistakes and where the evidence is weak or circumstantial we should give these people a path of vindication. Certain offenders are guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt though. Offenders like those caught on video in the act they are accused of. I see no point in offering a route of appeals to those that are undoubtedly guilty. This just ties up the court in a pointless process at taxpayer expense. This is also the only group where capital punishment should be an option. There should be zero doubt where capital punishment is applied.

 

Just a few of my thoughts on the situation...

[infamous]

 

Make violent criminals serve their time and make them perform hard labor while they're at it. Prison should not be a cake walk, it should be a living hell that no one wants to endure. No TV, no weight rooms, no basketball courts, no enjoyment what-so-ever. ...

My thoughts exactly C1ay, I truly believe some people commit crimes just raise their standard of living. Hot showers, clean clothes, three squares a day, pool, color TV, free room and board, health insurance, and who's paying the bill at the end of the day? The very people that these criminals victimized.

[questor]

C1AY, good thoughts all. however, how do we achieve the final disposition of the people convicted of felonies? you have given several ideas, but i don't think you have gone to the ultimate solution..one that would make a potential criminal think a long time before committing a crime.

[C1ay]

C1AY, good thoughts all. however, how do we achieve the final disposition of the people convicted of felonies? you have given several ideas, but i don't think you have gone to the ultimate solution..one that would make a potential criminal think a long time before committing a crime.

How about we publish their misery? Something like the 'Hard Labor' channel on cable so would-bes can see what their actions will earn.

[infamous]

How about we publish their misery? Something like the 'Hard Labor' channel on cable so would-bes can see what their actions will earn.

And how about taking the money we'll save by letting drug offenders back into society and spend it on better education. Sounds like a much better investment in my opinion.

[CraigD]

... buy an island such as Grand Bahama. pay all the current inhabitants

$1,000,000. to sell their island and move away. this one time expenditure would be less than we pay for two years of our current penal expenses.

stock the island with fruit trees, vegetable and grain seeds and diverse livestock.

send all violent criminals, sex perverts, murderers, and people committing armed crimes

to the island.

if their spouses wish to go with them, OK , but they can't come back.

there will be no guards, no weapons, no jails. they can form their own society however

they wish.

they can't escape because the island will be patrolled by an aircraft carrier and helicopters which will shoot or bomb any vessel leaving the island.

refurbish the penitentiaries as schools for vocational trades or as special needs schooling.

this would save us billions of dollars, rid society of those who can't live peaceably and solve the liberal problem of instituting the death sentence.

I saw that movie, erh, movies. It was great! (the others, just so-so).

 

What I especially like about your plan is the "Sex perverts" clause. I'm pretty sure a bit of research would turn up a prosecutor and/or judge somewhere who would consider any given non-virgin a kind of pervert (and, with a bit more work, a few who would convict virgins), and send them to the island. Insider knowledge of this would allow me to make a killing buying their defaulted mortgages. Of course, such activity might be considered criminal, but since its clearly not violent, perverse, or armed, I'd only need endure a fine or a short jail term.

[questor]

my proposal differs from the ''devils island'' in that there are no guards, no punishment by authorities, and no participation from our society. they are on their own, to create their own society. it would be an interesting social experiment as well as getting these misfits

out of our society, where they have shown they do not belong.

[questor]

one other punishment i have yet to discuss is the sterilization of all people convicted of child abuse, child pornography, rape, armed attacks, and felonies involving force.

this would put brakes upon their vicious activities and ensure their genetic detritus does not proliferate.

[infamous]

my proposal differs from the ''devils island'' in that there are no guards, no punishment by authorities, and no participation from our society. they are on their own, to create their own society. it would be an interesting social experiment as well as getting these misfits

out of our society, where they have shown they do not belong.

Sounds like your propossing something akin to the French penal colony of New Caledonia. Suppose one gets sent there mistakenly, that is, convicted of a crime falsely. Rather severe punishment for someone innocent to find themselves amoung thieves and murderers. Consider this also, with little or no supervision at this facility, how would you feel if it were you and while you were serving your time, you were murdered?

[questor]

the people sent to the island would have been convicted on incontrovertible evidence. they would be able to hire layers to reconsider evidence or have DNA tests or all of the same procedures they have in the states. there would be no difference in their opportunity to prove their innocence and since they are not in cells or being executed, i would say they have a better deal than here.