CRIME--What can we do?

[infamous]

i would say they have a better deal than here.

I'm not so sure? Without proper supervision, they would be at the mercy of the other inmates. At least in a supervised facility, there is some protection provided. I'll confess it is not perfect but at the least, it offers the inmate some recourse.

[Fishteacher73]

C1AY, good thoughts all. however, how do we achieve the final disposition of the people convicted of felonies? you have given several ideas, but i don't think you have gone to the ultimate solution..one that would make a potential criminal think a long time before committing a crime.

 

It seems to me that you are heavily pushing a death sentence... Way to many studies have shown that it IS NOT a deterrent to crime. Some studies indicate that there is even a spike in crime after exicutions.

 

All this does seem to ignore the Constitution a bit...A little thing called the Eighth Amendment..

 

 

As for had labor...That seems reasonable. Have the prison system support itself. Just be careful against the abuse of cheap labor.

[CraigD]

one other punishment i have yet to discuss is the sterilization of all people convicted of child abuse, child pornography, rape, armed attacks, and felonies involving force.

this would put brakes upon their vicious activities and ensure their genetic detritus does not proliferate.

I’m unaware that there exists any scientific evidence that these behaviors have a genetic origin.

 

There is, however, reasonable evidence that general intelligence is heritable, and a compelling correlation between low intelligence and criminal behavior. Therefore, your plan would be more effective if it required the sterilization of all young people who demonstrate poor academic test performance. Given the US’s existing require public education infrastructure, this could be easily and inexpensively implemented using existing standardized testing programs and school health staff.

 

In any event, such a plan is in clear violation of all Constitutional Law precident – many states have attempted to legislate or regulate judicial sterilization, as early as the 18th century and as late as 1998. All such attempts have been sternly and immediately rebuffed by courts ranging from the state circuit level to the US Supreme.

 

Historically, not all nations have been unsuccessful in implementing the sort of penalties you propose. Most notably, Germany under the leadership of Adolph Hitler implemented successful large-scale sterilization programs of legally convicted homosexuals, pedophiles, and, of course, Jews, who the state considered to be of especially poor moral character.

[C1ay]

It seems to me that you are heavily pushing a death sentence... Way to many studies have shown that it IS NOT a deterrent to crime.

It was when it was public and those that might be affected could witness what might happen to them if they followed the same path of crime. In today's society, the penalty itself is only witnessed by the victim and some of the upstanding members of society, not those members of society that need to be deterred.

 

While I have been an ardent supporter in the past, my support is waivering in light of the many innocents on death row that have been vindicated by new methods of investigation. If we implemented a new burden of proof, guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt, it might be fitting for those criminals convicted under the new standard. It would still only be effective as a deterrent if local thugs and gang members were rounded up to witness it. I do not see a legitimate case for compulsory viewing though, so that in itself would likely be found to be unjust.

 

IMO it is an outdated, ineffective deterrent to crime. It also bears a horrendous expense on the taxpayer since the taxpayer pays for both the defense and the prosecution. What incentive do competing lawyers paid from the same kitty have to keep the costs down in their slow, arduous climb to the pinnacle of the system at the highest court? It is much cheaper to just house the offender for life considering the evolution of our legal system and that of criminal rights (what an oxymoron).

[CraigD]

… While I have been an ardent supporter [of the death penalty] in the past, my support is waivering in light of the many innocents on death row that have been vindicated by new methods of investigation. …IMO it is an outdated, ineffective deterrent to crime. It also bears a horrendous expense on the taxpayer since the taxpayer pays for both the defense and the prosecution. … It is much cheaper to just house the offender for life considering the evolution of our legal system and that of criminal rights (what an oxymoron).

As a long-time opponent of execution for among these same reasons, I’m gladdened to see you reconsidering your position.

 

If laws and sentencing policy, and the prisons were changed to clearly distinguish between inmates being punished, and, ideally, rehabilitated, and those who pose sufficient risk to general society to be forever separated from it, not only could cost be reduced, but the effectiveness of rehabilitation improved.

 

Although death row inmates are a tiny minority in the US federal and various states’ prison systems (currently about 3,300, with 59 executions in 2004), the money spent on them, primarily payments for legal services, could be used to dramatically enhance prison educational resources. My personal experience (6 months as an instructor in the VA prison system), coupled with data (20 years of data indicating that prisoners who obtain a GED high school diploma are roughly 20% less likely to be reimprisoned), leads me to conclude that education is 1 of the 2 most effective means of preventing criminal recidivism – the more, the better. The other is post-release job placement. Both of these programs, appeared to me to be woefully underfunded, mismanaged, and generally inadequate.

 

Interestingly and surprisingly, data indicates that vocational/technical education/training – shop, auto mechanics, etc – actually increases the incidence of reimprisonment. All education, it would appear, is not equal.

 

I’ve encountered a lot of hostility from people concerning inmate education, especially higher education. Many law-abiding people who sacrifice comfort and opportunity in order to pay for their own or their children’s education are understandably upset that a convicted criminal is “rewarded” with access to the same resources for which they’ve paid dearly. My response is 2-fold:

• Education should be more highly state subsidized, making it affordable for all people
  
• Prisons should offer only K-12 education – no voc/tech, no under/postgraduate higher - but what they offer should be very high quality, and adequate to prepare students for college and/or employment
  

Lifetime incarcerated inmates (there should be no execution, only lifetime incarceration) should be “warehoused” without access to education or more than the basic necessities required to preserve physical and (reasonable) mental health. However:

• Judicial processes to exonerate and release people wrongly incarcerated should be legislatively mandated, well-funded, and effective – currently, this is done exclusively by private individuals and organizations.
  
• The exonerated should have the right to bring civil suit against the state for lost wages and financial damage – this right currently does not exist.
  
• People who purposefully conceal exonerating evidence, be they elected officials, judges, prosecutors, witnesses, victims or their families, should be criminally prosecuted – this is currently never done.

[infamous]

 

If laws and sentencing policy, and the prisons were changed to clearly distinguish between inmates being punished, and, ideally, rehabilitated, and those who pose sufficient risk to general society to be forever separated from it, not only could cost be reduced, but the effectiveness of rehabilitation improved.

 

 

Excellent post CraigD, I especially like the concept stated in the above paragraph.

[Happeh]

Our criminal system is much like our educational system..expensive and a failure. a large part of the problem comes from groups of people who dislike severe punishment and who want political correctness in schools. capital punishment is headed out, no matter how heinous the crime and in schools we can't have a meritocracy for fear of offending the less

ambitious. since we have over a million people in our penal system and more on the way,

and since by all measures our penal system does not really punish or rehabilitate, are there some workable solutions to our increasing expense and frustration of maintaining a failed system?

 

I think your premise is flawed. You say the justice system fails, as if it is the fault of the justice system.

 

I believe the obvious miscarriages of justice are purposeful. It is part of a grand plan to weaken and destroy American culture. Similar to the way the USA has destroyed the culture in Iraq or the Israelis have destroyed the culture in Palestine.

 

It is a political plan to make the society and it's peoples weak so they can be easily controlled.

 

To address the hysteria before it starts. Think about it. This is 2005. Humans have been around for 1000's of years. We have technology and supposedly understand all about human beings. We have had TV for 60 years. TV allows us to keep a visual and aural recording of exactly what people have done for the past 60 years.

 

But for some reason, with all that history, all the technology, all that learning, they still cannot figure out how to run a society properly. I don't believe it. It is the silliest thing I have ever heard. As silly as my government telling me there is not enough money to fix the potholes in the streets, then spending billions of dollars to go attack a foriegn country. Those politicians chose to spend money on war instead of fixing the streets. There is no mistake or accident or incompetence or misunderstanding. They know exactly what will happen if they spend all the money on killing, but they do it anyways.

 

They know exactly what will happen if the justice system works the way it does, but they go ahead and let it happen anyway.

[Happeh]

Another thought would be outsourcing our prison population... There are plenty of Third World nations that would appreciate the income, and are not quite as wrapped up in making sure prisoners have clean pillowcases to rest their heads on. Outside of transportation costs, a prison most other countries would cost far less than running one ourselves.

 

Arrogant fool. You have obviously never been arrested. People who have never been arrested live in a fantasy world.

 

When you get arrested, and the police beat you up, then they put you in a filthy cell that is 12 by 12 with 35 other people, with a small 8 by 4 inch gap for ventilation, a toilet that sits there like a throne, in full view of the 35 people and the police, when you are threatened by the truly violent and mental, then you will sing a different tune about jails. Then you will be talking about how they need to be clean and the prisoners treated well and the police stable and good people.

 

How many stories of regular people getting thrown in jail, then getting murdered, crippled or anally raped do you need to hear before you realize that it could happen to you? There is an entire catalog of movies, TV shows and news stories about children and adults being put in jail for some small crime, then ending up dead or raped. I think the most odd one was the movie with Richard Crenna. He played a policeman I think who got thrown in jail for something or other. He got the anal rape and the rest of the movie was about him dealing with it.

[questor]

i have not metioned the death penalty on this thread, although i believe in it myself. the only problem is that many people on death row have been found to be innocent. for those that were guilty beyond question ( and there are many ), death is certainly a deterrent to them. the island i proposed was for the very purpose of not putting to death those that may eventually prove to be innocent. as far as the condtions on the island, they could become quite difficult to bear, that is why being sent to the island would be a large deterrent. it would contribute to the peace of our country and provide a place where the unsuitable can form a society that fits their personalities. there would be communication between the island and the states, and residents of the island could continue to pursue

pardon or reversal of their sentences. if a tyrant emerges, it would be simple to take him out.

[questor]

a few comments on sterilization. a pedophile supposedly cannot change his urges and will sin again, possibly murder. why not sterilize him so his urges are muted? would this not be a help to him as well as society? does the world need his progeny? as far as people who kill children or abuse them, why should they ever be allowed to have more? their temperament becomes more gentle after sterilization. people who are full of rage hurt themselves as well as society, why not commit the relatively easy personality change?

[questor]

some people cannot offer a solution to a problem, because the solution is distasteful. in the end, if you wish to prevent someone from doing something there are only two choices

1. change the persons mind

2. kill him

this is harsh, but it is also true. many people cannot face truth.

[Wizdumb]

If you can't beat em, join em. Har har.

[infamous]

Arrogant fool. .

There is no good reason to call people names Happeh, go to the FAQ page and read our rules.

[CraigD]

a few comments on sterilization. a pedophile supposedly cannot change his urges and will sin again, possibly murder. why not sterilize him so his urges are muted? would this not be a help to him as well as society? does the world need his progeny? as far as people who kill children or abuse them, why should they ever be allowed to have more? their temperament becomes more gentle after sterilization. people who are full of rage hurt themselves as well as society, why not commit the relatively easy personality change?

Can you present any data to support your claims that sterilization (I assume you mean castration) reduces crime?

[dirty.deeds]

I personally think that the criminal justice system is well and truelly screwed up... But you have to look at both sides of the story .......If you want to know more about it go to http://www.bernardomahoney.com .......... Bernie has been on both sides of the law over the years and is always up for a chat about the rights and wrongs of the justice system..Read his books and it shows a different light on the criminal justice system in the u.k

[infamous]

kill all the cirminals who give up all rights to live in society when they give up following the rules..

 

.

An eye for an eye only leads to more blindness.....................Margaret Atwood

[questor]

in the year 3005, it may be safe to assume that the world will be overpopulated and

resources will be depleted. at that time some type of population control will be necessary. what type control will be the easiest and best for society? will criminals be allowed to propagate at will ? will welfare recipients be allowed to have 5 illegitimate children, thereby continuing the welfare cycle? will drug addicts continue to produce drug dependent babies? will abusive parents be allowed to continue to reproduce? what could be done when it is absolutely necessary to curtail population, and why should not the same measures be applied now ?