GOD

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Also, I think it's rather amusing that the Christian keeps having to remind the atheist to stop talking about God. For someone who spends so much energy fighting against Christianity and God, you sure do spend a lot of time drawing attention to both.

I don't find it amusing at all. But then I am forced by Christians to follow their arbitray way of doing things on a daily basis. You just think it is normal. My right to freely exist in your, as well self proclaimed, "Christian Country" is challenged continually. I am forced to pass ads for your attempt in establishing a Theocracy with every direct monetary transaction I perform. Even though it is specifically outlawed in both the US and my States Constitutions, I am forced to fund religious orgs. My Public Schools systems directly pays for many Religious schools infrastucture costs and we are told this allows for free competition?

 

Now Christians want to put a law in the constitution for the first time in it's history that is intentionally prejudicial to a group of people. As if it is the place of the Federal Government to decide what two people want to call their relationship, and from a 1st Amendment basis, to tell a religious org, a church, whether they can provide a religious service or not. Religious people should be outraged. Instead they want to vote it into law!

 

And you don't think these issues are part of a discussion on how the US government works and how it interacts with society?

 

There are 6 states in the US in which I am not allowed to hold office. What happened to "No religious test shall be required..?" In Arkansas I can not even testify at my own trial! Today, in 2004! In Texas people have been jailed for accepting Jury Duty and then refusing to swear to a god.

 

Our UN policy is based on we only pay our promised annual dues, if they stop promoting the use of condoms to help solve the world wide AIDs apidemic. And the only excuse is religious based. And this is not part of the discussion on Global issues?

 

So no, I don't find it amusing that you see nothing wrong with this situation and don't think it should be openly discussed in other threads. I find it part of the very problem. It is safer for the Christian to keep the discussion off of the table than in the open. As long as there is a base acceptance of Christianity being benefitial, let's not look closer! Let's keep it out of the discussion. Even though it is the primary reason given for the other issue choices.

 

I just happen to be one of those few that will drag it out and shine a light on it.

 

What bothers Christians is the results of that exposure. They don't like what they themselves see. Don't look behind the curtain.

[Freethinker]

Have a nice weekend :-)

[BEAKER]

Hey Freethinker,

 

You gotta learn to relax, man.

[crin]

If anyone here believes in any kind of "Good" or "Bad", I would like to put something to them; there are 2 things they may believe;

 

1 Good and Bad may be things of their own opinion (like preferring, say, beer to cider), so if the human race had never existed, or if someone did not witness you doing a good action, there is no good or bad. If this is the case what I'm saying doesn't concern you.

 

2 They believe Good and Bad are real. It follows there may not be any correlation between what is Good/Bad and what evolution has taught us to be enjoyable (i.e Gene-sustaining). So Good is actually Right and Bad is actually mistaken. But the moment they say this, they are putting a third thing in the universe in addition to Good and Bad; some law or standard of which Good is right to be Good and Bad is wrong to be Bad. If a (wo)man does not see something or you doing something, it/you are neither good or bad by his/her opinion. But if you do something then this standard must apply to you, for what you've done is either Good or Bad. And no human in his/her right mind would call this thing "deaf", "dumb", or "blind", for then Good and Bad are meaningless, which is a contradiction.

 

 

 

 

 

It is because so many people believe 2 that you will never be able to kill religion. The human mass always wants some purpose (call it "weakness" if you like, but be on your guard they don't reply that, if you call it a weakness, then there is no such thing as "weakness"). I wouldn't be surprised if dolphins and chimps are on the brink of religion. If so, it would be well established in humans. Then belief in God would be practically genetic

 

I admit there is no evidence to believe in Good or Bad and it is 50-50. But then, is there any evidence that all our every sense and thought is not flawed? Your brain may just be going haywire. It is technically 50-50. You believe it simply because you will do infinitely better if it is true than not. You will do infinitely better if Good and Bad are true too.

[crin]

Freethinker, the statistics actually go 40% of scientists are atheists (not sure what date but somewhere from 1990 to 2003) and 40% atheists in 1900 as well. And MOST scientists say that it is beyond human knowledge. Check for more famous scientists apart from Einstein, Newton, and Darwin, freethinker. You'll be suprised at how many believe in God AS WELL as them. Not in the Old testament or in the whole Christian Doctrine, but in God. Even I do not believe in the WHOLE Bible. Out of the 3 people I knew personally (went to my 6th form) who study in Oxford and Cambridge now, all of them are Christians.

 

And I did not say that if you are more scientific you are more likely to believe in God. I said that you realised such things were beyond science. But, wanting atheism to be true, you imagined it. Just as, wanting parts of Christianity to be true, I imagine things you say. Why don't we both just calm down and study the evidence in an unbiased way. Would that be a bad thing?

[BEAKER]

If I steal all that you have, and beat you sensless, and leave you dying in a gutter; is that good for me? Is that bad for you? Or does it really matter at all?

 

Will you lie there bleeding, happy that I was able to be the dominant overcomer - good for me; while you are breathing your last breath? Will you not think...

 

"Now this is bad."?

[Tim_Lou]

"If I steal all that you have, and beat you sensless, and leave you dying in a gutter; is that good for me? Is that bad for you? Or does it really matter at all?

"

 

my opinon: because it is not good to yourself to be stolen by somebody else, and being left and getting killed in a gutter, it will not be right for you to apply it to others...

 

never do something bad to somebody if you dont want somebody do the "something" to yourself...

[BEAKER]

That sounds just like what Jesus said; "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

 

But how can that be when we can't even prove He existed? (at least not according to Freethinker).

 

I know, it's those hidden nameless writers from the past that conspired together to write a book that would keep the masses under control.

 

Or maybe Jesus actually said it after all.

 

It's certainly worth remembering.

[Aki]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

 

 

never do something bad to somebody if you dont want somebody do the "something" to yourself...

 

"what goes around, comes back around"

[crin]

Anyway, I'm not going to go on the internet much more. The thing is taking up all my time. I may come back briefly but probably not. I'll leave my last piece of evidence;

 

My elder brother Tom died when I was young, too young to understand what death was (about 3-5, Tom was 14). He was the nicest person I knew. I thought he had just been sent to hospital.

At birth, he apparently had some kind of breathing problem. Just coming out of my Mum's womb, he started to go blue. The doctors were all in another room, so my Dad was the only one watching (he is in fact quite a well-respected doctor, but was only there cos his son was being born). What he did is he shut his eyes and prayed. He prayed really, really hard; "God, please let this child live". He said he had never, ever, concentrated so much in his life, and it seemed like an eternity. But the blue left Tom's face. My Dad never said this to my Mum, or to anyone, until after Tom's death.

 

I can understand you not taking this as evidence and just as a coincidence. What strikes me as evidence is what happened after;

 

About a week before Tom's death, my Mum was at church with my eldest brother, Paul, and Tom. Tom had had problems before this. He suffered from depression attacks and had just been sent to a new school. He said there were times when he felt God's love and times when he didn't. When he was young my Mum used to have nightmares about him drowning and her being behind a fence, unable to get to him.

Now in church, when praying about Tom, my Mum suddenly had a really weird feeling. She told me she felt as though God had picked her up in strong arms and cradled her as if she were nothing but a baby. He said things were going to get very, very, bad in the time coming, but afterwards it would be better.

"Oh, OK," thought my Mum, "He's going to get depressed about his new school and his problems, but then he'll get over it and things will take a sharp turn for the better. No problem". It was about a week later that Tom died by jumping out of the train on the way home from school. My whole family was distraught, though I was too young to understand. I still don't understand how things have got/will get, better, but I can't help feeling I have every reason to trust.

 

 

The things I told you before are other pieces of evidence I found after this but this is main reason I believe in God is this.

[sunofindia]

well this topic is actually intresting. as fariam concerned i don beleive in religion.by religion iam a hindu.but one thing all iam sure is that "god" is nothing but our terminology to represent "infinite energy".

u may get a doubt then wat for all these religions and holy books.i think that those probably wer written by our ancestors to tell us how a man should behave and how a man should act in society , how a man should have communal harmony, how a man should marry, adn all such things. those wer told just to make us know and they also help us in meeting once again without forgetting our relation ships.for eg:wen its a marriage we all will get 2gether and enjoy that time.

for all of u kno that "all the religions preach the same point." that is to " serve mankind" or better "serve nature"

i think its quite foolish to sit and fight for religions and waste ourtime in life wich is very short.

so i think all we have to do is "enjoy life to the fullest" but " live and let live"

wat do u all say

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: BEAKER

Hey Freethinker,

 

You gotta learn to relax, man.

That's no fun! :-)

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes 10/29/2004 12:38 PM

That's fine. You have about 20 hours left to argue about this.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: crin

If anyone here believes in any kind of "Good" or "Bad", I would like to put something to them; there are 2 things they may believe;

This is the fallacy of Bifurcation. The unsupportable claim that there are only two possible stances when there can be many more. Often used to invent support for a god belief, as we see here. But then god supports are typically one form of fallacy or other. Let's explore this one.

1 Good and Bad may be things of their own opinion (like preferring, say, beer to cider),

Show us ANY good/ bad claim that is not a personal decision and can not change based on the environment at the time. e.g I prefer a hot cider after being outside in the winter shoveling snow, but perhaps a beer on a hot day.

so if the human race had never existed,

Granted the concept of good/ bad is a human construction. Though any species can be shown to follow good/ bad actions. And what one species might follow, which has shown an evolutionary advantage to that species, might be contradicted by another. The ultimate objective determination of whether a specific action is good or bad (for that species) is continued survival of that species.

or if someone did not witness you doing a good action, there is no good or bad.

Now you are claiming that the good/ bad assignment requires an outside 3rd party agent. That someone can not do a "good" (or bad) thing unless someone else has determined it to be so. What if someone saw a board with nails sticking up in the raod. They stopped and picked it up while no one was watching. Had they not, it could have caused a tragic accident. It was obviously a "good" action (had positive benefit) even though no one but that person knew they did it.

2 They believe Good and Bad are real. It follows there may not be any correlation between what is Good/Bad and what evolution has taught us to be enjoyable (i.e Gene-sustaining).

There are many actions which are "enjoyable", but are harmful to "gene-sustaining". Many people find excessive drinking or heavy drug use to be "enjoyable", yet can have a definate negative impact on their ability to pass their gentics along.

So Good is actually Right and Bad is actually mistaken. But the moment they say this, they are putting a third thing in the universe in addition to Good and Bad; some law or standard of which Good is right to be Good and Bad is wrong to be Bad.

Since any specific action can be good at some times and bad at others, any claim to an outside objective absolute source is erroneous.

It is because so many people believe 2

This is called the Fallacy of argumentum ad numerum. The claim that the more people that believe something, the correct it is. Facts, Truth, ... does not depend on votes. The beliefs of the masses shift over time and at best align with objective outcome of results. But do not determine which is which. Other than personal opinion.

that you will never be able to kill religion.

Yes. It is likely, just by statistical probablity, that some people will always require such an addiction/ excuse. This does not mean it is a good thing.

The human mass always wants some purpose

The number one activity of the brain is pattern matching. "Purpose" fits this perfectly. Ys we are hardwired to "find purpose". This does not in any way support a claim of an outside 3rd party agent being needed to provide "purpose".

I wouldn't be surprised if dolphins and chimps are on the brink of religion. If so, it would be well established in humans. Then belief in God would be practically genetic

Dolphins, chi

[Tormod]

Okay. 381 posts in one topic is about the limit, I think. Closing this down now. Move on folks, nothing to see here.