GOD

[servantofGod]

hi. i just joined this forum specifically for this topic, so i hope what i say will impact you very much.

 

if u would like 2 ways of looking at Christianity on a better lever, here they are...

 

1.) Christianity makes more sense than other religions once u no more than the basics of it.

other religions are based on the belief that they have the ability within themselves to perfect

themselves once they go thru attempt after attempt in reincarnation to achieve eternal life after

death. but Christianity is based on the fact that we no that as humans we cannot perfect

ourselves. God knows this also. therefore, He sent Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice for the

forgiveness of our sins so that we dont have to be perfect.

 

2.) in the Old Testament (a.k.a. the torah), every time a family goes to the tmeple they have to

sacrifice a physically unflawed animal, such as a sheep, for the forgiveness of their sins. this

is to be a reminder to the family that blood must be shed for the forgiveness of their sins. on a

larger scale, Aaron, the high priest, and brother of Moses, would annualy go into the holy of

holys to sacrifice the most perfect lamb in all of israel to God for the forgiveness of all the

sins of all the people of israel for the entire year. it had to be the most perfect lamb because

it was the reprensitative of what all the lambs should be like.on an even larger scale, Jesus was the ultimate human self-sacrifice for the forgiveness of all the sins of all man-kind for eternity (for those who love Him and know Him). only Jesus culd fulfill this role because He was the only human, begotten not made, that was perfect, and overcame temptation and sin every time it confronted Him. Jesus is the reprensitative of wut all humans should strive to be like, and it is written in the Bible. so we must strive to walk as Jesus walked among us on a daily basis. Amen.

 

in reference to explanation number 1, religions that are not monotheistic really barely make any sense at all. the fate of the world cannot rest on the shoulders of more than one god. that would be like trying to give absolute power over a nation to more than one dictator. also, reincarnation makes little or no sense also. a soul cannot be reused!!! that would be like trying to eat the same apple twice. the apple is eaten, and an hour and a half later, it still exists, but in a different form, and it can no long be an apple again.

 

i hope what i have shared here has made some kind of an impact on u. trust God and put your faith in Him!!!

 

Your brother in Christ,

Andrew

feel free to email me with any questions at [email protected] i'm only 14, but i have a fairly good knowledge of religions.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: servantofGod

hi. i just joined this forum specifically for this topic, so i hope what i say will impact you very much.

Welcome to the discussion. I certainly hope your not here to tell us all that since we did not prove that your god does not exist, he does!

 

1.) Christianity makes more sense than other religions once u no more than the basics of it.

It will be interesting to see if you really have more knowledge of Christianity than others of us here, on either side of the issue. It is interesting that you choose to use such an extremely selfrighteous claim right off the bat. Perhaps this is just an indication of your being a Christian. As we see that here all the time from Christians and I regularly point out this inherent selfrighteous attitude Christianity promotes.

 

other religions are based on the belief that they have the ability within themselves to perfect

themselves once they go thru attempt after attempt in reincarnation to achieve eternal life after death.

And we immediately see you exposing your ignorace of other religions. By far, the vast majority of the world's population that are other than Christian do NOT have a reincarnation belief. THis leaves little hope for any value to the rest of your claims. But let's look at them further....

 

but Christianity is based on the fact that we no that as humans we cannot perfect

ourselves. God knows this also. therefore, He sent Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice for the

forgiveness of our sins so that we dont have to be perfect.

PROVE that the biblical Jesus actually existed. Use outside contemporary eyewitness written reports to validate the stories in the bible.

 

So far you have failed miserably to even start proving ANYTHING. Nor have you shown ANY knowledge of Christianity beyond anyone I have had discussions with here. In fact you show LESS knowledge and logic than most of the other Christians here. Contrary to your conceited self promotion you started with.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: servantofGod

2.) in the Old Testament (a.k.a. the torah),

The Torah is also known as the Chumash, Pentateuch or Five Books of Moses.

Bereshit - Genesis

Shemot - Exodus

Vayikra - Leviticus

Bamidbar - Numbers

Devarim - Deuteronomy

 

The Old Testament consists of GENESIS, EXODUS, LEVITICUS, NUMBERS, DEUTERONOMY, JOSHUA, JUDGES, RUTH, 1 SAMUEL, 2 SAMUEL, 1 KINGS, 2 KINGS, 1 CHRONICLES, 2 CHRONICLES, EZRA, NEHEMIAH, ESTHER, JOB, PSALMS, PROVERBS, ECCLESIASTES, SONG OF SOLOMON, ISAIAH, JEREMIAH, LAMENTATIONS, EZEKIEL, DANIEL, HOSEA, JOEL, AMOS, OBADIAH, JONAH, MICAH, NAHUM, HABAKKUK, ZEPHANIAH, HAGGAI, ZECHARIAH, MALACHI.

 

In case counting is a challenge for you, that is MORE THAN FIVE!

 

So far you have shown us that you are conceited and selfrighteous. Do not understand anything about other religions nor even your own. Should we go on?

 

every time a family goes to the tmeple they have to sacrifice a physically unflawed animal, such as a sheep, for the forgiveness of their sins.

 

Animal Sacrifice was outlawed in later parts...

 

 

What I want is mercy, not sacrifice. (Hos. 6:6)

 

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me?" sayeth the Lord. "I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs or of he-goats...bring no more vain oblations.... Your new moon and your appointed feasts my soul hateth;...and when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood. (Isa. 1:11-16)

 

I hate, I despise your feasts, and I will take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Yea, though you offer me burnt-offerings and your meal offerings, I will not accept them neither will I regard the peace-offerings of your fat beasts. Take thou away from me the noise of thy song; and let Me not hear the melody of thy psalteries. But let justice well up as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. (Amos 5:21-4)

 

Once more we see that you do not know what you are talking about... keep going!

 

Jesus was...

 

AFTER you PROVE the biblical Jesus actually existed, we can discuss what he was or was not. Until then, we have no reason to discuss this mythical person as if they were real.

 

in reference to explanation number 1, religions that are not monotheistic really barely make any sense at all.

 

Hahahahahaha..... The only difference between your outright rejection of and denegration of other god beliefs and mine is I apply the same concepts to all gods equally and for the same reasons. I merely add one more god myth to the same list you have. In fact I find many other religions to make far more sense, and be far less harmful to society than Christianity. Earth based religions tend to no have so many absurd statements of faith, nor a published source of revelation that is so totally idiotic and abhorant at the same time!

 

the fate of the world cannot rest on the shoulders of more than one god. that would be like trying to give absolute power over a nation to more than one dictator.

 

Nor can it rest on the shoulders of a non-existent sky god.

 

also, reincarnation makes little or no sense also.

 

Recycling is a good idea! You post makes little or no sense.

 

a soul cannot be reused!!!

 

PROVE a soul exists and we can discuss it further.

 

that would be like trying to eat the same apple twice.

 

Ask a cow.

 

i hope what i have shared here has made some kind of an impact on u. trust God an

[IrishEyes]

Irisheyes will be proud of your upbringing. Such a strong Christian.

 

Very low blow, especially considering I was having the same ache in my side as you were while I read that post!

[vinny]

Religion as a whole, at least ORGANISED religion, is a laughable prospect. Religion is meant to be an individuals unbiased beliefs, now HOW can one make a 100% unbiased decision when one is brought up as and born into a particular religion? and what are the chances that such large percentages of the global population have EXACTLY the same beliefs?? if a person was brought up completely unaware of the prospect of religion, would they automatically formulate the prospect of chirstianity or any other religion in their head?????? i do not think so. a person can live a full and complete life without religion, and what comes after (presuming there is something after), is surely determined by how they behaved in life, acted towards others and affected those around them???? if not then, what force is it that dooms people because they id not visit a 'church' once a week - a collection of bricks and mortar????? please post a reply as i would love to hear other peoples opinions.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Irisheyes will be proud of your upbringing. Such a strong Christian.

 

Very low blow, especially considering I was having the same ache in my side as you were while I read that post!

 

OK, we need some form of indicator when we are trying to be funny. It was probably my fault for not putting a smiley in there. I knew you would find it as absurd as I did, even from YOUR side of the fence.

 

But ya got to admit, they are an avid Christian. They bought it hook line and bobber. And you are an avid Christian, even if the two of you would almost totally disagree with anything past the trinity. So I thought the comment was better without the smiley. It's not a haha funny, it's a Hmmmm funny!

[servantofGod]

hello again

 

i realize how truely ignorant i did seem! don't worry, u don't have to tell me!!! i did not expect this argument to impact anyone, but only hoped. also, i did not intend a "hit and run" argument by any means. i niether had nor have the time to truely explain my thoughts.

 

however, i will quickly ask you one question. i do not by any means want to seem presumptuous, and i may anyway, and i'm also not sure how many people here are truely atheist, or just agnostic atheist. let me ask you this though. how is it that you can call me ignorant when i'm sure many people here, and perhaps a couple of you, are too narrow-minded to see the facts beyond your nose. now do not take this accusation of being narrow-minded to heart, because i do not know any of you, nor do i know what your beliefs are, and i realize that i also made myself look narrow-minded by saying Christianity is THE true religion. but how can any of you not see that there is a God, a One and Only, an eternal Superior being?! now your as far as your beliefs on what or who God is go, i will say nothing, but only pray that somehow, someway, you recieve the Word of God. if nothing of what i said applies to you, then completely disregard this message. i realize that i probably offended somebody with my last message, and i hope that i have not further done so in this one. please do not take what i say in these messages to be all of my personality, because it's not, as i'm sure what your beliefs are do not make up any of you guys' personalities either. i apologize for seeming both arrogant and ignorant in my last message, but i have not yet had time to express my true feelings. also, being a young teenager, i do realize that i have much more to learn, and to the person who sent me that e-mail, i am not afraid of education. all i meant to do was to share a small piece of my mind with you, and unfortunately, you all got to see the worst of it. if i ever have time to post again, i hope that i will have enough to share all of my beliefs.

 

please accept this message as an apology for my actions.

 

sincerely,

Andrew

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: servantofGod

hello again

 

i realize how truely ignorant i did seem! don't worry, u don't have to tell me!!!

 

Actually, yes we did. I doubt that you would have been so apologetic if you had not been called on the carpet for your post. I wonder if you would have even bothered to come back here if not seperately contacted to. But I am glad to see you at least can now recognize how the approach of your first post as so far off.

 

however, i will quickly ask you one question. i do not by any means want to seem presumptuous, and i may anyway, and i'm also not sure how many people here are truely atheist, or just agnostic atheist.

 

Are you asking a question because you are truly interested in an honest answer? Are you going to come back and discuss the answers received?

 

As to Atheist and Agnostic.

 

A "Theist" is a person that has a belief in a personal god, such Christianity, Judaism, Islam, ...

 

If someone does NOT have a belief in a personal god, they are an *A*theist. That si ALL that Atheist means. Anything else is bagage added by society and is not actually part of Atheism. e.g. a "wild child", the hypothetical infant raised by wolves or apes. Since they would be raised away from human society and it's established philosophies, that child would not have any concept of a god, As such, that child would be a NON Theist, an *A*Theist.

 

As anyone that does NOT HAVE a personal god belief is an Atheist, and since a person is born with no specific god concept inherently, EVERYONE is born an Atheist. It is only after their minds have been corrupted by an outside influence, typically parental, that they stop being an Atheist.

 

Gnostic was a form of religion that was around just before Christianity was invented. In fact it would be fairly easy to make the case that Gnostic was the foundation of Christianity. Gnost/ Gnostic means "to know" or "knowable". They believed that a god could actually be "known". that it was possible to actually prove that god existed. Thus *A*Gnostic means "NOT Gnostic", or "can't know".

 

So in reality, Theist/ Atheist and Gnostic/ Agnostic mean different aspects of a person's philosphy. The Theist/ Atheist aspect defines whether you have a personal god belief or not. While Gnostic/ Agnostic aspect states how firmly you find supporting evidence is in making that decision.

 

As such, you can actually plot a person's religious stance on an X/Y graph. One axis, say X, would be the Theist/ Atheist axis and the other, Y would be the Gnostic/ Agnostic axis. A person could be an Agnostic Theist, a person that has a personal god belief based strictly on faith, believes in a personal god even though they feel there is no proof to support it, nor can proof be found. Or they could be a Gnostic Atheist, a person that feels there is valid proof that there is NOT a god. Or any combo there of.

 

This also brings into play the "Law of Identity". If statement P is true, then P is true. If a thing, A, is A, then it is A. A = A.

 

Thus a person either IS a "Theist", or they are NOT a Theist (an *A*Theist). So if a person when asked in they believe in a personal god says they are Agnostic, they have not answered the question. They answered a different question. One involving WHY they are either an Atheist or a Theist. Whether they feel it is possible to establish with certainty WHY they are either Atheist or Theist. But "Agnostic" does NOT answer the WHICH belief question.

 

Long way to get back to the beginning, but when you state/ ask:

i'm also not sure how many people here are truely atheist

The answer is everyone that is NOT SPECIFICALLY a Theist.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: servantofGod let me ask you this though. how is it that you can call me ignorant when i'm sure many people here, and perhaps a couple of you, are too narrow-minded to see the facts beyond your nose. now do not take this accusation of being narrow-minded to heart, because i do not know any of you, nor do i know what your beliefs are, and i realize that i also made myself look narrow-minded by saying Christianity is THE true religion.

 

Well, this is an interesting twist. I am glad to hear you specifically state that "saying Christianity is THE true religion" is "narrow-minded".

 

Yes there are people here that could be considered to be narrowminded. Espcially if we agree that a narrowminded person is one that will not allow their mindset to change no matter what evidence is provided. We ahve people here that will state that they will not change their mins about god no matter what. They will flatly state that they believe in a god even though they have nothing in valid proof to support it and that nothing anyone here could possibly show them would change that. Yes that IS narrow mindedness. It is typical in Christian mindsets.

 

but how can any of you not see that there is a God, a One and Only, an eternal Superior being?

 

er, perhaps it is the OVERWHELMING LACK of proof?

 

Maybe it is the violation of logic and/ or science that is required in order to accept any of the god myths promoted?

 

Maybe it is the combination of the two?

i'm sure what your beliefs are do not make up any of you guys' personalities either.

Actually a person's "beliefs" (I don't have any... but that is a different discussion) do help to determine a person's personality. Or maybe it's the other way around. A person's personality will help determine whether they are a believer or not.

[Freethinker]

I wonder if servantofGod will show his face again?

Probably not.

[servantofGod]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

I wonder if servantofGod will show his face again?

 

Probably not.

 

oh, but i will! i do not intend to quit posting solely because i made an absolute fool of myself on my first post. i am but human. and no, freethinker, you did not need to point out to me that i made myself seem ignorant. it isn't much of a task to predict what people will think of you based on what u say. also, as you see, i am able to post frequently enough, but i am unable to set aside the time to give a very drawn out display of my thoughts.

 

also, you proved a great point about atheists. i think i will take that to heart. i enjoy reading your ideas freethinker, and i hope that we can put my first impression behind us. from what i can tell, this topic is supposed to be about peoples' beliefs/lack of beliefs on God. so i think it would be a good idea to let the topic of whether or not i am too ashamed to come back to this site and post behind us.

 

thank you,

Andrew

[ruby17]

I pity those people who dont know where they came from and what their real purpose why they are living here on earth.

 

As for the intelligent people here, well, you just believe what you want to believe according to what you call philosopical tenets...where that came from? from men... a man like you who is not perfect because no man is perfect.

 

You are wasting your time debating if there is a God or not... your intelligence keeps you from knowing the truth.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: servantofGodoh, but i will! i do not intend to quit posting ...i am able to post frequently enough, but i am unable to set aside the time to give a very drawn out display of my thoughts.{/q]

 

You showed a great deal of time commitment on your first post. And a good amount on your 2nd. I hope you will decide to invest some time going forward. I am sure we all can benefit from the additional insights.

 

also, you proved a great point about atheists. i think i will take that to heart.

 

I wish I knew which one it was! Perhaps my continual effort to get the true meaning of "Atheism" especially relative to "Agnostic", out there. AS a long time Atheist, I find it is extremely hard to even enter into a discussion about beliefs becauase the terms Atheist/ Agnostic is so misused and misrepresented.

 

i enjoy reading your ideas freethinker, and i hope that we can put my first impression behind us.

 

I hope you can continue to "enjoy" them as I critically evaulate your assertions. I find that believers are not always tolerant of their beliefs being challenged once they find them to not be as solid as they originally thought.

 

from what i can tell, this topic is supposed to be about peoples' beliefs/lack of beliefs on God. so i think it would be a good idea to let the topic of whether or not i am too ashamed to come back to this site and post behind us.

 

You may also want to check out some of the other related topics.

 

Evolution vs Religion

 

What would it take to prove the existence of a God?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: ruby17

I pity those people who dont know where they came from and what their real purpose why they are living here on earth.

 

I pity people that know so little that they actually think they CAN KNOW "what their real purpose" in life is. I pity people that have such a closed mind that they think the answer is predetermined. I pity people that have no ability, or desire, to develop their own purpose and eventual outcome in their lives. How empty their lives will be.

 

As for the intelligent people here, well, you just believe what you want to believe according to what you call philosopical tenets...where that came from? from men... a man like you who is not perfect because no man is perfect.

 

Interesting that you obviously do not consider yourself to be intellegent. As your comment obviously promotes that "the intelligent people here" are the ones that do not hold a god myth.

 

No, humans are NOT perfect. Nothing is. Just like the men that invented any and all of the religions and religious beleifs that there have been throughout history. At least those of us that reject these antiquated superstitions can correct the failings represented by these antiquated superstitions.

 

You are wasting your time debating if there is a God or not... your intelligence keeps you from knowing the truth.

 

I see, so WE are wasting our time discussing this with you! Yes, if this is all you have to offer, you are wasting everyone's time. Those of us that are carrying on a reason based discussion never waste time doing so.

[Freethinker]

ops

[sundog]

My thoughts on the bible.

 

I cannot take what is written in the bible literally. For me it is too wide open to interpretation. It's 2000 years old and after writing, it has been translated and rewritten, I don't know how many times. The point is, I wonder how much of that 'original' story remains.

 

 

 

To the christians I pose this-

 

Do you believe the story/teachings of the bible have:-

 

1) lost 'nothing' through time and translation.

 

2) lost a little but retain the main concept.

 

3) lost a significant portion, but today's interpretation is satisfactory?

 

4) Other. (If so, what?)

 

 

 

sundog

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: sundogI wonder how much of that 'original' story remains.

I'm glad you brought it up. Sometimes a biblical literalist will try to cover errors in the bible by claiming it is a translation error. That the "original text" does not have the error.

 

But when I ask them to show me ANY "original texts" they get upset. They never bother to consider that there is no such thing as "original texts"! And we have written evidence that what is there, has been changed intentionally along the line. Written by those that made the changes quite often.

 

So when you want to reference some "original story", we first have to understand there there never was one. What we have today is a patchwork quilt of many stories from all different time periods. Assembled as a snapshot of the thinking of the time. e.g. the Christian Jesus had all the same traits any other savior of the day had. And there were a number of them. Lots of virgin births, sons' of god, miracle workers, adored then tortured and killed, a number on trees or crosses (wood was big!) and came back to life. This one just got written down and started using terror and murder to spred it's dogma. And now it's using it's power to suppress the advancement of society. So what was the original story? Or better still, how could there have been one?